Advice on Ancestor vs. Battle Oracle


Advice


Hello everyone! I have been a longtime lurker and have found a lot of great advice when it comes to these individual mysteries. However, I am having trouble deciding on which one I ultimately want to go with. I personally am not obsessed with being super optimized in battle if it means I lose out on flavor. With that said, Ancestor DOES provide a lot of flavor, however I worry that it sacrifices too much for flavor as opposed to battle which is all mostly combat/battle oriented and a little dull in flavor.

I am playing in a campaign that utilizes Iron Heroes traits. If you're not familiar with them, there's a great PDF of the book floating around on the internet for more info. I chose to pick up a particular trait that not only helps mechanically (hopefully) but also fits RP-wise with her backstory.

The playstyle I am aiming for is a buffer/debuffer, with a minor focus on healing (me and another character are the only ones out of 10 members that are allowed healing per a specific story element), the occasional destructive spell, and being mostly in melee with decent AC/tankiness and damage in order to keep up with some of the more feat-heavy martial classes.

Here are her stats:

ABILITY SCORES:

STR: 8
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 12 (10 +2 from aasimar)
CHA: 20 (18 +2 from aasimar)

TRAITS:

Faithful Friend (I gain +2 on attks/saves when a friend is in danger)
Weapon Bond Charisma (this trait allows me to use any ability score I choose in place of strength when it comes to my chosen weapon. So I use my CHA modifier for attacks and damage with my chosen weapon. I am thinking of possibly going Longsword or Bastard Sword)

Also, a lot of people outside of my group (on forums like these mostly) rage at me that this is OP. I assure you, my group and I have been playing like this for 10+ years and when everyone is OP, then no one is OP. These traits allow for more fluidity in RP and versatility with mechanics while still keeping everyone on par with each other for the most part. I'd rather not get yelled at by strangers on the internet that I am seeking advice from just because I am being judged about a decision my DM made almost 10+ years ago for our group. This is just how we've played for so long and no one in our group has had issues with it :D

CURSE:

Tongues

Possibly going dual-cursed with adding Branded (from 3rd party, DM is allowing it for backstory reasons if I choose to go with this)

FEAT:

Was thinking of choosing Angelic Flesh (for RP flavor and the +1 to AC from Steel flesh) but I'm open to other suggestions

My main concern here is although Battle on paper is amazing for combat, I feel like it leaves little to play around with as far as RP and just overall thematic flavor goes. Whereas Ancestor is still melee-centric, provides a LOT more flavor to work with, but seems so lackluster when it comes to actually utilizing it in battle. I am also concerned about how I will work in melee as far as armor goes. Since Ancestor has the Spirit Shield ability, can I make due with not wearing heavy armor at any point? Is it possible to just focus on buffing myself with spells and using my Spirit Shield revelation in place of crazy armor? Is my Dex decent enough as is or should I make that higher to help me out with AC if I'm lacking armor? What about Battle? It says I can gain proficiency with Heavy Armor. Does that mean I also can cast just fine in heavy armor? I'm a little confused on the wording there and if it means what I think it means.

Also, since my strength is so low (backstory/RP reason), I am not eligible for Power Attack. I won't be severely gimping myself by trying to be a melee fighting type without power attack, correct? I mean, my CHA bonus should be just fine for the most part I think.

I guess I'm just not really sure if Ancestor is enough to be viable while also giving me the RP flavor I desire. Battle is the next best thing that fits my character's theme and backstory but provides little as far as something to work with flavor-wise. Any help is appreciated!


On damage: I think you qualify for piranha strike, which is like the Dex equivalent to power attack.

On armor: What level do you start at? Because at Low levels that spirit shield won't last your whole day. But at higher levels, it's a good ability, especially if your dm let's you combine magic vestment with it.


Katdabra wrote:
The playstyle I am aiming for is a buffer/debuffer, with a minor focus on healing (me and another character are the only ones out of 10 members that are allowed healing per a specific story element), the occasional destructive spell, and being mostly in melee with decent AC/tankiness and damage in order to keep up with some of the more feat-heavy martial classes.

Okay, so you want to do it all... :-D

For buffing, I'd recommend picking long spear for your "Weapon Bond Charisma" and taking the Flagbearer feat. That will buff your party and also you. Work towards crafting or obtaining a Banner of the Ancient Kings.

