Where have all the Heroes Gone?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

51 to 94 of 94 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

My idea for high-level PC's is that they have important things to do, but not here. They might be vaguely aware of a situation (some wizards probably keeping an eye on things more than others), but it isn't their place to interfer. Hell, if they are good characters they would probably see the allowing of other good characters to advance on their own as a good thing, as it would increase the overall netgain of good in the world. If they fall, that's when they turn up to fix things.

For an evil campaign, those PC's should become your antagonists. Keeps everything balanced ;)


I figure most high level people semi-retire - active adventuring/combat duty is incredibly stressful, after all, and most PCs have seen more combat in a few months than most professional mercs see in their entire lives.

And there's plenty of duties that would pretty much be full-time jobs.

Being a king at 20th level is about as time consuming as being a king at 5th level; being really high level may just mean you're your own kingdom's most powerful weapon.

Other may well start wandering the land like Kwai Chang Kain, or even embark on a path on conquest.

Just a matter of ambition, really.

Someone who sincerely seeks greater power will probably leave the material plane, though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zhangar wrote:

I figure most high level people semi-retire - active adventuring/combat duty is incredibly stressful, after all, and most PCs have seen more combat in a few months than most professional mercs see in their entire lives.

And there's plenty of duties that would pretty much be full-time jobs.

Being a king at 20th level is about as time consuming as being a king at 5th level; being really high level may just mean you're your own kingdom's most powerful weapon.

Other may well start wandering the land like Kwai Chang Kain, or even embark on a path on conquest.

Just a matter of ambition, really.

Someone who sincerely seeks greater power will probably leave the material plane, though.

OTOH, assuming they're even vaguely heroic, they're likely to react to any major threats.

Shouldn't such characters have responded to the magical winter beginning in Reign of Winter, for example? Now they might not have stumbled upon the right clues as early as the PCs did, but they should be working on it. Of course in that case, the only real way to approach it is through the Hut and if the PCs have the Hut before the real players get involved ...

An interesting alternate coda to that AP might be to have the PCs return to an Irrisen conquered by their former characters - who still couldn't track Elvanna to the Hut or directly help against her (or help free/fight the Grandmother).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Cruel speculation: The more inactive an adventure stays, his levels start retraining into NPC class levels.
One day you wake up and realize few of those wizard levels you loved so much have turned commoner.
Shudder.
The horror.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Envall wrote:

Cruel speculation: The more inactive an adventure stays, his levels start retraining into NPC class levels.

One day you wake up and realize few of those wizard levels you loved so much have turned commoner.
Shudder.
The horror.

So if we can just stall long enough, the BBEG will be a commoner?


A lot of what defines a BBEG is commitment and ambition. They do not stop. So they never revert to commoner levels.

In this world, ambition is the sign that you are, to someone, a villain. And someone is going to turn up to stop you. It is only a matter of time.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

You either die a PC, or live long enough to see yourself become a Commoner.


Envall wrote:

Cruel speculation: The more inactive an adventure stays, his levels start retraining into NPC class levels.

One day you wake up and realize few of those wizard levels you loved so much have turned commoner.
Shudder.
The horror.

Makes sense. You start to get flabby if you stop working out. And it's hard to keep up with a workout as extreme as adventuring.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'd like to think my retired Halfling Thief from 1st and 2nd edition could keep up with these young pathfinder whippersnappers.

Hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha.

dries eyes.

Sometimes, I crack myself up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Many of them take on apprentices or squires and then too late realise they have become the wise old mentor and are inevitably doomed.


Whoops, I thought yaga was only tier 5.

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
Whoops, I thought yaga was only tier 5.

Ah. That makes sense then.

But like I said, I picked my examples of someone able to stand up to the PCs really carefully. There's a reason I only had two people on the list...


Deadmanwalking wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Whoops, I thought yaga was only tier 5.

Ah. That makes sense then.

But like I said, I picked my examples of someone able to stand up to the PCs really carefully. There's a reason I only had two people on the list...

