The Clinton vs. Trump Debates Talkback!


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MeriDoc- wrote:

If you follow the post line upwards, you will see to what I am referring. You may haved joined in at the end of that topic and missed it.

Regarding your topic
Trump has displayed the ability to run a sizable company, so yes.

Running a successful business is not at all like running a government. Even if it was...see previous comments that dispute him being a "successful" businessman.

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Misroi wrote:
Agreed. I'd like someone who makes the claim that Trump is a successful business man point out which of his businesses support that claim.

As it happens, the New York Times addressed that question this morning.

STEVE EDER and ALICIA PARLAPIANO wrote:
Of the roughly 60 endeavors started or promoted by Mr. Trump during the period analyzed, [roughly one] third, while sometimes encountering strife, generally met expectations — notably the television show “The Apprentice” and the purchases of numerous golf courses, including properties near Philadelphia and in the Hudson Valley.

Looking specifically at real estate, 7 projects of 27 were successful, specifically his Palm Beach home, the Trump Parc Stamford, Miami's Doral Hotel, the Trump Towers Mall Istanbul, Trump Towers Pune (India), Trump International Realty, and Trump Vineyard Estate. Of course, this also implies that 20 were not successful (the NYT describes 12 as "didn't work out" and 8 as "had problems").

8 of 14 of his golf ventures "measured up," as did 5 of 13 of his media ventures, as did one of his 7 consumer goods ventures (the Trump Signature Collection of menswear).

And basically, what the story tells us is that Trump didn't care if any of these ventures worked out or were even commercially viable.

The New York Times wrote:


In interviews, Mr. Trump disputed some of the characterizations, saying that, among other things, some projects that might appear to be failures were successes, for him at least, because he often made his money upfront, through fees for the use of the Trump name. The bottom line of all the hits and misses, however, is impossible to determine because Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, has not released any tax returns.

If we give him the best possible blush, counting all businesses that either measured up or had problems as successes, then just over 61% of his businesses were profitable. If we only give him half credit for businesses that had problems, then just over 48% were profitable. That all sounds good, but we don't know the exact numbers, and this is purely conjecture. And if Trump was as smart as he claims, if he was as shrewd a businessman as he claims, then why do fully half of the businesses he starts up fail? Sounds like he's an average businessman to me at best.

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Ryuko wrote:


He's a conman, a shyster. He's been gaming every system for so long he's forgotten it's not a game for the people he ruins.

I took the bait and answered your question. You can imagine what you like. He takes risks, they win/lose - typical venture capital loses 9/10 times. If you can run a company without any risk - you should try to get it funded. I've lost twice on customers due to bankruptcy over a period of 25years. Assess risk, take your losses, and move on.


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MeriDoc- wrote:
Trump has displayed the ability to run a sizable company, so yes.

...right into the ground. And more than once.

Not only was Trump born on third base, but resents the fact that he had to play in the first place.


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MeriDoc- wrote:
I took the bait and answered your question. You can imagine what you like. He takes risks, they win/lose - typical venture capital loses 9/10 times. If you can run a company without any risk - you should try to get it funded. I've lost twice on customers due to bankruptcy over a period of 25years. Assess risk, take your losses, and move on.

Only he takes risks with other's people's money. He's not playing by the rules that you imagine he is.


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MeriDoc- wrote:
Ryuko wrote:


He's a conman, a shyster. He's been gaming every system for so long he's forgotten it's not a game for the people he ruins.

I took the bait and answered your question. You can imagine what you like. He takes risks, they win/lose - typical venture capital loses 9/10 times.

Yes, but building a new hotel is not usually considered to be "venture capital"; the element of risk should be much lower, precisely because the market is extremely well understood, the cost structure is known in advance, and running a hotel is sufficiently scientific that you can get degrees in it.

It's one thing to introduce a completely new product that will, if successful, revolutionize the market; it's another thing entirely to build a hotel in a city like Atlantic City, which has basically been paved with hotels for more than 150 years.

This is particularly true since Trump and his backers have, for all intents and purposes, unlimited capital, and most VC-based projects fail, not because the project itself fails, but because the VCs turn off the tap before it can show a profit (the so-called "Valley of Death").