You don't have the strength to use heavy armor and a shield. As such, I'd recommend that you take the Lame curse to help alleviate any encumbrance concerns.

And that works well with picking the Dual Cursed archetype for your oracle. Misfortune is tremendous at changing those tipping points of battles in your favor. Even if you only used it when an enemy rolled a potential crit against an ally, that revelation will be well worth it.

About Battle vs. Ancestor mysteries.... Ancestor gives the spell Heroism. Heroism is so much goodness it is crazy. Just bumping up all your skills by +2 is good. Bumping up your saves by +2 is gravy.

Another archetype you might consider is Spirit Guide. This allows you to pick up the Ancestors spirit on a battle oracle. The nice thing here is that you can apply CHA to all INT skills. And then add Heroism on top of that. And then get a Circlet of Persuasion to be quite the master at all things INT-skill.

In regards to using weapons... with a CHA that high, you'd be better off using spells (buff/debuff, etc.) all the time starting around level 4 with Spiritual Weapon using CHA (ask your GM). Grab a Lesser Rod of Toppling Spell and chuckle a bit as your foes fall all over themselves.


As a mystery Ancestor is pretty good. While lacking the raw combat power of the battle mystery its revelations are more than enough to make you good in the fray. It's especially good with you being dex based since the Spirit Shield revelation gives you armor. What make Ancestor more than discount Battle is the access to Heroism to give +2 to most d20 rolls for an entire dungeon and Telekinisis to do combat maneuvers from across the map. Seriously, this spell is amazing.

So yeah, if you want Ancestor for the flavor, go for it. Just ask the GM if you can use charisma for spiritual weapon and spiritual ally.

Also I'd suggest switching con and dex at the start and grabbing a buckler to get an AC boost. Put your FCB in HP and at level 1 you'll have 18 AC and 11 HP if you take the Spirit Shield revelation, and it'll only go up as you invest.

One last thing, if you have a spare spell known slot open, grab ant haul to help with your encumbrance.


If it helps, I have always liked the Ancestor Mystery better than the Battle one. I just think the Ancestor one is cooler...perhaps as you said, more flavorful. Love the Storm of Souls, Spirit Shield and Ancestral Weapon.


Fourshadow wrote:
If it helps, I have always liked the Ancestor Mystery better than the Battle one. I just think the Ancestor one is cooler...perhaps as you said, more flavorful. Love the Storm of Souls, Spirit Shield and Ancestral Weapon.

Ancestral Weapon wouldn't be that good for this Oracle, with dumped strength, low feats, and simple weapons they're better off sticking to an agile dagger when they can afford it.


HyperMissingno wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
If it helps, I have always liked the Ancestor Mystery better than the Battle one. I just think the Ancestor one is cooler...perhaps as you said, more flavorful. Love the Storm of Souls, Spirit Shield and Ancestral Weapon.
Ancestral Weapon wouldn't be that good for this Oracle, with dumped strength, low feats, and simple weapons they're better off sticking to an agile dagger when they can afford it.

True. I was just mentioning a couple of the revelations I really liked.

Of course, one has to have Weapon Finesse to make Agile work...


One of the Mysteries that allows using CHA for AC instead of DEX would be pretty effective. Since you're apparently already allowed to use CHA for everything else anyhow...

All things considered, Ancestor's access to the spell Heroism makes it a prime combat mystery in its own right even if there are a lot of problems with its combat revelations.


BadBird wrote:

One of the Mysteries that allows using CHA for AC instead of DEX would be pretty effective. Since you're apparently already allowed to use CHA for everything else anyhow...

All things considered, Ancestor's access to the spell Heroism makes it a prime combat mystery in its own right even if there are a lot of problems with its combat revelations.

Lunar's not exactly the best unless you go for a race with claws (and this is an aasimar we're dealing with) while nature is a contender for worst oracle mystery. They're the only ones that have Cha to AC.

Also you say that like it's a bad thing that Cha gets to do more than social skills and powering spellcasting.


You missed Lore Mystery.

Nature's Whispers, Bonded Mount and Natural Divination add up to one of the worst Mysteries? I don't think any mystery that lets you pull a CHA/DEX crossover can be called one of the worst, let alone one that can also grant a full-level Paladin-style mount and toss major bonuses onto skill checks, initiative rolls and saving throws.

