Customer Service Manager
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks, Sara Marie!
A question, since this is perhaps at the root of the contention: is there a reporting mechanism regarding moderator action that a community member can use if we feel that the moderators have not acted fairly or sufficiently explained decisions regarding moderation activity?
Essentially, who do we ask for a second opinion?
The first step in most cases is going to be to email community@paizo.com, and this is because more than just Chris or myself monitor that email. It allows us to hopefully resolve any misunderstanding or issue quickly and efficiently. Bypassing this is, in many cases, like a cashier giving you the wrong change at a register and instantly demanding to speak to a manager. The quickest and most expedient route to resolution is to let us know, via email, that there is a issue.
If a community member feels that they have reason that they need to bypass the community inbox, my recommendation would be to send an email via customer.service@paizo.com, provided the person sending an email feels comfortable with that option. This allows Paizo to ensure that the correct people are alerted to the issue. If its something that overlaps with PFS, for example, we want to loop in Tonya. If its a gross misunderstanding or a technical issue, we can resolve those before it continues to escalate.
Bypassing those two options and heading straight to our Chief Operations Officer, Jeff Alvarez is something I would recommend only for seriously egregious issues.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had a problem with a moderator once. I called the supervisor and was told that the moderator was wonderful and they would back their decisions. Real open to customer feedback right?
If you equate being open as being subservient to every single piece of feedback given, then no.
|
Customer Service Manager
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had a problem with a moderator once. I called the supervisor and was told that the moderator was wonderful and they would back their decisions. Real open to customer feedback right?
While the moderation team is open to feedback and upper level management is willing to listen to escalated issues, this is not a guarantee that everyone will be in agreement with the results, or that decisions will be reversed.
|
I had a problem with a moderator once. I called the supervisor and was told that the moderator was wonderful and they would back their decisions. Real open to customer feedback right?If you equate being open as being subservient to every single piece of feedback given, then no.
I dont believe that is what I said now was it?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had a problem with a moderator once. I called the supervisor and was told that the moderator was wonderful and they would back their decisions. Real open to customer feedback right?While the moderation team is open to feedback and upper level management is willing to listen to escalated issues, this is not a guarantee that everyone will be in agreement with the results, or that decisions will be reversed.
Dismissing of someone's complaint because the person being complained to because they thought the other person was wonderful is really not listening. There is a difference. Giving someone free reign because upper management things that the person can walk on water is not listening to valid complaints. Agreement is not necessary in Customer or even human relations, but the flippant attitude is insulting to people.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
f - There seems to be a correlation of the banhammer with the lgtb topics. Paizo choose to include controversial topics in their published materials but it seems that it can't handle discussions about it (And I'm not talking about the occasional jerk that rant about how a trans character in WoTR will send everyone to hell or something), specially if the poster opinion doesn't align with the moderator at hand. You are free of course to not want some topic to be discussed, but if that is the case make it a rule and make it clear for everyone.
Dialouge and discussion only works when people can be honest and respectful towards each other. If something comes up, that is how it should be handled. Other wise it can be seen as pandering to one part of the fan base while dismissing the thoughts of others. Just because people do not agree does not make the person doing the disagreement a bigot or a bad person.
All you need is love and a d20.
You missed a bit in your description of events.
Did you explain to the supervisor what had happened, or did they immediately come on the phone, not listen at all, and tell you "they're wonderful, and I will back their decisions, goodbye"?
Because one of those is fine, and the other sucks, and you're trying very hard to make it look like the latter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
e - Quite frankly, I see here a lot of jerkish behaviour being allowed, as long as the jerk at hand defend certain positions that seems to be OK for the moderators. I know that you guys doesn't like the "paizo defense team" title, forum members like Gorbacz would have been perma banned long time ago if he were not so fan of paizo. Not that I'm the nicest poster ever mind you, but I've seen the behaviour being allowed against nicer posters than me.
f - There seems to be a correlation of the banhammer with the lgtb topics. Paizo choose to include controversial topics in their published materials but it seems that it can't handle discussions about it (And I'm not talking about the occasional jerk that rant about how a trans character in WoTR will send everyone to hell or something), specially if the poster opinion doesn't align with the moderator at hand. You are free of course to not want some topic to be discussed, but if that is the case make it a rule and make it clear for everyone.