There's also Tar-Baphon, the freaking Whispering Tyrant himself, who is a Necromancer 20/Archmage 10 - and there's a reason why a group of level 20 adventurers with freaking artifacts were only able to imprison him. Yeah, 20/mythic 10 is the real deal (which is why none of our WotR characters stuck around on Golarion.

Liberty's Edge

Gulthor wrote:
There's also Tar-Baphon, the freaking Whispering Tyrant himself, who is a Necromancer 20/Archmage 10 - and there's a reason why a group of level 20 adventurers with freaking artifacts were only able to imprison him. Yeah, 20/mythic 10 is the real deal (which is why none of our WotR characters stuck around on Golarion.

Actually...he isn't quite what you say. Specifically, Tar-Baphon is a Mythic Lich, rather than having a PC-style Mythic Path.

And he's a 'mere' CR 26, which isn't really a huge challenge for a group of PCs of that level. Not by himself anyway.

Baba-Yaga is 4 CR higher than him, and I'm betting Geb is at least 2 (and has Arazni for backup). Tar-Baphon is a scary guy (as you note). He's not nearly as scary as either of those two.


If I were a level 20/mythic 10 being in the Golarion setting, I'd do my own version of Hermea but with the whole planet... the right way, naturally. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Don't most APs end with the PCs somewhere around 15th level? I know a few go all the way to 20, but thought most stopped short of that.

Liberty's Edge

Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
Don't most APs end with the PCs somewhere around 15th level? I know a few go all the way to 20, but thought most stopped short of that.

More like 16th or 17th for a lot of 'em, but yeah, none go to 20.

Except WotR, which goes to Level 20 and Mythic Tier 10.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly?

Asmodeus - "Do you have a permit?"

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.

Eh. I'm skeptical of this logic. Characters like that aren't deities and don't operate by the same rules at all, allowing them to act relatively free of such restrictions. Heck, Baba Yaga has explicitly remained a non-deity partially specifically for that reason.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.
Eh. I'm skeptical of this logic. Characters like that aren't deities and don't operate by the same rules at all, allowing them to act relatively free of such restrictions. Heck, Baba Yaga has explicitly remained a non-deity partially specifically for that reason.

Okay, I don't AP, how much s&+# does Baba Yaga raise?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
HyperMissingno wrote:
Okay, I don't AP, how much s!@~ does Baba Yaga raise?

Well... there was that time she single-handedly carved the nation of Irrisen out of the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.

...or the whole thing in Iobaria with making Kostchtchie a twisted giant under her control.

...and meddling in affairs on multiple worlds (e.g. Golarion, Triaxus, Earth...)

...enslaving an ancient proto-Norn to gain influence over fate...

et cetera. Fun and hijinks.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
There's also Tar-Baphon, the freaking Whispering Tyrant himself, who is a Necromancer 20/Archmage 10 - and there's a reason why a group of level 20 adventurers with freaking artifacts were only able to imprison him. Yeah, 20/mythic 10 is the real deal (which is why none of our WotR characters stuck around on Golarion.

Actually...he isn't quite what you say. Specifically, Tar-Baphon is a Mythic Lich, rather than having a PC-style Mythic Path.

And he's a 'mere' CR 26, which isn't really a huge challenge for a group of PCs of that level. Not by himself anyway.

Baba-Yaga is 4 CR higher than him, and I'm betting Geb is at least 2 (and has Arazni for backup). Tar-Baphon is a scary guy (as you note). He's not nearly as scary as either of those two.

Oh, interesting, I was going based on his Pathfinderwiki entry, which lists him as a 20/10.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

{. . .}

And, to be clear, a single Level 20/Mythic Rank 10 character can kill almost any number of 20th level ones. As noted, each Tier is the equivalent of a CR or so in a lot of ways, and 20th level characters are as outclassed by such a person as 12th level characters are by 20th level ones.

I knew Mythic was broken, but is it so broken that Mythic Ranks beyond 2 keep you on top even if you get Zerged by an overwhelming number of non-Mythic characters?