I have no problem whatsoever with CHA being more useful, and I love builds that use an Oracle revelation to do it. Nature, Lore and Lunar Oracles can make amazingly effective hybrid characters that are good at both melee and spellcasting while having great AC in medium armor.

On the other hand, being able to simply assign a mental stat for both attack and damage is rather absurd in the context of usual PFS content. If it works for a group , then more power to them. But throw that on the OP-scale and it breaks the gauge off.


Weapon Bond Charisma as a Trait? That's a gift and a half. Also +2s whenever a friend is in danger? These are not traits, they are both better than any feat. +7 to hit and +5 damage every combat for a pair of traits, who cares if Battle seems OP, there is nothing in that Mystery that compares to those traits. Not judging you btw, just saying that with traits like that, no class abilities are going to overpower your groups own house rules. Not sure how a +7 to hit helps with RP, but really if you are going for more power, take Extra Traits feat and lvl 1 and add another pair that give Cha to all saves and AC, betting with the system you use that they are there. Then you can play and Oracle of anything, the Mystery is a wash at that point. And a 32 pt buy for stats....Demi Gods.

Also, when you post unbalancing house rules, and then tell people you don't want people to be annoyed or offended, that just makes it all the more annoying. The post appears to be bragging and not asking for advice. But then that's just a perception, and its not a CHA based skill, so it might be poorly noticed.


Yeah, it does. Sure it can do mounted combat fine, but that's about it. Its good revelations are not enough to make up for it's bonus spells which aside from barkskin are either poor, too situational as you climb the levels, or just meh.

That's the thing with the worst oracle mysteries, they usually have some sort of niche to make them not completely useless. Nature has mounted combat, Flame has Fireball to throw around and Firestorm a level early, heck wood can make a pretty good archer if you're an elf taking the lorekeeper archetype. Just because they have this niche though doesn't make them good compared to the other mysteries.

...Also I just noticed the trait that gives charisma to attack and damage. Is that a new thing, because that's kinda broken as s*+@.


Mounted combat characters aren't the only ones that can benefit from a powerful Animal Companion, and they're certainly not the only ones that can benefit from using their casting stat for AC with Barkskin stacked on top of that, plus adding their casting stat to a saving throw multiple times per day.

If you're really saying that multiple top-notch revelations plus a less exciting bonus spell list equals a really bad Mystery... well, we'll have to disagree on that one.

With all the archetypes that can play around with Revelations and bonus spells, I find that a good mystery is generally more about what you get than what you don't. Nature Mystery + Stargazer is a beautiful thematic combo with some really great bonus spells and revelations, and can make a fantastic melee/caster character even if you don't take the mount option. Though really... if you can get an intelligent mount and train it to use Airwalk, who wouldn't love that?


The problem is that is only has three top notch mysteries, and two of them are defensive. Sure that's great for reducing rocket tag, but it doesn't have that much of an impact as a whole. The only one that has the big impact is the mount, allowing you to use one of the best melee styles in the game...and even then you need to spend a few extra feats to get it really good.

Meanwhile Stargazer doesn't improve Nature by much. Guiding Star is good when you can get it but I'd rather not limit my party to adventuring on clear nights. Heck even if it was just limited to normal nighttime I wouldn't be a fan. Star chart is...okay I guess. I mean it's not like you can't grab divination or commune on your spells known list. It's not like they're that expensive to cast. It improves the spell situation a little with Wandering Star Motes and Glitterdust (and meteor swarm if you play that far,) but it looses Barkskin in the process.

I'm not saying Nature's unplayable, I'm saying it's weak compared to other mysteries. The most glaring example is Lunar who also gets charisma to AC and an animal companion. The only advantages Nature gets is its animal companion is a mount and it has access to barkskin. Mind you these are no small advantages, but compared to Lunar's pouncing cats with access to the cleric's spell list of many personal buffs and the natural attack potential of the mystery (we're talking about 3 attacks at level 1, 4 when haste shows up, 5 at level 11 with a race packing claws and that's if you don't want to take wolf-scarred face curse to go full werewolf, thematic and deadly~) it starts looking like a downgrade in general.


