10pt Core / Adv only - what's good?


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I'm kinda feelin' a support Bard but I've never played a game with such low stats, so I'm lookin' for advice, any and all, about what's okay and what just won't work well.


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I don't think no court of law would try you for stabbing your GM in the face for these rules.


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You gotta leverage your racial bonus carefully in low point-buy games. SAD is good. MAD is bad. XD It's that simple, really. The Summoner is highly effective even on a 0 point buy, although you will want to pump Charisma.

If you wanna do support, consider looking for archetypes that reduce your in-combat abilities to help make your supporting powers better.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Ranger.

13 12 12 8 13 8 Before racial adjustments. Probably pick a +2 Strength race and raise it at 4th, Strength-based 2-weapon fighting.

Maybe go Halfling pet-riding archer:
10 15 12 8 13 10

Feel free to raid Charisma for more points.

Still get 5 skill points per level: Climb, Perception, Stealth, Survival, Swim to begin, keep Perception, Stealth, and Survival maxed, dabble in Handle Animal, Ride, Knowledges at level 2 and beyond.


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Wizard, elf or human. Definitely the least multistat dependent. Also something with animal companion work. A sylvan sorcerer wouldn't be terrible. A lore oracle as well.

Silver Crusade

Secret Wizard wrote:
I don't think no court of law would try you for stabbing your GM in the face for these rules.

These build guidelines are the darkest timeline.

I'd say Wizard, you need full casting that depends on little else. Wizard lets you dump stat Str and Cha, so I'd probably say that, build up your Int, Con, and Dex in that order, toss anything else in Wis and pray.


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Full caster is my answer whenever I see something like this.


I should clarify that Witch, Summoner, and Gunslinger have been nixed. xD


Synthesist summoner all the way here.

Tank the hell out of your physical stats and pump that charisma then hope.for the best.

Only way to run on this one, I think

Also. Convince the remaining players to do the same


That is fine. Wizards, Sorcerers, Arcanist are still great options. So are caster based druids and clerics.

If you know the game won't go past level 15 then an animal companion is a good choice.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Do you know what kind of campaign it will be? Urban, wilderness, dungeoneering, aquatic, hack & slash, heavy role-play?


Are you sure you don't want to play a 0 Point-Buy Wizard instead?
S:7
D:12
C:13+2
I:15+2
W:7
C:7
Dual Talent Human
/sarcasm

Serious answer for your Bard though below.

Spoiler:

Avoid any complicated combat and leverage whatever racial bonuses you can squeeze out.

Try out:
S:9
D:14
C:14
I:8
W:8
C:14

(No racials)

If you want a Ranged Build with a Bow. Versatile Performance basically increases your skill ranks so the Int really isn't needed and you can round out Strength at 4th to start using composites if you want. Though you would need Human to even get started on the Bow tree early (double feats at first level). Halfling would be typical but solid, as would Gnome due to the small size (AC and attack rolls), even despite the smaller bow damage; though you need to wait until 3 for Precise Shot.

Otherwise you can build an old style Enchanter with more of a Charisma focus.

S:7
D:13
C:14
I:8
W:8
C:16

(No racials)

Each point of Spell Focus is much more valuable in such a low point buy, as are spells with the Metamagics.

Honestly, 10 Point Buy blows and you're going to see a lot of MAD classes and the physical people are all going to have similar spreads. I can't stand the 15 we play with only because people have basically the same numbers across the board (unless they're casters).


Note for race, either go half-orc with the tattoo trait and fate's favored to boost all your saves by 2 or go half-elf with the dual minded traits for +2 for all will saves and +4 if enchantment shows up. Half-elf also has a bonus to perception making the wisdom penalty less of an impact.

Also if you go bard heavily encourage pet classes or summoning classes so you can actually buff powerful things.


SmiloDan wrote:
Do you know what kind of campaign it will be? Urban, wilderness, dungeoneering, aquatic, hack & slash, heavy role-play?

No idea, lol.


Druid is very powerful here, your pet does not care about your point build. Then you got full caster to support your pet. It will be better than any melee your team will bring.


Ya know, I *have* been itching to play a Druid...
Good times! Thanks all :)


I wonder why witch? (intellectual curiosity)


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I wonder why witch? (intellectual curiosity)

I, er, may have one-shot a couple of boss encounters with Slumber in a past game. lol

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A half-elf druid with Skill Focus Perception, racial +2 to Perception, class skill point in Perception, and a 16 Wisdom (14 is 5 points, +2 racial bonus to Wisdom) will give you a +12 to Perception.