Deadmanwalking wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

(And you don't know how long that problem is going to STAY cleaned up -- in the unlikely event that I get the chance to run WotR and the following APs, expect it to stay cleaned up for some amount of time between half a year and a year . . . or whatever amount of time is needed for the characters to get dragged into a long vacation or some kind of divine contract that forbids them from coming back to clean it up again.)

Uh...the Worldwound wasn't easy to open. Having it reopen arbitrarily makes no sense. As well as making the PCs actions meaningless, which is a giant dick move to the players (who, IME, like having the things they do matter).

I thought the world was supposed to do that . . . at least that's what this one does . . . .

Deadmanwalking wrote:

And there are a lot of problems way easier to fix than the Worldwound. Cheliax leaps to mind, with a party of characters on this power level able to overthrow it in a weekend and then pretty casually rule it for the rest of eternity.

The Worldwound opened in part because Golarion shifted slightly with the death of Aroden, and it looks like Areelu Vorlesh(*) just took advantage of this to finish the work needed to open it. So if the PCs undo the ritual and close the Worldwound, the underlying problem is still not solved, and could soon find outlet again (possibly in the same place, or possibly somewhere else, come to think of it . . .).

(*)According to the www.pathfinderwiki.com entry, which comes from The Worldwound sourcebook (and you wouldn't want to render it obsolete only 3 years after its release, would you?), she is Witch 10/Demoniac 10/Archmage 8, so here's another high Mythic for you to worry about if she gets away from the PCs in Wrath of the Righteous.


UnArcaneElection wrote:


The Worldwound opened in part because Golarion shifted slightly with the death of Aroden, and it looks like Areelu Vorlesh(*) just took advantage of this to finish the work needed to open it. So if the PCs undo the ritual and close the Worldwound, the underlying problem is still not solved, and could soon find outlet again...

Quoting directly from the opening of Wrath of the Righteous part 6, in the Adventure Background section.

City of Locusts:

Imprisoned in the tower of Threshold for the crime of using arcane magic, Areelu had discovered the same thinness between this world and the Abyss that had drawn Deskari to it before, and when she pledged her loyalty to him in return for aid in destroying the land that had betrayed her, the demon lord saw his chance. After 6 years of labor, Areelu, having recruited the aid of two other powerful arcane spellcasters and fellow prisoners under false pretenses of escaping, finally managed to open the destructive rift that would become the Worldwound. On the other side, Deskari used his scythe Riftcarver to widen the hole, beginning a chain reaction of devastation that saw the destruction of central Sarkoris and the rise of the Worldwound. Many scholars have theorized about the significance of this event’s timing, as the Worldwound opened only weeks after the death of Deskari’s old enemy Aroden, yet to date no evidence that this convergence of events was anything more than coincidence has surfaced.

The Worldwound, as listed, took 6 years of labor (likely partially because of having to hide it from the prison wardens), took 3 powerful arcane casters in a particular location, and took assistance from a Demon Lord on the other side of the rip in reality.

Slightly different, there.

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I knew Mythic was broken, but is it so broken that Mythic Ranks beyond 2 keep you on top even if you get Zerged by an overwhelming number of non-Mythic characters?

Mythic Ranks are worth a CR a piece, or so. How many 10th level characters are needed to 'Zerg Rush' a 20th level one?

Oh, and at Tier 10, you literally can't be killed except by artifact weapons. So there's that.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I thought the world was supposed to do that . . . at least that's what this one does . . . .

No it doesn't. New and different problems crop up, but old ones have absolutely been solved a lot of times in history.

Also, equally importantly, it's deeply dramatically unsatisfying and makes the players feel bad and frustrated in many cases.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

The Worldwound opened in part because Golarion shifted slightly with the death of Aroden, and it looks like Areelu Vorlesh(*) just took advantage of this to finish the work needed to open it. So if the PCs undo the ritual and close the Worldwound, the underlying problem is still not solved, and could soon find outlet again (possibly in the same place, or possibly somewhere else, come to think of it . . .).