If you play to Level 20, Nature's Oracle is the most broken because you are allowed to count yourself as an Animal. Even ignoring broken "Awaken" loops, with the Animal Friend Revelation, you can also add your CHA bonus to your own saves. If you are allowed to play an animal race, then you don't even have to wait till level 20 at all.


Kaouse wrote:
If you play to Level 20, Nature's Oracle is the most defensive because you are allowed to count yourself as an Animal. Even ignoring broken "Awaken" loops, with the Animal Friend Revelation, you can also add your CHA bonus to your own saves. If you are allowed to play an animal race, then you don't even have to wait till level 20 at all.

I'm sorry, I don't care how good your saves are it does not beat Time Oracles and their time stop. And their 50% miss chance. And their rerolls. And their short action teleporting. And Foresight. And rolling for initiative three times. And Permanency.

Seriously, time is f%$%ing b~@@+$!$.


Time oracles are really good. But given a mystery where you only want a couple of revelations (like nature) you can happily take an archetype which loses some - warsighted or spirit guide or even psychic searcher.

Oracles are balanced enough that I could imagine making a character around almost any of the mysteries.


avr wrote:

Time oracles are really good. But given a mystery where you only want a couple of revelations (like nature) you can happily take an archetype which loses some - warsighted or spirit guide or even psychic searcher.

Oracles are balanced enough that I could imagine making a character around almost any of the mysteries.

Nature benefits from Warsighted pretty well, and maybe spirit guide but I do not like that archetype. At all. Stone also benefits from it having somewhat lackluster revelations (Mighty Pebble and Stone Stability notwithstanding) while having some pretty good bonus spells in both the low levels and high levels.

I'm not saying you can't make a good character with any mystery, I mean this is a full caster we're talking about here, I'm saying some mysteries are weaker than others. Even if a Nature Oracle is weaker than Ancestor Oracle they're still stronger than a lot of the other classes in Pathfinder.


Metal oracle stronger as a fighter than ancestor


It completely depends on your group composition. If your group has barbarians or fighters in it you ll find yourself fall behind in dmg after a certain lvl. By that time you also have so many spells that you feel your time is better spent buffing the group then yourself. My Oracle has 18 strenght at lvl 7 and I wanted him to be doing dmg with his spear but after the initial 2-3 rounds I am controlling the battlefield and buffing the group I feel it s pointless to start buffing myself to be able to compete with our frontline. You re are a full caster class and while it s certinly great for the first 5 lvls to be able to contribute to the battle with your weapon, after a while you ll start focusing more and more on spells. THis is just my experience as the sole divine casting class in our group. If you have a cleric in the group and not enough frontline then battle is certainly a good option, but if your group mostly relies on you for buffs, I feel alot of those battle abilities are waisted and you re better off mixing in some dmg spells. I ve started using intensified burning hands frequently and the odd fireball, some aoe dmg that my melee centric group really lacks.


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Rhaleroad wrote:

Weapon Bond Charisma as a Trait? That's a gift and a half. Also +2s whenever a friend is in danger? These are not traits, they are both better than any feat. +7 to hit and +5 damage every combat for a pair of traits, who cares if Battle seems OP, there is nothing in that Mystery that compares to those traits. Not judging you btw, just saying that with traits like that, no class abilities are going to overpower your groups own house rules. Not sure how a +7 to hit helps with RP, but really if you are going for more power, take Extra Traits feat and lvl 1 and add another pair that give Cha to all saves and AC, betting with the system you use that they are there. Then you can play and Oracle of anything, the Mystery is a wash at that point. And a 32 pt buy for stats....Demi Gods.

Also, when you post unbalancing house rules, and then tell people you don't want people to be annoyed or offended, that just makes it all the more annoying. The post appears to be bragging and not asking for advice. But then that's just a perception, and its not a CHA based skill, so it might be poorly noticed.

The OP is asking for advice. Taking offense to their house rules is on you.


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HyperMissingno wrote:
The problem is that is only has three top notch mysteries...

If your criteria for a mystery not to be 'one of the worst' is that every revelation you take is amazing and the bonus spell list is packed with powerhouse spells...