Mostly want to address f in Nicos post. While I didn't have the dubious privilege to see this last argument before The Great Banning, I will say that I have seen a great bit of "grar" in any thread where LGBTQIA comes up. Whether it is political, social, religious or whatever in the disagreement, people start getting hot under the collar when it is brought up.
It does seem that, from posting habits, that many mods if not all are very pro-LGBTQIA and that is great. However, that means that they tend to clash when they run into some of the posters here, especially when it isn't clear if they are speaking as themselves or as MOD PERSON.
I'd hate to see the conversations stifled on the topic, but at the same time we need to come to a happy medium on this. There are insults being seen, I believe, that are not there. It's a hot button issue for many people, and one that -- like many hot button topics -- that people get passionate about, even mods.
I think, and just in my opinion without any facts, that might be the cause of a great many of the disagreements and hard feelings in some of these fights. What can we do about it? That is the real question.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I had a complaint dont you think I would express what happened? After I explained what happened they gave that response. When I questioned that type of attitude the manager got mad and became more dismissive. I responded that Customer Service shouldnt work that way. listening to a complaint is important, and was told that I could take my business some where else.
Developer
|
| 19 people marked this as a favorite. |
f - There seems to be a correlation of the banhammer with the lgtb topics. Paizo choose to include controversial topics in their published materials but it seems that it can't handle discussions about it (And I'm not talking about the occasional jerk that rant about how a trans character in WoTR will send everyone to hell or something), specially if the poster opinion doesn't align with the moderator at hand. You are free of course to not want some topic to be discussed, but if that is the case make it a rule and make it clear for everyone.
Quick side note: LGBT people are not "controversial topics." LGBT people are human being we ask be treated with respect and humanity in our company spaces, especially considering that we have many employees who fall within that community and are required to participate in the forums as part of our jobs
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
d - Having said that, I do find it quite unbelievable how the situation developed. We had one forum member grossly misunderstanding what other people were saying and creating a lot of confrontation where there was non. And the result is that the guy that was creating the problems is still active while the others (that quite honestly, acted very civilized in face of the undeserved attacks) were banned. Not that I'm the nicest poster ever, but I've seen the behaviour being allowed against nicer posters than me.
e - Quite frankly, I see here a lot of jerkish behaviour being allowed, as long as the jerk at hand defend certain positions that seems to be OK for the moderators. I know that you guys doesn't like the "paizo defense team" title, forum members like Gorbacz would have been perma banned long time ago if he were not so fan of paizo.
Agreed on these points. I won't say this person or that, though, as I don't have some weird crystal ball that tells me others' associations. However, the pattern over time belies the dynamic regardless whether through intent or accident.
f - There seems to be a correlation of the banhammer with the lgtb topics.
I've not been around those threads enough to spot that particular pattern, but this seems odd to me. These events do make it seem like that. Coupled with the above, it's as if the pattern was something like:
- Users talk about trans stuff
- Another user comes in a picks at the issue way out of left field
- User defends self and issue
- User gets banned or thread gets moderated to all hell, letting the instigator often go free
That is a pattern I've seen way more than once and is a large part of the reason I make the criticisms I do. Actions speak an order of magnitude louder than words. I find Paizo's rhetoric in this case to be at odds with what its hands are doing.
The reason I made the earlier post about The Great Game from Dragon Age and calling this a dance summarizes my feelings on the issue. It seems topics can be discussed at length for a good long while. When one or two posters come in and start a ruckus then the moderation swoops in, nukes everything and we get a vague post. It is very convenient timing. Say I'm wearing a tin foil hat all you wish. I've seen it happen again and again. Topics don't seem to be the issue. Individuals are.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, the forum moderators have an option with Paizo staff that they do not have with the rest of us: They can walk over to that person's desk and call him or her to task in person. If they ever do that, there is no reason to believe that we would ever be informed of such a discussion.
There are insults being seen, I believe, that are not there.