Of course, Trump more or less admits that he has no interest in hanging around long enough for his business ventures to make a profit; he's only interested in renting his name for a quick buck. As the NYT put it, "[Trump said that] some projects that might appear to be failures were successes, for him at least, because he often made his money upfront, through fees for the use of the Trump name." Again, this isn't behavior I would associate with a successful businessman, since it doesn't actually show the ability to run a successful business. It's basically the structure of a fly-by-night con artist. It shows the ability to raise funds, and the ability to structure contracts to fleece lots of money quickly from the bagholders and then get out of the project quickly.

If Trump is a successful businessman, so is Professor Harold Hill from The Music Man.

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MMCJawa wrote:


Running a successful business is not at all like running a government. Even if it was...see previous comments that dispute him being a "successful" businessman.

I see no dispute. I answered the question posed. You can view his achievements anyway you like. VC's operate on 9 losses to 1 win. If his batting average puts him the black over time, its a normal business. A bankruptcy (of a client) knocked one of my companies out. I got up and started again. (I should have declared bankruptcy, but decided to pay my creditors back.) Maybe I made the wrong call, but its my call.

So when I hear those politicians telling me what I didn't do, my response is, "I paid for all those infrastructure projects, and then paid for all your double dealing time wasting favors, pork barrel projects, and slush funds (to your friends) on top of that. Don't tell me what I didn't build until you clean up your own messes."

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bugleyman wrote:


Only he takes risks with other's people's money. He's not playing by the rules that you imagine he is.

So when you go out for VC funding, you're putting some of your own money in first (or your levering something you have.) But depending on the type of project you're running the majority of it through investment.

If you want to consider a criminal aspect of business look at government. They sit on the sidelines and take a sizable share of any profit. If you're business is in a target market, they have specialized taxes, licenses, and fees for you. They may even decide you're big enough to hire one of their friends to examine (or approve) how your business is run. If you pay them off (through campaign contributions) they'll probably leave you alone - unless they feel its more useful to attack you openly.

Sounds more like the mafia.


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MeriDoc- wrote:

So when you go out for VC funding, you're putting some of your own money in first (or your levering something you have.) But depending on the type of project you're running the majority of it through investment.

If you want to consider a criminal aspect of business look at government. They sit on the sidelines and take a sizable share of any profit. If you're business is in a target market, they have specialized taxes, licenses, and fees for you. They may even decide you're big enough to hire one of their friends to examine (or approve) how your business is run. If you pay them off (through campaign contributions) they'll probably leave you alone - unless they feel its more useful to attack you openly.

Sounds more like the mafia.

Except the government acts for and by the will of the people, for the collective good, while businesses act for their own enrichment. Obviously government isn't perfect, and abuses occur, but the purpose and goals of government are drastically different from those of a business (legitimate or otherwise). As such, the government is afforded certain powers not available to private industry. And rightly so.


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MeriDoc- wrote:
So when I hear those politicians telling me what I didn't do, my response is, "I paid for all those infrastructure projects, and then paid for all your double dealing time wasting favors, pork barrel projects, and slush funds (to your friends) on top of that. Don't tell me what I didn't build until you clean up your own messes."

Look, I sympathize. Government can and does get out of control. But surely you realize that your business benefits from services provided by the government? Public schools, the highway system, courts, jails, police, firefighters, food and transportation safety, etc. Yes, you help pay for those things TODAY. But your businesses benefited from all of them from the moment they existed, and you personally benefited before that. Is it really so unreasonable to expect that you and your businesses pay taxes now? Or do you imagine that your view of the "free market" is somehow the natural state of mankind, existing with no social contract? Because I assure you it isn't. :P

Sorry if it seems like I'm overly critical, but your implied argument that taxes = theft is one I've simply never understood. Or perhaps I misunderstood?

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MeriDoc- wrote:


So when I hear those politicians telling me what I didn't do, my response is, "I paid for all those infrastructure projects, and then paid for all your double dealing time wasting favors, pork barrel projects, and slush funds (to your friends) on top of that. Don't tell me what I didn't build until you clean up your own messes."

So you want to continue the tradition by paying for a wall?