(*)According to the www.pathfinderwiki.com entry, which comes from The Worldwound sourcebook (and you wouldn't want to render it obsolete only 3 years after its release, would you?), she is Witch 10/Demoniac 10/Archmage 8, so here's another high Mythic for you to worry about if she gets away from the PCs in Wrath of the Righteous.

That's...not exactly what happened, as Benjamin Madrano notes. Additionally, that actively required Deskarii on the other side to help with the process. Y'know, the Demon Lord the PCs almost certainly kill for good?

How many other Demon Lords do you think are gonna want to follow in that guy's footsteps when the people who killed him are still around to do an encore? People with a death wish rarely become Demon Lords.

Plus, on a meta-level, the 'Continuing The Campaign' section never even mentions that possibility. Which is a strong indication it's not an intended outcome.


I used to be an adventurer like you... Then I took a blast spell in the knee. Now I just smoke cigars and sip brandy in the Restful Pathfinder's Lounge...


Benjamin Medrano wrote:

{. . .}

Quoting directly from the opening of Wrath of the Righteous part 6, in the Adventure Background section.

** spoiler omitted **

The Worldwound, as listed, took 6 years of labor (likely partially because of having to hide it from the prison wardens), took 3 powerful arcane casters in a particular location, and took assistance from a Demon Lord on the other side of the rip in reality.

Slightly different, there.

Okay, thanks for the heads-up. Reopening time probably increased to 6 years instead of 6 months.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

That's...not exactly what happened, as Benjamin Madrano notes. Additionally, that actively required Deskarii on the other side to help with the process. Y'know, the Demon Lord the PCs almost certainly kill for good?

How many other Demon Lords do you think are gonna want to follow in that guy's footsteps when the people who killed him are still around to do an encore? People with a death wish rarely become Demon Lords.

If you're a smart Demon Lord, you recruit some other Demon Lord to be the one who rules the New Worldwound and gets the axe. You just have to find one who thinks they're taking advantage of your hard work to gain immense power for themselves.

This also works for a Devil who wants to plant a false flag attack to divert attention away from Cheliax, which is in some ways really an Infernal Worldwound. Things like the Glorious Reclamation, even if defeated by the PCs of Hell's Vengeance, have got to make the Devils nervous. Better to trick the Chaotic Evil cultists into restarting trouble somewhere a safe distance away to force a would-be New Glorious Reclamation to go back to the Mendevian Crusades (or Crusades named after whatever other bastion of Good the New Worldwound is close to).

From the point of view of the rest of Demonkind, if they got to wreak several decades of havoc in return for 6 years of work that most of them didn't even have to do themselves, they definitely got their money's worth, so a New Worldwound looks like an attractive prospect, as long as they make sure that somebody else gets killed by the WotR PCs.

The above possibilities are not mutually exclusive, and due to lack of coordination, might even result in **2** New Worldwounds opening, or at least attempting to open. That could explain where the WotR Heroes go -- even if another Worldwound doesn't actually succeed in opening, they have to spend the rest of their existence playing Whack-A-Mole against New Worldwounds. At some point they might want to recruit some new PCs to fix Golarion's underlying metaphysical alignment problem that came about with the death of Aroden, lest the non-Chaotic non-Evil deities come to the conclusion a few thousand years hence that the only way to sanitize the metaphysical environment is to remove Golarion from known reality altogether and replace it with a mysterious habitable artifact . . . .

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Plus, on a meta-level, the 'Continuing The Campaign' section never even mentions that possibility. Which is a strong indication it's not an intended outcome.

Okay, I'll give you that.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Okay, thanks for the heads-up. Reopening time probably increased to 6 years instead of 6 months.

That's a bare minimum. And required a level 20 character with Mythic Tiers to pull off. And assumes that the PCs (and the likely intervention of a deity) sealing it doesn't prevent that (an unwarranted assumption in many ways).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
If you're a smart Demon Lord, you recruit some other Demon Lord to be the one who rules the New Worldwound and gets the axe. You just have to find one who thinks they're taking advantage of your hard work to gain immense power for themselves.