It's like you're psychic, man.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quick side note: LGBT people are not "controversial topics." LGBT people are human being we ask be treated with respect and humanity in our company spaces, especially considering that we have many employees who fall within that community and are required to participate in the forums as part of our jobs
Then, please, enlarge that company space to include the forums and afford the folks here the same protections you, yourselves, enjoy, including from and especially to other members of the Paizo staff.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, the forum moderators have an option with Paizo staff that they do not have with the rest of us: They can walk over to that person's desk and call him or her to task in person. If they ever do that, there is no reason to believe that we would ever be informed of such a discussion.
And this would explain offending posts not getting removed, how?
|
Developer
|
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quick side note: LGBT people are not "controversial topics." LGBT people are human being we ask be treated with respect and humanity in our company spaces, especially considering that we have many employees who fall within that community and are required to participate in the forums as part of our jobsThen, please, enlarge that company space to include the forums and afford the folks here the same protections you, yourselves, enjoy, including from and especially to other members of the Paizo staff.
You'll note we also don't tolerate people using our forums to proclaim that heterosexuality is a mental illness, or dictate how straight people should act if they don't want to be fired for being heterosexual.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quick side note: LGBT people are not "controversial topics." LGBT people are human being we ask be treated with respect and humanity in our company spaces, especially considering that we have many employees who fall within that community and are required to participate in the forums as part of our jobsThen, please, enlarge that company space to include the forums and afford the folks here the same protections you, yourselves, enjoy, including from and especially to other members of the Paizo staff.
I don't see what the problem is. Out of all the Internet, safe spaces for LGBTIQ people are very very rare. Paizo has made an effort to be progressive and inclusive in it's products and messageboards. Do the non-LGBTIQ folk really need to turn Paizo into yet another place to abstractly poke, prod, and dissect LGBTIQ identities?! While actual LGBTIQ customers and Paizo employees are sitting right here, sharing the same space?! Really?!
If you've got a burning need to do so, maybe find another board to pick the topic apart, or set up a free blog at Blogger or Wordpress. Many of us deal with these little and big aggressions to our identity every day, and I'd rather not have to also absorb them here too. Is that too much to ask?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which is all beside the point, and not even what's being talked about.
Is Paizo pro-LGBTQ? Yes.
Do they include these kinds of characters and topics into their products? Yes.
Are they a progressive company? Yes.
Are any of these things bad? NO.
Now that that is out of the way, what on God's green Earth does that have to do with an SJW dropping into a thread and blowing it up, and the wrong person getting in trouble for it?
You'll note we also don't tolerate people using our forums to proclaim that heterosexuality is a mental illness, or dictate how straight people should act if they don't want to be fired for being heterosexual.
I've seen the screenshots of the conversation before moderation action was taken. At no point did I see either of those happen. I saw accusations of it happening. That conclusion drawn from the posts as they were is bridging topics in a way the poster clearly did not intend and intent should matter here. There were no extra posts or text to support that interpretation letting them scapegoat "oopsy" style. The figures shown were clearly a relative measure of the number of people and not circumstance in which they live.
Why not send a note and allow them to edit the post or have a chat with them and then use that as a factor in how moderators respond? At the end of it all, the person(s) who got banned included people in that community who, objectively, themselves did nothing wrong on the boards. So, you have to ask yourself: which cause was actually protected as a result of the action here?
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now that that is out of the way, what on God's green Earth does that have to do with an SJW...
Annnnd you lost me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see what the problem is. Out of all the Internet, safe spaces for LGBTIQ people are very very rare. Paizo has made an effort to be progressive and inclusive in it's products and messageboards. Do the non-LGBTIQ folk really need to turn Paizo into yet another place to abstractly poke, prod, and dissect LGBTIQ identities?! While actual LGBTIQ customers and Paizo employees are sitting right here, sharing the same space?! Really?!
If you've got a burning need to do so, maybe find another board to pick the topic apart, or set up a free blog at Blogger or Wordpress. Many of us deal with these little and big aggressions to our identity every day, and I'd rather not have to also absorb them here too. Is that too much to ask?