Or put Skill Focus in Survival and still use that +2 racial bonus in Perception.

Even if you dump Int, you can max 3 skills or max 2 skills (Perception and Survival?) and dabble in a bunch of others, like Handle Animal, Knowledge nature, and Spellcraft.


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Look, you may not back me up on this one, but I say you go Monk. Just to piss the GM off.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Look, you may not back me up on this one, but I say you go Monk. Just to piss the GM off.

A sensei could legit work.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Look, you may not back me up on this one, but I say you go Monk. Just to piss the GM off.

Flurry of Misses, indeed! xD


lol wow might I suggest playing a wizard specilize in enchantment and make sure you use the sleep spell alot. and if that gets banned sorcerer fey bloodline same and more sleep.. OOO bard sandman archtype.

your characters will surpass being the enemies greatest nightmare instead will be the bringer of all nightmares!

this also works for secret wizards suggestion of piss the GM off lmao


Hah, no no. It's a green GM. The goal isn't to antagonize. lol


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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Bard actually works quite well. You can start with a Cha as low as 13, just focus on buffs instead of SoS/D spells. Archer bard works great. try 12 14 10 9 11 13 pre-racials, put lvl 4 Cha. You don't hit 5th level spells until lvl 15, so you can wait till 12th for your next bump.


Dwarf Fighter
Str16
Dex11
Con16
Int10
Wis10
Cha5

Lvl1 Feat: Breadth of Experience
Fighter Feat: Power Attack

Traits: Reactionary (+2 Init) and Bully (+1 intimidate)

You get 16 in Str and Con. Lvl4 you get Dex12 which is all you need.
Bully helps you in the only social skill you need. It brings your skill up to +2.
Breadth of Experience gives you +2 in all knowledge and profession checks.
Grab the any-tool for another +2 in all profession tests. This helps you get around the 2 skill points per level.
And as a fighter you'll be swimming in feats.

I chose dwarf because...

(1) 20ft movement in heavy armor means squat for a dwarf
(2) Bonuses to saves vs magic
(3) Dropping Wis and Cha gives you +6 points to play with, without hurting your saves.
(4) With racial bonuses you still get a respectable 16 in both important stats. And by lvl4 your AC will be as good as it can get.
(5) Your only dump stat doesn't hurt that much. With your trait you are only losing 2 points of intimidate. Nothing that will break you.

Sovereign Court

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If the GM is green, he may have been deceived by the note in the CRB that "10 pts is low fantasy". In that case, take a moment to educate him. Explain the following:

- That there exist MAD and SAD classes. MAD classes suffer more from low point arrays.
- SAD classes are the most high-fantasy ones. Lowering point buy to 10 encourages magic-intense play.
- Companion creatures are not influenced by the stat array. If the stat array becomes lower, they start to look relatively better. At 10 points, an animal companion is probably stronger than most martial PCs. So low points encourage heavy use of companion creatures.

The paradox of trying to achieve "low fantasy" with a 10pt buy is that you get more wizards, witches, clerics and summoners.

------------

If that doesn't work, consider running away.


honestly lower point buy does not make a game easier to run it makes it harder (you have to worry about tpks more) the easiest way is to run it how it is intended (20 point buy right? i always do mine 25 but i like the challenge and find mad is not as much of a thing then )

That said i would run a 10 point if my players wanted a gritty challenging game where stats weren't as important as class abilities. Bard should be great since it will give important bonuses to the whole part who will need it with 10 point buy.


The games assumes 15 point buy, but most people I know use 20.


15? wow no wonder people complain about regular monk that would be hard


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Neo2151 wrote:
I'm kinda feelin' a support Bard but I've never played a game with such low stats, so I'm lookin' for advice, any and all, about what's okay and what just won't work well.

be a wizard, make him regret making it 10 ptb.

edit: i see everyone is in agreement then...


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This is how I would handle this:

Talk to my GM about what kind of game they have in mind. Work out a concept that fits the theme of the game and that is interesting for me to play. If I can't make the concept work with the 10 point buy go back to the GM and explain my problem. I would ask the GM for advice on how to fix the issue, I would get them interested in my concept and help me make it work. Do that and everyone is a winner.

Don't try to spite the GM. That is terrible advice. All that leads to is everyone being a loser.


Boomerang Nebula wrote:

This is how I would handle this:

Talk to my GM about what kind of game they have in mind. Work out a concept that fits the theme of the game and that is interesting for me to play. If I can't make the concept work with the 10 point buy go back to the GM and explain my problem. I would ask the GM for advice on how to fix the issue, I would get them interested in my concept and help me make it work. Do that and everyone is a winner.

