I haven't done a two-weapon fighting build in some time and I'm looking into doing a build using two equally-sized weapons; longswords, morning stars, not sure yet. Are there any feats, aside from the basic two-weapon fighting feats, which would make something like that more viable? Reduce penalties for using oversided weapons, let a one-handed weapon count as light, etc?
also isn't there some feat that let's you have your hand be possessed and reduces the TWF penalty by 2 or something.
Effortless lace. For 2.5k have your offhand one-handed weapon treated as light for the purposes of feats.
yes, new feats in the new horror book with the possessed hand.
yes, new feats in the new horror book with the possessed hand.
I'm looking through Horror Adventures right now but I can't seem to find what you're talking about. Anybody have a specific name?
Effortless Lace is the easy solution, though it's not legal for PFS.
Really, anything that stacks up attack bonus can counter a -2; the viability problem with two large weapons tends to be way overstated, since people think "it's a -4, and weapon dice are irrelevant!" instead of "it's -2 more, and I get a little damage out of it at least".
I had a friend who used a dual longsword Evangelist Cleric/ Fighter 1 that had absurd accuracy without Effortless Lace: Inspire Courage, Heroism, Divine Favor/Power, Fate's Favored. By 8, one round of buffing and pre-cast Heroism was worth a +7, which cancels out the -4 from TWF and the lesser BAB with bonus to spare.
Effortless Lace is the easy solution, though it's not legal for PFS.
Really? Why? It's not overpowered at all. It's 2.5k for a very minor damage increase. Man PFS irks me.
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There is also the sawtooth sabre: "If you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre) feat, for the purpose of two-weapon fighting you can treat it as a light melee weapon; for all other purposes it is a one-handed melee weapon."
And there's always the old two-bastard-swords-but-one's-a-Sun-Blade trick.
Exotic weapon proficiency: Sawtooth Saber
Treated as a light weapon in the off hand.
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Effortless Lace is the easy solution, though it's not legal for PFS.Really? Why? It's not overpowered at all. It's 2.5k for a very minor damage increase. Man PFS irks me.
I believe that the PFS community actually requested that it be banned because it offers a large increase in damage output for a mediocre cost.
I believe that the PFS community actually requested that it be banned because it offers a large increase in damage output for a mediocre cost.Effortless Lace is the easy solution, though it's not legal for PFS.Really? Why? It's not overpowered at all. It's 2.5k for a very minor damage increase. Man PFS irks me.
The damage increase is on average 1. Average for a d6 is 3.5, average for a d8 is 4.5. If anything it's not efficient at all. A +1 weapon is better than that.
It's also quite a steal when you can spend 2,500 to wield a large bastard sword with no penalty instead of a greatsword. Or dual wield bastard swords instead of shortswords.
Edit: not that I really agree with the need to ban it.
Haha well I guess I can see the argument for falcatas.
Eh, bastard sword. 2 damage increase for 2.5k. Not overpowered.
Maybe they should ban tiefling Paladins with oath of vengeance. There's a whole colony of them by now.
Eh, bastard sword. 2 damage increase for 2.5k. Not overpowered.
Well, compared to needing a feat and Fighter 4 to take Weapon Specialization, or improving damage by buying a larger strength increase item or a higher weapon enhancement... 2.5k is nothing in the long run, and extra damage is very valuable on some builds.
I wouldn't be surprised though if the ban was in large part due to the enormous potential for arguing over rules.
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It counts as a Light weapon with the Effortless Lance feat as far as how it is used with feats and abilities, but it is still a One Handed weapon. The feat allows for an oversized One Handed weapon to be used with Two Hands with the lesser penalty, or have a One Handed weapon count as Light when applying feats/abilities with that weapon. When using the normal sized weapon, the penalties are still for the One Handed Weapon, the reduction in attack rolls is only when it is for a weapon that is made for a creature larger than the wielder.
Bastard swords can be wielded as such only if the character has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency with it, as normal.
To be clear, the Two Weapon Fighting feat does not interact with this feat, the character is already wielding two One Handed (assumingly, as the player wants to wield two one handed weapons) and the TWF feat itself does not mention the light handed offhand use giving the additional reduction. This would help when using a light weapon in the offhand, as Weapon Finesse and other feats/abilities can benefit the player as he wields the one handed (ribboned) weapon in his main hand.
While the wording of Effortless Lace does actually kind of let TWF slip through the cracks when you really analyze it, it's been stated by the designer that Effortless Lace is intended to remove the additional penalty for using TWF with two one-handed weapons, and so it's been accepted that it works for that purpose.