This goes back to the 'Demon Lords aren't suicidal' thing.

Spoiler:
First, there's better than even odds that Baphomet (who did exactly this with Deskarii in many ways) also died at the hands of the PCs...while within his home realm. So...doing things this way still looks likely to get you dead.

Second, there probably aren't any Demon Lords stupid enough to fall for that. It's a pretty obvious con.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
This also works for a Devil who wants to plant a false flag attack to divert attention away from Cheliax, which is in some ways really an Infernal Worldwound. Things like the Glorious Reclamation, even if defeated by the PCs of Hell's Vengeance, have got to make the Devils nervous. Better to trick the Chaotic Evil cultists into restarting trouble somewhere a safe distance away to force a would-be New Glorious Reclamation to go back to the Mendevian Crusades (or Crusades named after whatever other bastion of Good the New Worldwound is close to).

Actually...no. Not under any circumstances. Devils actively support the closing of the Worldwound. That thing's bad for everyone. You gotta bear in mind that Asmodeus's evil is all wrapped up in his devotion to perfect law (under his authority). He hates and reviles Demons vastly more than he does someone like Iomedae (who he's perfectly happy to work with).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
From the point of view of the rest of Demonkind, if they got to wreak several decades of havoc in return for 6 years of work that most of them didn't even have to do themselves, they definitely got their money's worth, so a New Worldwound looks like an attractive prospect, as long as they make sure that somebody else gets killed by the WotR PCs.

Eh. In addition to the 'Demon Lords aren't suicidal' thing, this assumes several things:

First, it assumes the Demons consider the Worldwound a win, even after having lost it. Which isn't true, havoc was secondary and all the primary goals failed in the long run.

Second, it assumes deity level creatures are super focused on Golarion specifically. And lack basic tactical awareness. Both unwarranted assumptions. If you have a choice between opening such a thing on a planet where there are a group of unkillable badasses specifically geared to stop you and one where there aren't...why go with option A?

Really, opening another Worldwound is just idiotic. And Demons aren't stupid.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
The above possibilities are not mutually exclusive, and due to lack of coordination, might even result in **2** New Worldwounds opening, or at least attempting to open. That could explain where the WotR Heroes go -- even if another Worldwound doesn't actually succeed in opening, they have to spend the rest of their existence playing Whack-A-Mole against New Worldwounds. At some point they might want to recruit some new PCs to fix Golarion's underlying metaphysical alignment problem that came about with the death of Aroden, lest the non-Chaotic non-Evil deities come to the conclusion a few thousand years hence that the only way to sanitize the metaphysical environment is to remove Golarion from known reality altogether and replace it with a mysterious habitable artifact . . . .

There's no evidence this is either true or the likely result of the PCs actions in WotR, and a lot it isn't.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Okay, I'll give you that.

There's a reason for that. And it's that making what PCs accomplished meaningless is a terrible idea and kind of a dick move.

Plus all the logical reasons noted above, of course.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly?
Asmodeus - "Do you have a permit?"

Not to worry, I have a permit.:

2 people marked this as a favorite.
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly? Same thing that stops Cayden and Desna from going in themselves. Actions have consequences, no matter the power level.

In our Golarion's canon, the events of Hell's Rebels are tied directly to two of our WotR characters; my character, the party Hellknight-turned-demigod, and our paladin of Iomedae.

My character used to be a member of the Order of the Godclaw (which I chose for WotR because it had been founded during the First Mendevian Crusade) before founding his own Order (the Order of the Lesion), so when I read that the catalyst for the events of HR had to do with paladins of Iomedae marching into Citadel Dinyar to retrieve an artifact of Iomedae, I immediately saw the hands of our old characters at work.