And yet, a trans user of the boards is no longer welcomed here by Paizo. So, clearly, it's not such a safe space, afterall. There was no poking, prodding, or dissection involved. Someone clearly misunderstood the topic as they were being discussed because that someone wasn't involved. They thought they would mantle themselves for a cause that was not involved in the thread prior to their participation. They included it and twisted the discussion, not the people that were actually having the discussion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, I do not have all of the relevant information to say if the ban was warranted or not. That being said, if anyone ever has a complaint, whether it is reasonable or legitimate (or not, in some cases), communicating that complaint with sarcasm, negativity, hostility, or loaded with a lot of emotional intensity, at any point in the discussion, is not helping anyone on either end of the communication.
If you are filing a grievance, try to bear in mind that you are neither the first person banging on the door nor the last person to call on the phone with a grievance. Just as any customer or community member seek a place to engage in an environment that fosters and support their love of the products that an organization puts out, so should we strive to remember that the employees of that organization seek a workplace that meets their needs too (a safe and healthy workplace, for example).
The same thing above applies to the staff in reverse; strive for professionalism, understanding, and clarity in communication.
Thus, both parties should strive for civility and sound reasoning in their responses to each other, affording each other a modicum of respect. If a conclusion is reached after deliberation that is not satisfactory to your liking, maybe it's time to accept that perhaps the differences in expectations and perception between the two parties is a gap that cannot be bridged at that time. That is a good time for both parties to walk away from the table.
I appreciate the level of effort put forth by Paizo to be as inclusive as possible. I think that given the size of the organization and the size of the global community that they interact with every day, they have done a pretty damn good job. Can they do better? Yes, there is always room for improvement in one area or another for ANY organization.
I wish the moderation team good luck and I hope that community board members will continue to work together to enjoy an online environment that is friendly (from both members and the Paizo team), engaging, and respectful.
Cheers!
CB out.
|
Customer Service Manager
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
c - I also know that some of the banned people have clashed with the moderation in the past and would not be surprised if they were have been banned in other situation.
This absolutely happens. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.
d - Having said that, I do find it quite unbelievable how the situation developed. We had one forum member grossly misunderstanding what other people were saying and creating a lot of confrontation where there was none. And the result is that the guy that was creating the problems is still active while the others (that quite honestly, acted very civilized in face of the undeserved attacks) were banned.
Online situations can escalate really quickly. Moderation is not a precise science. I'm reviewing what happened with Chris. Its not likely that we'll have anything resolved one way or another prior to the weekend. I have my own pressing customer service duties that need attention, and while I feel this situation needs resolution, I also have obligations to customers and my coworkers that I need to balance. Additionally, any followup that we do feel is appropriate will occur with the folks that were affected. I know that is not what a lot of you want to hear, but its imperative from our end that we maintain our users' privacy.
e - Quite frankly, I see here a lot of jerkish behaviour being allowed, as long as the jerk at hand defend certain positions that seems to be OK for the moderators. I know that you guys doesn't like the "paizo defense team" title, but forum members like Gorbacz would have been perma banned long time ago if he were not so fan of paizo. Not that I'm the nicest poster ever mind you, but I've seen the behaviour being allowed against nicer posters than me.
I think there is definitely validity here. The RPG community is small and Paizo has for quite some time, emphasized a more communicable, accessible and friendly atmosphere with our community. It can be easy to read a lighter or less harsh tone into someone's words when we've met them or have a longer history with them. Our goal is to do our best to recognize our biases and work from a neutral perspective, but that's hard. An area I think the moderation team can spend some time reflecting on for sure.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now that that is out of the way, what on God's green Earth does that have to do with an SJW...Annnnd you lost me.That was what happened even if you don't like that term. There was one poster being morally offended and trying to defend trans people's right where in reality nobody was attacking trans people.
In the end, there was only one poster starting and propagating the flames and that posters is still here.