So it's worth a feat. 2.5k for a feat. That's pretty fair.
Yeah, neither would I. In my experience, PFS GMs have been either incompetent or unwilling to challenge their own understanding of the rules.
Bracer's of archery is an overpowered item (the pre-errata version anyways). Boots of the earth is an overpowered item. There are countless examples of absolutely stupid items. As it is this item is just pretty cash efficient.
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While the wording of Effortless Lace does actually kind of let TWF slip through the cracks when you really analyze it, it's been stated by the designer that Effortless Lace is intended to remove the additional penalty for using TWF with two one-handed weapons, and so it's been accepted that it works for that purpose.
That is good to know. It seems weird that only oversized weapons get the reduction in penalty, though. It is rather confusing.
The damage increase is on average 1. Average for a d6 is 3.5, average for a d8 is 4.5. If anything it's not efficient at all. A +1 weapon is better than that.I believe that the PFS community actually requested that it be banned because it offers a large increase in damage output for a mediocre cost.Effortless Lace is the easy solution, though it's not legal for PFS.Really? Why? It's not overpowered at all. It's 2.5k for a very minor damage increase. Man PFS irks me.
It's not the damage die. It's the fact that you only need to take weapon focus, weapon specialization, weapon training, etc. once, applying it equally to both weapons.
In the grand scheme of things, it's fairly minor, but anything non-standard sets off a certain sub-set of players/GMs.
For a Fighter, Effortless Dual Wielding works (Advanced Weapon Training).
As a fighter, just take Focused Weapon [Advanced Weapon Training] and a pair of Kukri.
Dual wielding the falcata or katana is an awful lot cooler than dual wielding the kukri. Sometimes people care about character concept. Dual kukri and dual wakizashi are so played out it's painful. At this point, even wielding two longswords is way more original.
Dual wielding the falcata or katana is an awful lot cooler than dual wielding the kukri. Sometimes people care about character concept. Dual kukri and dual wakizashi are so played out it's painful. At this point, even wielding two longswords is way more original.
Certain weapons are popular for good reason.
Kukri trades off base weapon damage for high crit rate. Except for the fighter or Warpriest, who get scaling weapon damage.
Dual wielding longswords is certainly a different approach in Pathfinder, mostly because it is mechanically difficult to pull off for most classes. The player making the choice, however, should understand why if is mechanically inferior. You can get literally the exact same attack routine using a two-bladed sword without burning an Advanced Weapon Training option. Or, you could have a (1d8/18-20/x2) profile as opposed to a (1d8/19-20/x2) profile at 5th level, with continued damage scaling at higher level, by expending an Advanced Weapon Training option.
Also, as a fighter, you should be looking into Dex-to-hit and Str-to-damage. With Trained Grace you get to apply double your Weapon Training bonus to damage.
*I'm not implying a character should avoid making choices based off character concept instead of mechanics. I'm just advocating that the player should understand the mechanical implications of his choices before he makes them.
It's not some stark choice of concept vs. mechanics, where you sacrifice combat effectiveness on the bloody alter of character concept. I can't count the number of times I've seen players told to "just use kukris" or other such things, with grim warnings of the horrors of non-optimization. In reality, the differences tend to me minor, or non-existent with a small resource allocation. A simple Effortless Lace or AWT grab makes dual longswords no-penalty d8s for TWF, which is hardly some gravely underpowered option, even if an obsessive optimizer would have save vs. nausea. Crit-fishing with dual falcatas is hilarious.
It's not some stark choice of concept vs. mechanics, where you sacrifice combat effectiveness on the bloody alter of character concept. I can't count the number of times I've seen players told to "just use kukris" or other such things, with grim warnings of the horrors of non-optimization. In reality, the differences tend to me minor, or non-existent with a small resource allocation. A simple Effortless Lace or AWT grab makes dual longswords no-penalty d8s for TWF, which is hardly some gravely underpowered option, even if an obsessive optimizer would have save vs. nausea. Crit-fishing with dual falcatas is hilarious.
The size of the die rolled is the least important thing and trivial in the long term. At higher level the fighter is dealing base 2d6 (or more) damage with any weapon, from an unarmed strikes to a two-handed sword.
The differentiating factors for weapons, for a fighter, are thematics, number of hands required, reach and crit profile.
All of which is missing the point of what I was saying. You really don't need to recite Optimization Litany to me; I've heard it before.