Gulthor's long-term goals include seeing Cheliax run by the Hellknights - or at least seeing House Thrune deposed, as he believes House Thrune to be too corrupt to be the Lawful authority Cheliax needs. But, he has to go about it in extremely circuitous ways, as he can neither ask his own Hellknights to intervene (as doing so would be in direct conflict with their Lawful ideals), nor can he personally risk making a play and angering Asmodeus.

Even a level 20/mythic 10 hero with a Major Artifact, a couple demon lords under his belt, and who has ascended to godhood himself isn't foolish enough to directly challenge a major deity, and Gulthor is the very picture of self-righteous certainty.


Envall wrote:

Cruel speculation: The more inactive an adventure stays, his levels start retraining into NPC class levels.

One day you wake up and realize few of those wizard levels you loved so much have turned commoner.
Shudder.
The horror.

I do strongly encourage players to view retraining as a very normal process that happens all the time. Characters don't stop learning and growing they just get out of practice with old skills as they learn new ones. It's not unreasonable to assume a character is out of practice with the abilities that made them successful adventurers as they picked up skills better suited to a more normal life.

Adventurers that stay in top shape even in 'retirement' probably live a life more like Vegeta and Goku, in they constantly train hard to maintain their skills and struggle to relate to normal people as training comes first.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
There's also Tar-Baphon, the freaking Whispering Tyrant himself, who is a Necromancer 20/Archmage 10 - and there's a reason why a group of level 20 adventurers with freaking artifacts were only able to imprison him. Yeah, 20/mythic 10 is the real deal (which is why none of our WotR characters stuck around on Golarion.

Actually...he isn't quite what you say. Specifically, Tar-Baphon is a Mythic Lich, rather than having a PC-style Mythic Path.

And he's a 'mere' CR 26, which isn't really a huge challenge for a group of PCs of that level. Not by himself anyway.

Baba-Yaga is 4 CR higher than him, and I'm betting Geb is at least 2 (and has Arazni for backup). Tar-Baphon is a scary guy (as you note). He's not nearly as scary as either of those two.

Though to be honest, Tar-Baphon should really be CR 27 - for whatever reason, his Mythic Realms write up gave the lich who actually has infinite money (Gallowspire has portals to the plane of Earth generating endless rivers of gold) NPC gear instead of PC gear.

But yeah, Tar-Baphon's better used as the unfair final boss fight of a L20 non-mythic campaign than as a foe to mythic PCs (to whom he's "merely" a peer).


If Lvl 20 Mythic 10 PCs decide to go and execute their own agenda, they probably step on someone's toes.

And then that someone pushes back. It happened to Tar-Baphon too.


CBDunkerson wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Okay, I don't AP, how much s!@~ does Baba Yaga raise?

Well... there was that time she single-handedly carved the nation of Irrisen out of the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.

...or the whole thing in Iobaria with making Kostchtchie a twisted giant under her control.

...and meddling in affairs on multiple worlds (e.g. Golarion, Triaxus, Earth...)

...enslaving an ancient proto-Norn to gain influence over fate...

et cetera. Fun and hijinks.

Yeeeesh, yeah that's the sort of thing the gods should be intervening with, or at the very least having a child and making that child an oracle with the potential to go mythic. I'd suggest sending their best warrior or a behemoth but...well...I don't think those would work on her at the moment.


Nezzmith wrote:
Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Remember that at a certain power level deities are going to take note. What stops a level 20/tier 10 character from liberating Cheliax singlehandedly?
Asmodeus - "Do you have a permit?"
Not to worry, I have a permit

Asmodues: Oh, right this way, sir. Leads the lesser one deep, deeeeeep down, to the rough beast's cage, where he turns around and says "lunch"


Some of my group's previous character has been used as NPC:s in later campaigns.

-A Fighter and an Oracle I used as highly skilled-at-arms free-roamers just sitting in a tavern once to just appear for the party (they were too afraid to approach their own OTP's). The Fighter has later become the legendary demon archer that every bowman aspires to be.

-An Inquisitor I turned into an empyreal lord.

