RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Against smart enemies, it doesn't do all that much (because they'll quickly decide to deal bludgeoning, or to attack someone else). Against dumb or mindless enemies, or PFS creatures with forced tactics, the damage potential is a bit silly.
That said, I'd be more worried about a Magus with Greater Invis (which makes him near-impossible to hit for most enemies) or Dimension Door (which deals impressive amounts of damage combined with spell combat).
This is not experience based, but maybe it helps with your sorrows.
It does seem very powerful, but it does have some drawbacks compared to fire shield.
- Fire shield triggers on every ATTACK, this spell only on ever HIT (And magi don't usually have THAT many HP, in my experience they tank via mirror image and blur)
- It does not work against bludgeoning damage.
- Also it does NOT only trigger on melee attacks. Bows do piercing damage. If your player has this spell up and the situation on the field is like this for example:
P X A X X X X E (P= player, X = empty field, A = Ally, E = Enemy w/ a bow)
This would SERIOUSLY ruin the day for the ally.
Sure, it's a corner case, but it might come up, especially if you have an enemy who's done some research in the groups tactics.
If the player were to be attacked with a bow and the acid would NOT hit anyone, I as the GM would keep a close eye on what the 10d6 acid does to their surroundings, especially since the spell explicitly states that it damages objects.
The player better not get caught on a rope bridge with that spell up...
Also, average damage for a CR9 Monster is 30-40, and 10d6 does 35 on average, so he would only be giving quid pro quo with the option of halved damage for the attacker.
Additionally, acid resistance is not an uncommon thing among monsters of CR9 and up.
Powerful, yes. Gamebreaking, no.
Well, dimension door is subjects/3 CL plus yourself. So I imagine the extra damage is the whole party effectively using "pounce".
Eventually, Dimensional Assault becomes a thing.
Well, dimension door is subjects/3 CL plus yourself. So I imagine the extra damage is the whole party effectively using "pounce".Eventually, Dimensional Assault becomes a thing.Dimensional assault is incompatible with spell combat.
Perhaps you meant dimensional dervish.
Yes, that is the one.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
- interesting points. Again it's a metagming thing, but gr. inv. seems to be less effective at higher level in our groups, since we seem to encounter a lot that appear to have see inv. or true seeing.
That's why you have knowledge skills. Use the right buff for the right situation.
- I have a side question: you mention lot of damage with dimension door and spell combat: How do you get to that? I understand that with S.C. you cast DD and then full attack, but magus don't do that many damages without other spells to boost their damage. How does DD helps you increase that??
Even without spells, you could set your sword to flaming+freezing+shocking for an extra 3d6 damage, or activate a bane baldric, or use a bladebound's damage boost.
Getting as many full attacks as possible is something the Magus is good at.
So, it's a pretty good spell but...
It only deals damage when you are hit and dealt damage, specifically with a piercing or slashing weapon. An enemy can use bludgeoning weapons to avoid it or ignore you for a bit to focus on others. Thanks to that one FAQ about using "flat of the blade" and what not they can even choose to use a weapon improvised to deal bludgeoning damage instead of a normal damage type. So there are several instances were you might only get this spell to work once after casting, especially if an enemy can identify it with spell craft.
Beyond all that, the spell allows a save for half damage on initial damage and a save to complete negate the damage from the secondary effect.
Further creatures with 15ft reach just don't care about your caustic blood, it can't them. The blood spray only goes 10ft, they can attack you with impunity. Getting 15ft reach is pretty easy.
It's a good spell, but it's also got a lot of weak points that can be exploited.
@ Cuttler: How are any of my examples Metagaming? Metagaming is using out-of-game knoledge in game without the PC/NPC having justifiable access to it.
A reasonably smart enemy could easily figure most of my points out after one round of "HOLY F**K THIS GUYS BLOOD KILLS US IF WE MAKE HIM BLEED!!!"
If PCs encountered an enemy who had this ability, they would also change their tactics accordingly.
- "look, the blood only goes so far, if we stay clear, we're cool"
(use reach)
- "Hey, if the wounds don't bleed, there's no blood to kill us"
(use bludgeoning or spells)
- "Hey, how about we try to make his blood hit his friends, archers, concentrate fire"
Are all reasonable thoughts/decisions for an NPC in battle. I would maybe put in some perception or intelligence checks for the enemies, but that's about it.
Of course all of this only comes into play if none of the enemies succeeded on their spellcraft check to identify his spell being cast and just tells his allies "Don't cut him, his blood kills" as a 6 word free action.
If you have an actual Big Bad and not a series of random encounters, the intel about the players tactics should filter back to him eventually anyway.
If the players only meet one group after the next of mindless and/or stupid enemies with no intel gathering skills, then this spell is going to kick major a**.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not a long-lasting spell, so you kind of need to cast it in combat, not before. Which means you're losing at least one standard action, on the hope that people will hit you with the right kind of weapons and not be resistant to acid. And not hit you too hard in the process. That's a lot of Ifs.
If it all works it's hilarious of course. But I've always been skeptical of spells and abilities that require enemies to hurt you first, because that's not actually something you should be allowing to happen. You'd have an ability that you were trying to prevent from triggering.
Caustic Blood is intense enough that it just might be worth it, but it's still rowing against the current.