Lunar is arguably more interesting overall, though it does miss Natural Divination. It's great for a natural weapon build, though in the long run bashing away with high strength two-hander iteratives isn't really any less effective. But saying that Nature is very bad because Lunar is arguably better is like saying that Sorcerer is one of the worst classes because Wizard.

DEX/CHA Revelations are far from merely defensive, since they allow for a much more aggressive distribution of stat points (and CHA to saves doesn't hurt that purpose either). A Nature Oracle with Noble Scion and Irrepressible can min/max like crazy and still end up with exceptionally powerful derived stats. You could have 17/17 or 15/18 before racials with few issues (and a ton of benefits), and the themes of those Revelations even make min/max stats far, far cooler conceptually than the usual drooling hobo syndrome.

A Nature + Stargazer Oracle has one lackluster revelation and a bunch of great ones, and gets a couple of the best arcane spells out there. It may not be the 'ultimate' Oracle, but it's a great base for multiple types. I'm assuming the goalposts here are still 'not bad' instead of 'the best'.


Okay, you've misread some of my things and aren't getting what I'm arguing, at least I assume, so I'm going to make myself as clear as possible.

The nature mystery is weak when compared to other mysteries for a multitude of reasons, the biggest of which being that it cannot do anything significantly different from any other mystery aside from mounted combat and because its revelations are unable to make up for its bonus spells which have a tendency to lack impact. The fact than Lunar can do almost anything it can do better makes the problem that much worse.

Do you understand my argument now? I'm saying it's weak compared to other mysteries. And you know what? That's fine. No matter what mystery you take you can still kick serious ass with 9 levels of spellcasting. Some just kick more ass than others and Nature's one of the others here. I never said Nature couldn't hold its own in a campaign and never meant to imply it.


I was debating "nature is a contender for worst oracle mystery". And I'd also say "cannot do anything significantly different from any other mystery aside from mounted combat" is a little strange to say, considering you can pull a major ability swap, selectively add a major buff to saves, initiative and/or skill checks, and train an intelligent Monstrous Mount to fight/guard with Divine buffs even if you have no intention of riding it. Lunar is very similar and one I'd quite possibly choose instead, but I could easily see using Nature over Lunar depending on exactly what I was looking for. Being able to toss a +10 onto an important Diplomacy check or a +7 onto a crucial saving throw is nothing to scoff at.

Anyhow, we'll just have to disagree. I get why you don't like Nature; fair enough. I would agree that Time is easily one of the best mysteries, but even then it's all very dependent on what kind of character one is going for. An Oracle that can both cast with high CHA and bust heads with high STR while protected by towering defense and buffed saves is a thing of beauty, at least in my opinion.


what is "Weapon Bond Charisma" ? i could not find it anywhere...


i always prefer the shaman that get the ancestor & time revelations for free with battle as a spirit.
it's one of the best characters i have seen.... if only it had more skill per level.


666bender wrote:

what is "Weapon Bond Charisma" ? i could not find it anywhere...

Table-specific traits (both of them) in the OP. I looked for it too. ;)


lvl 2 Paladin + Nature/Lunar Oracle + Noble Scion "Everything to CHA" setup?

I keep getting reminded why Oracle is my favorite class over uRogue, but i keep making rogues for some reason ^^;


Dracoknight wrote:

lvl 2 Paladin + Nature/Lunar Oracle + Noble Scion "Everything to CHA" setup?

I keep getting reminded why Oracle is my favorite class over uRogue, but i keep making rogues for some reason ^^;

Personally I'd go Paladin with a dip into Nature/Lunar/Lore for that one given Smite Evil and Lay on Hands both go off the stat, meaning you sorta have charisma to HP and a few times per day you have charisma to attack and double charisma to defense since smite gives a deflection bonus...assuming you can find a deity that would make Nature/Lunar/Lore oracles out of paladins.

Grand Lodge

Did not read every reply but:

Spirit Guide Archetype can help you with versatility as a spontaneous Caster giving you option every day as new challenges are thrown your way. You lose a Few Revelations...but since you can take feats or buy items to replace them it is not a bad trade off at all.

I'm a fan of the Soothsayer's Raiment. I'm currently playing a Life Oracle with it and have one of the best AC's in the group in Medium armor. But I do not swing a weapon so I can use a shield as well. (Of Course I'm using these spells: Magic Vestment, Ironskin, and Shield of Faith. I use a lesser extend rod on magic Vestment the night before so I have a full spell list.)