-A Wizard I played in RotRL turned into a new ruler in Magnimar. Not necessarily that he wanted to, but because he needed to. He crafted and invented magical items in his demiplane to improve the everyday life for regular people. He also started a global organization between great wizards and mages, to share knowledge to the common people. They've started posting a librarian golem (with inter-dimensional access to all harmless books that the organization possesses) in almost every town and village across Avistan and Garundi. I have more plans for this one that I've yet to reveal for my players.

-A grim and mysterious, chimney of a pipe-smoking Ranger. I had him approach and save the party once when they all were blinded and alone. He just passed by, without saying a word or the party being able to see him. They just heard someone approach and they smelt burning tobacco. Later, they saw him single-handedly slaughter a band of frost-giants from several miles away. They spotted him because of the great stack of smokes coming from his pipe and when lighting struck his sword.

-One of my Alchemists turned into a shop-keeper of odd things. I also have greater plans for this fellow in the future.

-And then there is the one... the only... RUB-ETA! (the namesake of this account) I don't think I've featured any other character as much as him. All my players know that the next twenty minutes to two hours will be nothing but pain, misery, surrealism and comedy when he arrives. I'm probably hyping him up too much, I think my players are fed-up with him. But I really like him. And what I like the most about him is that it really doesn't matter what the players try to do, because I can let anything happen to that guy.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Pacing is also an issue.

While it is important to keep dramatic tension going, and to give the PCs a sense of urgency, it is also important to let them have sufficient downtime for activities like crafting or research. Also, PCs are famously good at NOT doing what was expected during the design of an adventure, which can lead to all sorts of additional encounters and events. So, no two GMs are going to have exactly the same "pace" in running an AP.

Aggressive groups might finish in 6 months "in-world", though that could take years to play out in the real world. More cautious/ deliberate groups might take multiple years "in-world" for one AP. Also, the nature of the AP may prolong it... Kingmaker uses Kingdom Turns, which are a month long. It will take years, and could take decades, "in-world" to play out... and so the end events of Kingmaker will not be seen in the world during other APs.

This is also partially why the Varisian APs are a little different... most others are scattered over the world so that they can have less impact on each other; the first APs (by necessity, as the world was being created) CAN impact each other (Curse of the Crimsom Throne has a direct tie to the events of The Skinsaw Murders in Rise of the Runelords, Shalelu Andosana appears in both Rise of the Runelords and Second Darkness, and there is a Vancaskerkin in each of the first three APs... the background of Orik in RotRL is part of the background for his father in SD). Even so, the overlap is limited in order to allow GMs the freedom to run them as they see fit.

In the end, to return to the original question, "where the heroes go" and "what happens to them after the AP" are beyond the scope of the AP, which ends when its story is completed (in success or failure). The answer is "whatever the players and GM decide."

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I end up running two entirely different group of players, each with their own canon of what happened.

for those interested:

CotCT:
So on one side we have Korvosa under the rule of a powerful elven mage using his magic to better the lives of his citizen and increasing the city's prosperity. While his Brother-in-Law wanders the world searching to right wrongs while forgetting he had a kid. He was last seen in Irrisen asking about a certain Hut.
The Psion's soul fused with the Harrow deck of many thing and reappeared many times through my games as an aspect of different cards.

RotRL:
The Paladin and druid are now living in Thistletop, raising the goblin child they saved from the ninja during book 1.
The kitsune ninja is happily living with his wife Shallelu. They make sure the country is safe from any kind of big danger. He also took the leadership of the Sczarni in Magnimar, dropping at random to remind the local gangs who is running the show now.

IG:
The new Sovereign of Numeria is an Android investigator and evangelist of Brigh and Cassandalee. He is instating policies to spread the technology that was kept hidden and sealed away by the Tech league. The League has also been eradicated to the last member.
The Cyber Soldier has been heavily modified further, to the point that its hard to consider him more living than construct anymore. He remains at the king's side as his most trusted bodyguard. He's taken to the bottle even more after his new liver was implanted sucessfully.
The mysterious stranger Cpt. Jack is now exploring space from atop of a Desnan Space Butterfly. The Party has heard no news from him since he left.
The gnome swashbuckler still refuse to stay dead for any period of time. He is a source of constant source of facepalms for the entire party, which are often followed by the detonation of a cranial bomb, but to no effect.