Don't try to spite the GM. That is terrible advice. All that leads to is everyone being a loser.

you know he is right of course.

Still say bard


It's amazing how fast low point-buy can get accommodated when you scale back expectations a bit. It's still annoying, but losing a point of modifier here and there isn't a disaster in the grand scheme of things. You can still go something like 14(16)/13/12/12/10/8 with just a 10-point buy and not much stat dumping; just dropping your final core stat from 18 to 16 and CON from 14 to 12 is an 8 point savings, and neither of those things are really that terrible a loss. Having a virtually core-only restriction typically means you've got more feats to toss into things like Toughness anyhow, to compensate for lower stats.

With only Core/APG, a good substitute for the usual dex-to-damage stuff is to go finessed elven curved blade and Power Attack. Between two-handed Power Attack and the 1d10 die it ends up being basically the same as using Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace. You could even go for a classic Elven Figher 1/ Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight using Transmuter for bonus CON: 13STR, 14/16DEX, 12\10/12CON, 14/16INT, 9WIS, 7CHA.

Another option for manipulating stats with only Core/APG is to use Nature Oracle with Nature's Whispers and Natural Divination; since you can use CHA instead of DEX for AC and you can add CHA to crucial saving throws, it's easy to stack stats into CHA or CHA/STR for a caster or combat/caster character.

A straight-out battle Cleric is also quite doable, since a Cleric can use Domains to get strong buff spells or Rage, and can multiclass a little while still having strong spell-levels.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

This is how I would handle this:

Talk to my GM about what kind of game they have in mind. Work out a concept that fits the theme of the game and that is interesting for me to play. If I can't make the concept work with the 10 point buy go back to the GM and explain my problem. I would ask the GM for advice on how to fix the issue, I would get them interested in my concept and help me make it work. Do that and everyone is a winner.

Don't try to spite the GM. That is terrible advice. All that leads to is everyone being a loser.

you know he is right of course.

Still say bard

Actually, ignore what I just said and go with Bard for the win.


10 points is good enough for five 12s, before dumping the sixth stat and racial bonus. It makes low level encounters more difficult, but doesn't do much on the long run. Actually this is a reason to not do it - first levels are tough already for most approaches (unless you play greatsword dude #2,043,879 or sleep mage #1,738,834), no reason to make them more deadly.


With a setup like that, I'd say you should coordinate with the other players so you can get some synergies going to offset the stat-imposed limitations.

I made an elven magus work with 14, 12, 14, 12, 10, 7. (Before racial adjustments.)

Toughness and Shield spell for early survival.

Sovereign Court

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wraithstrike wrote:
The games assumes 15 point buy, but most people I know use 20.

The game lists roll 4d6, drop lowest as it's base assumption, then goes on to suggest point buy as an alternative and guesses that 15 points is equivalent to 4d6 drop lowest.

But is that true? I'm assuming the following point cost for stats below 7: 6->-6, 5->-9, 4->-12, 3->-16, based on the way the point costs increase for high scores. If you then enumerate all possible results of 4d6_DL, multiply by 6 and average the results, you get the exact expected point value of rolling. Which is 18.8287037037.

So, rounded, that means rolling is worth 19 built points. You do risk more uneven (suboptimal) ability scores, on the other hand you're likely to get some rerolls for especially bad rolls.

So altogether, 20 points looks quite reasonable. It strikes a decent balance between MAD and SAD classes, and companions that don't roll for stats.


Standard fantasy according to the CRB is 15 point buy and what is assumed for adventure paths. Standard rolling is roll 4d6, drop lowest.


In my experience roll 4d6 drop lowest end up being more like 28-42 point buy aveageing around 32. except for my poor players with no sembalance of luck : your highest stat is a 13 ... i'm so sorry i'm just gonna redo these for you. ^why i started point buy^


Vidmaster7 wrote:
In my experience roll 4d6 drop lowest end up being more like 28-42 point buy aveageing around 32. except for my poor players with no sembalance of luck : your highest stat is a 13 ... i'm so sorry i'm just gonna redo these for you. ^why i started point buy^

Average of 32? Jeez, were you rolling d12? Just to test things out, I rolled four times for myself.