That is my 2 cents.


HyperMissingno wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
If you play to Level 20, Nature's Oracle is the most defensive because you are allowed to count yourself as an Animal. Even ignoring broken "Awaken" loops, with the Animal Friend Revelation, you can also add your CHA bonus to your own saves. If you are allowed to play an animal race, then you don't even have to wait till level 20 at all.

I'm sorry, I don't care how good your saves are it does not beat Time Oracles and their time stop. And their 50% miss chance. And their rerolls. And their short action teleporting. And Foresight. And rolling for initiative three times. And Permanency.

Seriously, time is f@@$ing b%%$@~$!.

You only say this because you presumably don't know the horror of "Awaken Animal" Loops.

Everytime you cast Awaken Animal, your HD increases, as do your stats (notably CHA). Since you can always count yourself as an Animal, you can always qualify for the spell. Over. And Over. Ad Nauseum.

Effectively this means Infinite Saves, Infinite HD, Infinite Initiative (Noble Scion), Infinite AC, etc.

If you have the ability to add CHA to attack/damage, then you could get those up to infinite as well.

Plus, most of the b+#&!@&$ you mentioned can be replicated with Wizard spells, which any divine class can cherry pick from if they so desire with the feat "Dreamed Secrets."


give me 1 reason why any oracle of time is any better than a shaman "speaker of time" . ?
free mega hexes? got it.
a spirit and 2 revelations ? got it.

Grand Lodge

Kaouse wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
If you play to Level 20, Nature's Oracle is the most defensive because you are allowed to count yourself as an Animal. Even ignoring broken "Awaken" loops, with the Animal Friend Revelation, you can also add your CHA bonus to your own saves. If you are allowed to play an animal race, then you don't even have to wait till level 20 at all.

I'm sorry, I don't care how good your saves are it does not beat Time Oracles and their time stop. And their 50% miss chance. And their rerolls. And their short action teleporting. And Foresight. And rolling for initiative three times. And Permanency.

Seriously, time is f@@$ing b%%$@~$!.

You only say this because you presumably don't know the horror of "Awaken Animal" Loops.

Everytime you cast Awaken Animal, your HD increases, as do your stats (notably CHA). Since you can always count yourself as an Animal, you can always qualify for the spell. Over. And Over. Ad Nauseum.

Effectively this means Infinite Saves, Infinite HD, Infinite Initiative (Noble Scion), Infinite AC, etc.

If you have the ability to add CHA to attack/damage, then you could get those up to infinite as well.

Plus, most of the b~@+*&&~ you mentioned can be replicated with Wizard spells, which any divine class can cherry pick from if they so desire with the feat "Dreamed Secrets."

Awaken wrote:
This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2.

You were saying about Spam? That pretty much blocks you from using it on yourself unless you like PCs with a 2 INT. And stops you from recasting.


Oh yes Dreamed Secrets, yes, remind me, how many spells at a time can they grab at once? 2, and they have to be lower than the highest level cast. In other words Time does it earlier and with more at once. Plus you can't grab time stop with it either.

And that's not counting a Time oracle grabbing this feat nor is it counting a certain prereq in that feat...

666bender wrote:

give me 1 reason why any oracle of time is any better than a shaman "speaker of time" . ?

We're comparing oracles to oracles. Talk about shamans somewhere else.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:


Awaken wrote:
This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2.
You were saying about Spam? That pretty much blocks you from using it on yourself unless you like PCs with a 2 INT. And stops you from recasting.

Nice find. Though I suppose for a level 20 caster, getting past that restriction probably isn't all that difficult.

Creating a Ghost to use Draining Touch repeatedly could work. Hell, using Dreamed Secrets to get Feeblemind could work too, but then you'd have to make sure you have say, a Familiar or some sort of minion, to complete the spells for you in your incapacitated state. Then just cast "Heal" or some such, and return yourself to normal.

Of course, all of this is 100% theoretical, and will never be used in serious gameplay unless you have a s@#$ ton of downtime.

Also, if we're talking about overpowered Oracles, how have we yet to talk about the Cyclopean Seer? Most OP thing I've ever seen.

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