RoW:
The winterwitch decided to become the councilor of the new queen. As Anastasia had no real idea how things went on on Golarion.
The two halfling brothers retired and returned to their small home in Taldor.

MM:
The Osirian rogue accepted the invitation to join to the Ruby Prince's court and has been living in luxury in Sothis.
The tiefling magus, disgusted by the acts and personality of the nobles of Osirion, declined the Ruby Prince's offer and set off to wander the world.
The minkan kinetecist locked herself in the Sky Pharaoh's Flying pyramid and spent several month trying to attune herself to the pyramids engines. Once that was done, she reactivated the engines and flew it back to Minkai. Hoping to plunder its ancient technology and gain favor with the emperor.


Urath DM wrote:
...Shalelu Andosana appears in both Rise of the Runelords and Second Darkness...

She's also in Jade Regent, though in our game's canon, she took on a much, much larger role in the events of RotR, so when I start our Jade Regent game here in the next couple months, I'm replacing her with a different NPC (well, actually, I'm sliding Sandru over to her role and subbing in another NPC as caravan master.)


Gulthor wrote:
Urath DM wrote:
...Shalelu Andosana appears in both Rise of the Runelords and Second Darkness...
She's also in Jade Regent, though in our game's canon, she took on a much, much larger role in the events of RotR, so when I start our Jade Regent game here in the next couple months, I'm replacing her with a different NPC (well, actually, I'm sliding Sandru over to her role and subbing in another NPC as caravan master.)

I left Jade Regent out of my comments because that's a somewhat likely scenario... especially since using the Relationship rules from Jade Regent (later in Ultimate Campaign), Shalelu could easily become a "significant other" for someone throughout Rise of the Runelords .. which could be a complicating factor for Second Darkness, if they're run in sequence or in parallel. The fact that she could also be killed in RotRL and not be available for SD or JR is also an issue.

Jade Regent includes notes, though, on substituting characters who are no longer available in your version of Golarion. The need to do that illustrates why it is easier on everyone if the APs take place far enough apart in time and geography to limit "cross-over".. that's space that some would say is better used for more adventure content.


all the heroes are obviously sacrificed to keep the balance of the cosmos. If people just got stronger by killing things they would snowball and eventually possess enough energy within themselves that they would implode into a black hole sucking in everything around them.


My group does epilogues. When we conclude an AP (we've finished 5 over the past 7 years) we usually have a pot-luck dinner, then the DM presents an epilogue.

Our group has lost some players to geographical relocations and other life events. On one occasion we ran a follow on adventure when everyone from that original party happen to be in town.

The GM of our Second Darkness campaign runs a sequel which takes place several years after the events with different heroes. We play those PC's about once a year. We're all elves and lantern bearers. It's quite fun and deadly.


Envall wrote:

Cruel speculation: The more inactive an adventure stays, his levels start retraining into NPC class levels.

That's actually kind of how we explain it in our campaigns, except you don't change class. If you stop putting yourself in danger (by subjecting yourself to situations and opponents that could kill you, i.e. adventuring), you will start to regress. You lose one level per year of non-adventuring, until you level out at half your class levels.

This also explains for us how the heroes can rise to such a power level so quickly - destiny. A great danger rears its ugly head, and destiny empowers our would be heroes to face it. When destiny is done with them, and the danger they rose up to defeat is gone, they diminish. (There are of course exceptions to this rule, such as slumbering bad guys or the odd archmage in his tower etc, so it is mostly there to help us imagine what the super powerful PCs - and other ex-adventurers - do after the AP is over. "You little whippersnappers should have seen my in my prime! Dragons trembled before me!" "Yeah yeah, grandpa. Now, eat your porridge before it gets cold.")

51 to 94 of 94 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Where have all the Heroes Gone? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.