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Greeting all-
i'm planning on building a PFS Grippli Mesmerist. More interestingly, a double archetype Mesmerist- a Toxitician & Umbral Mesmerist.
My question is- do these archetypes legally stack? none of the abilities are replaced or altered, by the other.
Next, most importantly- At 5th Lvl, the Umbral Mesmerist is considered Invisible by those affected by his Stare. The Toxitician replaces Stare with an Injection.
Is the Injection the equivalent to Stare in regards to this ability [as nothing else mentions Stares in the Archetype]?
Nope, it just gives you a dead ability, sorry. someone else will hafta give you a rules quote cuz im about to sleep, but just in case no one answers i'll look tomorrow :)
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'd say they both touch the Hypnotic Stare ability. Remember that the "this alters" and "this replaces" lines are just extra. They are not required to be there and most of the early (if not all) were printed without them.
In general if an ability is modified, touched, altered, exchanged, enhanced, reduced, or otherwise looked at then it is altered.
In all of these cases, Ask your GM. They have the authority to make changes. This is also a case where there may be table variance.
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i could inquire about getting a Dev in here to possibly bring their insight. This could just be an oversight, as they probably didn't think that anyone would combine the two archetypes. This could possibly just be an oversight.
a Toxitician's Injection still acts like a Stare, except that it's applied through a Melee Touch Attack, and i get multiples of them at once.
The invisibility would be nice, but it's not imperative.
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you could inquire, but that's typically not what happens, you need to get a thread FAQd to get a real response, devs no longer lurk much on the forums, after the harassment the players give them.
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You may or may not be able to stack them, depending on the GM's interpretation of what constitutes altering a feature. But barring the GM changing it, you would at the very least have a dead level. It's the same as if one archetype traded away your spellcasting and another one gave you Spell Penetration as a bonus feat.
A Dev might offer their interpretation in an unofficial capacity, but I don't see them making an official ruling saying that the two should stack.
EDIT: Missed that this was for PFS. In that case, don't try stacking them. While it doesn't say explicitly that it alters Hypnotic Stare, it does alter Hypnotic Stare. As a result, it doesn't stack. Even if you were to decide that that's not the case, the best you're going to get is "expect table variation".
Contributor
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EDIT: Missed that this was for PFS. In that case, don't try stacking them. While it doesn't say explicitly that it alters Hypnotic Stare, it does alter Hypnotic Stare. As a result, it doesn't stack. Even if you were to decide that that's not the case, the best you're going to get is "expect table variation".
This, pretty much. The Archetype FAQ is rather strict in this regard.
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While I'm not arguing against all of you, this character hasn't been built yet, i still think it's a grey area.
Ephemeral Stare (Su): At 5th level, the umbral mesmerist is treated as if he were invisible by the target of his hypnotic stare (as per the invisibility spell), provided neither he nor any creatures conjured by shadow summoning take hostile actions against the target. Once the umbral mesmerist or any creature conjured by his shadow summoning ability takes a hostile action against the target, the mesmerist becomes visible to the target and the target cannot be affected again by that umbral mesmerist’s ephemeral stare ability for 24 hours (although it can be affected by other effects of his hypnotic stare). This ability replaces mental potency.
This ability doesn't say if an altered Stare ability does/doesn't work. I understand the mechanical differences between a Toxitician's Injections and this ability.
They stack, you just can't ever utilise ephemeral stare.
Class features are independent from each other as far as the stacking rules go.
Reliance on an earlier class feature that is altered/replaced or in any other way affected has no impact on the later class feature other than to maybe make it unusable.
Still enough grey that I would probably avoid it for PFS.
While I'm not arguing against all of you, this character hasn't been built yet, i still think it's a grey area.
Ephemeral Stare (Su): At 5th level, the umbral mesmerist is treated as if he were invisible by the target of his hypnotic stare (as per the invisibility spell), provided neither he nor any creatures conjured by shadow summoning take hostile actions against the target. Once the umbral mesmerist or any creature conjured by his shadow summoning ability takes a hostile action against the target, the mesmerist becomes visible to the target and the target cannot be affected again by that umbral mesmerist’s ephemeral stare ability for 24 hours (although it can be affected by other effects of his hypnotic stare). This ability replaces mental potency.This ability doesn't say if an altered Stare ability does/doesn't work. I understand the mechanical differences between a Toxitician's Injections and this ability.
It's PFS, so you don't want to mess with grey areas. The grey area is stacking, though, not if you can turn invisible. You don't have an altered Hypnotic Stare of any sort; you have an ability that replaces Hypnotic Stare entirely. There's nothing in the new ability that provides any compatibility with things dependent on Hypnotic Stare.