It's better on classes that don't need to use a standard action to cast it. So, good for a magus, warpriest and bloodrager.
Or a druid who can get it significantly earlier than most and who might be in the thick of the fight quite often.
Generally if you can make the enemy switch to an improvised weapon that's a sufficient debuff to make the spell worthwhile on its own. It's great for melee druids. It doesn't solve their problem with being shot to pieces, they'll need to look elsewhere to deal with that.
|
|
It's better on classes that don't need to use a standard action to cast it. So, good for a magus, warpriest and bloodrager.
I guess. I couldn't get any mileage out of it as a bomber alchemist. It'll be interesting for my future magus though, I was gonna make that one different from the usual shocking grasp build anyway.
It's also worth noting that this spell requires a vial of black adder venom as a material component. Assuming that's equivalent to 1 dose of poison, you're looking at 120 gold a pop - not incredibly expensive by 10th level, but not exactly chump change either. If your WBL is below average, you might have issues.
Material components without a specific cost listed are effectively free and require only having a spell component pouch (which effectively has an infinite amount of all spell components inside). This is total a rules things which breaks down any sense of realism, but it also to help the game not get bogged down by minutia. You also can't covert those vials of venom into an actual dose of black adder poison.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Material components without a specific cost listed are effectively free and require only having a spell component pouch (which effectively has an infinite amount of all spell components inside). This is total a rules things which breaks down any sense of realism,
Nah.
Spell components break down any sense of realism, because seriously have you looked at them? Most of them are incredibly lame puns on what the spell does, that for some reason have been copied over all the way since first edition D&D.
Any rule that lets you ignore those entirely is an improvement to realism. The rule isn't really "hey, a 5gp pouch holds an infinite amount of stuff", but "hey, for a negligible amount of cash you can ignore a pointless outdated rule that has no reason for existence any more".
Not entirely true, having your pouch stolen or sundered or otherwise be inaccessible can stop you casting spells with a material component.
But yeah, your statement is mostly accurate.
The only problem with your statement is that as a rule, material components with an expensive price are specifically listed in spell component line, see Wish as an example. If it does not have a price listed it has a negligible cost.
If Paizo wants to clarify and change that in some spells and list a component price thats fine by me, but without one listed it has always been assumed to be negligible. I do agree that some spell components do seem like they should have a cost listed, but if they don't then they don't. If we a community would like that changed we should bring to the attention of the developers which spells seems like they should have expensive material components and ask them re-evaluate the price of the component and if it should be included in the spell components line.
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
To throw on my input, I don't see this being particularly unbalanced.
For starters, enemies could be behind an ally and attack you with a reach weapon (or with reach in general); the acid spray is what deals the damage, and the lines say that it has a 10 foot reach (meaning creatures with 15+ feet of reach don't have to worry about it), and it travels from your square in a straight line toward the direction of the creature that attacked you, affecting the first creature in said line. Remember when I said that enemy is behind your ally? Well, now they're using your own defense against your party, as any smart enemy should. Quite frankly, a proper full attack could very easily wipe out half of your party, even with buffs applied.
There's also the matter that it's a 4th level spell; that's a 4th level spell slot (which you don't get many of at 10th level for 6/9 spellcasters), or 4 Arcane Points (which will run out very fast if you're casting spells like this a lot, even with a bunch of Extra Arcane Pool invested). Not only will this tactic be a drain on your nova power, but it can very easily be used against you.
You also forget that several enemies that aren't Huge or bigger (or Large with a Reach weapon) are going to have some good Reflex saves, and that Magi aren't exactly invested in their Intelligence score (they have some, but they won't be nearly as effective as someone who specifically prepares for their spells to have a saving throw). This means that any creature with incredible Reflex Saves, or dare I say Evasion, will make child's play of this spell.
Though I understand that you sought experienced feedback, and not theoretical feedback, it's safe to say that some or all of the theoretics that I've applied can most certainly apply to any practical use of this spell at a table.
Lastly, and I bring this up for animal-like intelligence creatures; they may not be sentient or brainiacs, but I can assure you that if they are injured enough by what appears to be a natural reaction (such as trying to bite into a cactus to drain the water from it), they probably won't be stupid enough to repeat that same mistake, and perhaps go after someone that doesn't have that defense mechanism.
Storm of blades is a weird case. It doesn't list the cost of the material component but seems to be using a dependant one that would have a cost.
|
Storm of blades is a weird case. It doesn't list the cost of the material component but seems to be using a dependant one that would have a cost.
I would think this is because it is not a set cost.
The only problem with your statement is that as a rule, material components with an expensive price are specifically listed in spell component line, see Wish as an example. If it does not have a price listed it has a negligible cost.Again, that's open to interpretation. The rule you've highlighted never says that the price has to be given in the spell description. Black adder venom has a price listed in the core rulebook, and it's 120 gp. By the same token, the transformation spell doesn't list a price for the potion of bull's strength it requires, but I seriously doubt that's meant to be a negligible cost.
It's really not though. It says "Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible". And the whole section is in reference to spells and how to read their descriptions, and for the sake of consistency with the majority of spell they need to put it in the spell component description. Lacking a cost in the description is the same as saying "no cost".
I agree that there are spells that definitely seem like they are in error by not listing a price, but until they revise them they stand as they are.