12, 15, 8, 11, 7, 15. Point-buy 11.
8, 14, 11, 14, 12, 16. Point-buy 21.
11, 8, 14, 12, 11, 11. Point-buy 10.
14, 121, 10, 11, 13, 14. Point-buy 16.
I averaged them and ended up with an average of 14.5. That second row really skewed things up, but I was in a campaign once where two of our characters were effectively point-buy 17, and one guy was 32. Yeah, I didn't do much in combat.


hmm maybe I should watch their rolls closer lol or check their die's heh

Sovereign Court

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wraithstrike wrote:

Standard fantasy according to the CRB is 15 point buy and what is assumed for adventure paths. Standard rolling is roll 4d6, drop lowest.

So there's the "Standard" way of generating ability scores:

CRB > Getting Started > Generating Ability Score wrote:
Standard: Roll 4d6, discard the lowest die result, and add the three remaining results together.

Vs. "Standard Fantasy" purchase of scores. Which are NOT equivalent.

And then there's the practice of 20pts which has become standardized through PFS.

That's a lot of different standards you can cling to.

Like any system with parameters, some value choices generate unpleasant or outright degenerate results, regardless of whether they're called a particular name like "standard". It's a matter of figuring out which values generate the nicest balance.

I think the best balance is probably around 20pts;


  • MAD classes function well enough.
  • PCs aren't dwarfed by no-pts companions.
  • Everyone gets equal points to spend.
  • PCs can be competent at their main job without severe dumping other things, helping to maintain well-rounded PCs.
  • Not so powerful that you can't use stock Bestiary monsters without modification.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
hmm maybe I should watch their rolls closer lol or check their die's heh

You really should, if there is one roll a player will lie about it's going to be the one that decides stats for the rest of a campaign.

PC Sir Uber Man with 17, 17, 16, 15, 14 and that one 8 for a dump stat to try and make it look less suspicious.

Point buy all the way for me. Stops all the stat related downsides, envy and whatever you call it when a players upset that they a character with an average of 10 next to Uber Man. You will get the odd player who will proclaim that it makes for an interesting RP character but you won't ever catch them playing one.


we'll like I said I do pont buy now a days


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Commoner, because that is what the GM obviously wants you to play.


that's a little harsh^


When I do point buy, I always use 30 points.

Reason being, the wizards of the world will have their 20s regardless, so you might as well accomodate the weaker classes.

So yeah, the thing I'd do in this campaign is full wizard, with a stat spread of 8str/12dex/13con/17(19)int/8wis/7cha, race is half orc, half-elf, human or elf.

Alternatively, barbarians don't give a f@$%.

Str 16(18), Dex 10, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 7.

Race is Half-orc, half-elf or human. Dwarf is not a bad bet either, although you do give up on strength.

Invulnerable Rager archetype

Rape Powers:
2 Superstition
4 Reckless Abandon
5B Lesser Beast Totem
6 Beast Totem
7B Witch Hunter
8 Increased Damage Reduction
10 Greater Beast Totem
11B Increased Damage Reduction
12 Increased Damage Reduction

Feats
1 Power Attack
1H Iron Will
3 Cleave
5 Extra Rage Power
7 Extra Rage Power
9 Improved Critical(Falchion)
11 Extra Rage Power

That's what I'd do if faced with the challenge of making a mighty warrior on a 10 point buy.
Assuming you buy stuff according to the Advanced Bonus Progression, and wear an adamantine breastplate for +2dr, you'll have an AC of 21, 23 when raging, DR 11/-, Saves +14/+7/+8, +17/+7/+11 when raging, and +22/+12/16 against supernatural abilities, spells & SLAs.

On the other end of the scale, you're looking at 16hp, +4/1d8+6 attack without raging(that's plenty for level 1), and 17 AC assuming you wear a scale mail, using a battleaxe and a heavy shield. Saves are +5/+0/+1, 7/0/3 when raging, which is fair enough. You could take on a bugbear in single combat, that's a feat to be proud of for a 1st level 10pt buy character.

Int 8 wis 7 cha 8 is a little hard to roleplay though, I'll give you that. But it solves the problem of low point buy well enough, and you can't have everything.


Neo2151 wrote:
I should clarify that Witch, Summoner, and Gunslinger have been nixed. xD

At first, I thought you said that Witch, Summoner, and Gunslinger had been mixed. I thought to myself, now that sounds like an interesting class!


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
I should clarify that Witch, Summoner, and Gunslinger have been nixed. xD
At first, I thought you said that Witch, Summoner, and Gunslinger had been mixed. I thought to myself, now that sounds like an interesting class!

Sounds like somebody really wanted bayonetta.

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