They weren't banned for the discussion, they were banned for their reaction to the discussion getting deleted, and probably other things.
|
Customer Service Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
f - There seems to be a correlation of the banhammer with the lgtb topics. Paizo choose to include controversial topics in their published materials but it seems that it can't handle discussions about it (And I'm not talking about the occasional jerk that rant about how a trans character in WoTR will send everyone to hell or something), specially if the poster opinion doesn't align with the moderator at hand. You are free of course to not want some topic to be discussed, but if that is the case make it a rule and make it clear for everyone.
I just want to note that I am not ignoring this one. There's some stuff in here I absolutely want to address, but I didn't want to hold up other answers while I work out what I want to say.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They weren't banned for the discussion, they were banned for their reaction to the discussion getting deleted, and probably other things.
Which wouldn't have happened if it was left alone, or the correct person addressed.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
And yet, a trans user of the boards is no longer welcomed here by Paizo. So, clearly, it's not such a safe space, afterall. There was no poking, prodding, or dissection involved. Someone clearly misunderstood the topic as they were being discussed because that someone wasn't involved. They thought they would mantle themselves for a cause that was not involved in the thread prior to their participation. They included it and twisted the discussion, not the people that were actually having the discussion.
My impression was the trans user
1) has had repeated incidents of being argumentative, abrasive, and dismissive/abusive to others2) was repeatedly warned to knock it off
3) and this last incident was the final straw
LGBTIQ folk can absorb and internalize self-hateful and self-defeating rhetoric as easily as members any other marginalized group. If they want to unpack, dismantle, and work through that, more power to them. But being trans (or LGBIQ) doesn't give them a free pass to dump that toxic stuff on other trans folk, especially when they're not working through it and just parroting the hateful soundbites of people like M!lo Y!annopoulos and Bla!r Wh!te. That's not conducive to an inclusive community.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And yet, a trans user of the boards is no longer welcomed here by Paizo. So, clearly, it's not such a safe space, afterall. There was no poking, prodding, or dissection involved. Someone clearly misunderstood the topic as they were being discussed because that someone wasn't involved. They thought they would mantle themselves for a cause that was not involved in the thread prior to their participation. They included it and twisted the discussion, not the people that were actually having the discussion.I don't see what the problem is. Out of all the Internet, safe spaces for LGBTIQ people are very very rare. Paizo has made an effort to be progressive and inclusive in it's products and messageboards. Do the non-LGBTIQ folk really need to turn Paizo into yet another place to abstractly poke, prod, and dissect LGBTIQ identities?! While actual LGBTIQ customers and Paizo employees are sitting right here, sharing the same space?! Really?!
If you've got a burning need to do so, maybe find another board to pick the topic apart, or set up a free blog at Blogger or Wordpress. Many of us deal with these little and big aggressions to our identity every day, and I'd rather not have to also absorb them here too. Is that too much to ask?
I missed the specific posts in question (I never followed Ashiel FAQ thread). I have however seen a few cases involving said posters being a bit...for lack of better terms...tone death on phrasing of arguments or statements. What one group may seem as "reasonable" another group may not. I know Ashiel in question, on related topics, has been asked to drop a specific tangent dealing with LGBTQ topics for similar reasons.
Basically because you found something reasonable and harmless, does not mean it was interpreted so by other posters, including lurkers and staff.
|
Customer Service Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I had a complaint dont you think I would express what happened? After I explained what happened they gave that response. When I questioned that type of attitude the manager got mad and became more dismissive. I responded that Customer Service shouldnt work that way. listening to a complaint is important, and was told that I could take my business some where else.
If this was via email, you're welcome to forward it to community@paizo.com and we can include this in our ongoing discussion of responding to community members. Giving a perfect response every time is an unrealistic goal, but having some additional context here might help us in the future address concerns like this better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Basically because you found something reasonable and harmless, does not mean it was interpreted so by other posters, including lurkers and staff.
It wasn't offensive. It would have been better if the person had actually read the post, and did not assume the worst about the poster.
They weren't banned for the discussion, they were banned for their reaction to the discussion getting deleted, and probably other things.Which wouldn't have happened if it was left alone, or the correct person addressed.
Absolutely! In hindsight all parties involved needed time to consider, that they didn't take.
If that makes sense...