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bugleyman wrote:
MeriDoc- wrote:
I took the bait and answered your question. You can imagine what you like. He takes risks, they win/lose - typical venture capital loses 9/10 times. If you can run a company without any risk - you should try to get it funded. I've lost twice on customers due to bankruptcy over a period of 25years. Assess risk, take your losses, and move on.
Only he takes risks with other's people's money. He's not playing by the rules that you imagine he is.

Though I strongly disagree and think Trump is a quite poor businessman, that isn't the point. Trump does take substantial risks, often with poor chances of recouping the money invested, but if he loses his investors' money, that's their problem... and to a certain extent, the rest of us taxpayers who pick up his tax tab that he writes off as a loss.

Trump's "business" mindset and and known track record are strong clear evidence he should not be allowed to risk the lives of our soldiers and innocent civilians around the world. He has amply demonstrated he should not be allowed to risk the economy and social progress of this country. Trump isn't qualified to run Sealand, let alone an actual country.


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most importantly, if trump fails as a president...he can't just declare bankruptcy for the country and walk away no harm no foul, only leaving a a few investors and contractors in a lurch. No, failing as president could mean crashing the economy or dragging us into a war that will cost American lives. The stakes between running a business and running a country are not comparable.


Pan wrote:
MeriDoc- wrote:


So when I hear those politicians telling me what I didn't do, my response is, "I paid for all those infrastructure projects, and then paid for all your double dealing time wasting favors, pork barrel projects, and slush funds (to your friends) on top of that. Don't tell me what I didn't build until you clean up your own messes."
So you want to continue the tradition by paying for a wall?

A wall that is shown to be financially unviable, will not accomplish it's objective, and will in fact cause more illegal immigrants to remain in the nation?

Seriously, most of our illegal immigrants are not sneaking across our border, they're flying in legally on work visas and staying after they expire. They usually go home after a certain amount of time with their money to help their families, but once they can't get back? They just stop bothering to go home and stay here.


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MeriDoc- wrote:
VC's operate on 9 losses to 1 win.

Orfamay already beat me to "venture capital is very different from real estate development" so I'll just add "and I'm sure you realize that."

I'll also add that the ratio you advance, nine to one failures, seems likely spurious.

WSJ cites several statistics here and boils it down to three to one. In the same article WSJ notes that industry sources claim about 2: 2: 1 as the lose: break-even: win ratio.


Lost Legions wrote:
Pan wrote:
MeriDoc- wrote:


So when I hear those politicians telling me what I didn't do, my response is, "I paid for all those infrastructure projects, and then paid for all your double dealing time wasting favors, pork barrel projects, and slush funds (to your friends) on top of that. Don't tell me what I didn't build until you clean up your own messes."
So you want to continue the tradition by paying for a wall?

A wall that is shown to be financially unviable, will not accomplish it's objective, and will in fact cause more illegal immigrants to remain in the nation?

Seriously, most of our illegal immigrants are not sneaking across our border, they're flying in legally on work visas and staying after they expire. They usually go home after a certain amount of time with their money to help their families, but once they can't get back? They just stop bothering to go home and stay here.

Long ago, most of the illegal immigrants were basically seasonal labor. They'd come in, work the harvest and go home to their families. Increased border security made it harder to cross, so they started staying, settling down, bringing families across to join them.

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So how do you all think Anderson Cooper is going to handle moderating the second one tonight?


Won't anyone think to call Sean Hannity!!


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MeriDoc- wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:


Running a successful business is not at all like running a government. Even if it was...see previous comments that dispute him being a "successful" businessman.

I see no dispute. I answered the question posed. You can view his achievements anyway you like. VC's operate on 9 losses to 1 win. If his batting average puts him the black over time, its a normal business. A bankruptcy (of a client) knocked one of my companies out. I got up and started again. (I should have declared bankruptcy, but decided to pay my creditors back.) Maybe I made the wrong call, but its my call.

So when I hear those politicians telling me what I didn't do, my response is, "I paid for all those infrastructure projects, and then paid for all your double dealing time wasting favors, pork barrel projects, and slush funds (to your friends) on top of that. Don't tell me what I didn't build until you clean up your own messes."