And this would explain offending posts not getting removed, how?Of course, the forum moderators have an option with Paizo staff that they do not have with the rest of us: They can walk over to that person's desk and call him or her to task in person. If they ever do that, there is no reason to believe that we would ever be informed of such a discussion.
The fact that Paizo employees are in the same building would change many things about how their board postings are moderated, and this would probably be one of them. One reason not to remove postings by Paizo employees would be that they don't agree with the person complaining about it. On the other hand, if they see the employee as a potential troublemaker, they don't want to hide the paper trail that they are leaving. In between, a likely result of such a discussion would be a warning not to do whatever they did again.
But the fact remains that Paizo management can do far worse things to offending employees than delete their messages ban them from the message boards -- and few of them would really see having access to these boards as a privilege anyway.
|
Customer Service Manager
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, the forum moderators have an option with Paizo staff that they do not have with the rest of us: They can walk over to that person's desk and call him or her to task in person.
That is not an option for anyone on the moderation team to enact. We can have conversations with coworkers, we can remind them of our forum policies, we can discuss things with our manager or escalate it internally, but it is not with the purview of the moderation team to "take coworkers to task".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not only was this not moderated, a Paizo member favorited the initial post in question.
I will say that someone might favorite a post for a single thought or sentence rather than the entire post. There isn't any way to know their intent short of asking. Or at least I often favorite over part of a post or a certain idea I agree with.
Dear Sara Marie,
I think you and the mods here do a great job. Mostly because I know I don't toe a line in terms of keeping to script. (Cites most of his thread postings on Product Discussion) But I'm also glad you know when to be tough too. Too often I've seen...well let's say less moderation and more wildfire on the internets.
So it's awesome here at Paizo that I can post pretty much at will without worrying I'm stepping on toes.
At least when I know I'm not.
So...yeah.
Thanks.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My impression was the trans user
1) has had repeated incidents of being argumentative, abrasive, and dismissive/abusive to others
2) was repeatedly warned to knock it off
3) and this last incident was the final straw
Again, context and intent matters. Given how much of an emotional strain I can only imagine it to be to embrace what society treats dismissively, this was the only place they had come out to. This place was their refuge for that aspect of their life and was the ONLY place they were "out." So, it's more than fair that they should have been given some leeway with how they responded, and AGAIN, instead of just issuing rulings maybe actually talk out what's going on.
Maybe you don't think you have time for that, but that should factor in the decision to claim you're this super inclusive community. It means, inherently, having a LOT of different opinions that take talking through to get to the bottom of what's going on.
LGBTIQ folk can absorb and internalize self-hateful and self-defeating rhetoric as easily as members any other marginalized group. If they want to unpack, dismantle, and work through that, more power to them. But being trans (or LGBIQ) doesn't give them a free pass to dump that toxic stuff on other trans folk, especially when they're not working through it and just parroting the hateful soundbites of people like M!lo Y!annopoulos and Bla!r Wh!te. That's not conducive to an inclusive community.
Nowhere did this happen. This whole paragraph is a strawman and an attack on character rather than what actually happened.
I missed the specific posts in question (I never followed Ashiel FAQ thread).
The, respectfully, don't comment. Go find them and come back. You can't have anything constructive to contribute to the situation at hand.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
LGBTIQ folk can absorb and internalize self-hateful and self-defeating rhetoric as easily as members any other marginalized group. If they want to unpack, dismantle, and work through that, more power to them. But being trans (or LGBIQ) doesn't give them a free pass to dump that toxic stuff on other trans folk, especially when they're not working through it and just parroting the hateful soundbites of people like M!lo Y!annopoulos and Bla!r Wh!te. That's not conducive to an inclusive community.Nowhere did this happen. This whole paragraph is a strawman and an attack on character rather than what actually happened.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with your summation of the content of those events.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the end I am not sure that the facts matter. Some are considered sacrosanct while others are pariahs.
That's the sort of Us Against Them attitude that can make the boards toxic.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the end I am not sure that the facts matter. Some are considered sacrosanct while others are pariahs.
Going to the table with the ad hominem presentation of the idea that the folks who own the table are playing favorites, or otherwise acting with malice, isn't the most constructive way to start.