Trump doesn't pay his creditors. In fact, he doesn't even pay his contractors.

Trump's SOP (when he still built things), was to hire contractors, then once they completed the work, stop making payments. He'd stiff them on as many payments as he could get away with. He liked to hire smaller contractors, cause they wouldn't have the operating capital to spend on lawyers to come after him.

Also, Trump enjoys sexually assaulting women.


Edith Lovejoy wrote:
Won't anyone think to call Sean Hannity!!

I started listening to the 'Keepin' it 1600' podcast, at the end of a recent episode they called Sean Hannity. He hung up on them.


Debate number 2 is about to begin. A desperate Trump is bringing 3 women who accused Bill Clinton of inappropriate actions. Is Trump aware that Bill's wife Hillary is running for President, and not him? I cannot wait to hear Hillary's response. Trump may try to grab her you know what...


Trump is exploiting a child rape victim to distract you from the fact he was caught on tape confessing to sexually assault women.

I've never reached this point before in politics but Trump is human scum. If you still support him at this point, then you are a bad person.


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Lets get ready to RuuUUUUUMBLE


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If they're in the audience, I wonder if they're prepped to disrupt the debate by standing up and interrupting Clinton with accusations while she's speaking?

I'm sure Trump would love the visual of his supporters being "censored" and removed from the debate.


Hillary is prepared and she has a surprise card up her sleeve. I mean she literally has a card with stuff written on it. She also has people in the audience with a story to tell.


CrystalSeas wrote:

If they're in the audience, I wonder if they're prepped to disrupt the debate by standing up and interrupting Clinton with accusations while she's speaking?

I'm sure Trump would love the visual of his supporters being "censored" and removed from the debate.

The thing with theatrics is that it magnifies someones already held opinion of you. If you are liked and theatrical its crazy awesome. If people don't like you and you try it you just look crazy.

Trump has probably dipped below the public perception he'd need to pull that off with anyone but his most diehard supporters.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Trump has probably dipped below the public perception he'd need to pull that off with anyone but his most diehard supporters.

I'm not suggesting that it would be effective in getting people to vote for him.

But I'm not sure that he's even capable of thinking that clearly right now. He seems to be in a Barbarian Rage and there's no logic to what he's doing tonight.

I think he's going down, and he's taking everyone he can with him, especially the Clintons


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SOON


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*Sets out bottles of vodka for everyone*

All right, let's do this. o wo/


[Does a shot]

I predict Trump is escorted out by security in the second half...

Liberty's Edge

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How does the man facing an active rape charge, former allegations of rape by his own wife, and his recorded comments about committing sexual assaults on women think that this is a winning topic that he should focus on?


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SECRETS AND LIES RETURNS NEXT WEEK AT ITS REGULAR TIMES

uh I am pretty sure we are getting a lot of lies tonight

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No handshake? Trump looks thrilled to be here.


Trump starts... mild. Hm. Let's see how this goes.

Edit: I think his sniffles are back...

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The first two minutes from Trump seem almost like he's been fed some humble pie.

Edit: Well, they certainly went for the current topic quickly.


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I hear this is like medieval times? "rolls up Ranger"


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Nobody has greater respect for women


Trump's having a hard time staying on topic. XD

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He's sniffing again.

Is he sick? Is he coked up? How do you do the same thing in both debates?

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Why is he interrupting so little?


Firm notice after the disaster of the VP debate, maybe?


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he kind of sounds exhausted...


Also, Trump says he has great respect for people - when he barges into ladies' locker rooms for "inspections".

Hmm.

Not buying it. XD

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Snuffleupagus?


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Hillary has some great facial expressions

Also special prosecutor? seriously? flips table


Oh wow, now Trump's threatening a special prosecutor for his political opponent. *Tosses popcorn into mouth*


CBDunkerson wrote:
How does the man facing an active rape charge, former allegations of rape by his own wife, and his recorded comments about committing sexual assaults on women think that this is a winning topic that he should focus on?

Textbook narcicism


Trumps already losing it, he should be REALLY entertaining in the middle of the night.


Trump: Thirty-three thousand, thirty-three thousand, be ashamed, be ashamed, subpoena, subpoena. o no


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Here comes the interrupting...

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