Core Pharasma?


Pathfinder Society

Scarab Sages

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Do clerics of pharasma in the Core Campaign have access to the Death Domain as printed, or do they get the modified Death domain as per the blog?

Paizo Blog

Definitely an outside source, but seems worth asking/mentioning.

4/5 5/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Do clerics of pharasma in the Core Campaign have access to the Death Domain as printed, or do they get the modified Death domain as per the blog?

Since that blog post is not listed as one of the Core Campaign's resources, I'd say clerics of Pharasma are limited to the Death Domain as printed in the CRB.

5/5 5/55/55/5

GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Do clerics of pharasma in the Core Campaign have access to the Death Domain as printed, or do they get the modified Death domain as per the blog?
Since that blog post is not listed as one of the Core Campaign's resources, I'd say clerics of Pharasma are limited to the Death Domain as printed in the CRB.

They can't cast spells from the death domain as printed in the CRB. The blog post is clearly along the lines of a campaign clarification which works even in core.

4/5 5/5

The referenced blog post wrote:
For those of you who want a more Pharasma-friendly version of the Death domain...

That wording makes it sound like an option rather than a clarification. Clerics of Pharasma existed in the game prior to that blog post; I'd assume at least of few of them took the death domain. Clerics of Pharasma in the Core Campaign would operate as those clerics of old did.

So, to me, it isn't clear at all that the blog post is a campaign clarification.

4/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If you look at the comments, it was meant to be for PFS but never really made it into any document. As a note, I have seen Clerics of Pharasma in Classic PFS utilizing this blog post.

As for the legality in Core, if it is indeed legal in PFS at all, I would think it would be applicable to Core Campaign. There are other assumed resources for rules still used in Core campaign. For example, the FAQ.

Excluding Core Campaign out of forum clarifications and blog post rulings would be madness. Old rulings like how darkness and light interact would be thrown into complete chaos as it would work differently in Classic PFS than in Core Campaign.

5/5

Additional resources lists this blog (and several others) as legal for PFS...

The question is, is it a clarification to Core, or is it an option and this not Core?

4/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Additional resources lists this blog (and several others) as legal for PFS...

Crap. Missed that section, lol.

4/5 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
They can't cast spells from the death domain as printed in the CRB.
GM Lamplighter wrote:
The question is, is it a clarification to Core, or is it an option and this not Core?

I may be mistaken or overlooking a past forum post that addresses this, but I don't believe clerics of Pharasma in the Core Campaign are prohibited from casting any spells from the original death domain as published in the CRB (at least, I see no restrictions in the CRB). If that is true (and please point me to the pertinent information if it isn't), clerics of Pharasma have no need of an alternate death domain in the Core Campaign and, therefore, that blog post would not apply.

5/5 5/55/55/5

GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
They can't cast spells from the death domain as printed in the CRB.
GM Lamplighter wrote:
The question is, is it a clarification to Core, or is it an option and this not Core?
I may be mistaken or overlooking a past forum post that addresses this, but I don't believe clerics of Pharasma in the Core Campaign are prohibited from casting any spells from the original death domain as published in the CRB (at least, I see no restrictions in the CRB). If that is true (and please point me to the pertinent information if it isn't), clerics of Pharasma have no need of an alternate death domain in the Core Campaign and, therefore, that blog post would not apply.

Pharasma is a core deity and her religious restrictions come with her being her, not from an additional resource.

Domain Spells: 1st—cause fear, 2nd—death knell, 3rd—animate dead, 4th—death ward, 5th—slay living, 6th—create undead, 7th—destruction, 8th—create greater undead, 9th—wail of the banshee.

A pharasmin priest cannot cast animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead without becoming an ex priest of pharasma. PFS fixed this with the pharasma friendly domain, it should work the same as the clarifications document

4/5 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pharasma is a core deity and her religious restrictions come with her being her, not from an additional resource.

Please humor me here. If a player in the Core Campaign possesses only those limited resources listed in the current Guide, how would said player know that a cleric of Pharasma is prohibited from casting animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead and how would said player know that casting any of those spells would result in a fall from Pharasma's grace?

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Couldn't you just pick a different domain?

5/5 5/55/55/5

GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pharasma is a core deity and her religious restrictions come with her being her, not from an additional resource.

Please humor me here. If a player in the Core Campaign possesses only those limited resources listed in the current Guide, how would said player know that a cleric of Pharasma is prohibited from casting animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead and how would said player know that casting any of those spells would result in a fall from Pharasma's grace?

They might not, which is why they need the pharasma friendly death domain. They took the death domain at level 1 get to level 5 and can't use their class feature.


GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Pharasma is a core deity and her religious restrictions come with her being her, not from an additional resource.

Please humor me here. If a player in the Core Campaign possesses only those limited resources listed in the current Guide, how would said player know that a cleric of Pharasma is prohibited from casting animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead and how would said player know that casting any of those spells would result in a fall from Pharasma's grace?

The real question is why is this hypothetical player playing a Cleric of Pharsma since you seem to be implying that he wouldn't know the most prominent feature of said deity?

Humoring you leads to a nonsensical scenario.

4/5 5/5

Sundakan wrote:
The real question is why is this hypothetical player playing a Cleric of Pharsma since you seem to be implying that he wouldn't know the most prominent feature of said deity?

A new player picks up the CRB. Decides to play a cleric. Looks at the list of deities in the CRB and likes the look of Pharasma. Chooses the death domain. Decides to try organized play with this cleric of Pharasma and, owning just the CRB, joins the Core Campaign.

I'm not doubting your and BNW's belief that the spell restriction on Pharasman clerics applies in the Core Campaign. I'm just trying to understand how a player in the Core Campaign might learn of this restriction and what reference you're citing as evidence that this restriction applies in the Core Campaign.

Simply telling me it exists won't help me explain the restriction to a player at my Core Campaign table when I tell him his build choice is invalid and can't point him to the proof.

5/5 5/55/55/5

I hadn't realized just how little information there is on the core deities in the book. I suppose it's on the DM to hand them a pamphlet at some point when they join the priesthood.

And this is why inner sea gods is one of the few books i have in dead tree: i can hand it to someone picking a religion.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

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GM Eazy-Earl wrote:

I'm just trying to understand how a player in the Core Campaign might learn of this restriction and what reference you're citing as evidence that this restriction applies in the Core Campaign.

An experienced player tells him.

Lets be honest, a significant chunk of PFS rules exist in forum posts, private questions, blogs, consensus, players experience, etc. While this is less true in Core it is still true.

It is essentially impossible for a new player to find out all the rules on their own.

Heck, I don't think ANYBODY actually knows ALL the PFS rules


GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
The real question is why is this hypothetical player playing a Cleric of Pharsma since you seem to be implying that he wouldn't know the most prominent feature of said deity?

A new player picks up the CRB. Decides to play a cleric. Looks at the list of deities in the CRB and likes the look of Pharasma. Chooses the death domain. Decides to try organized play with this cleric of Pharasma and, owning just the CRB, joins the Core Campaign.

I'm not doubting your and BNW's belief that the spell restriction on Pharasman clerics applies in the Core Campaign. I'm just trying to understand how a player in the Core Campaign might learn of this restriction and what reference you're citing as evidence that this restriction applies in the Core Campaign.

Simply telling me it exists won't help me explain the restriction to a player at my Core Campaign table when I tell him his build choice is invalid and can't point him to the proof.

Link him to the wiki write-up on the deity.

But again, why and how is he playing a deity without knowing anything about said deity?

The "how" is the more pressing part. What does a character who is devoted to a god look like when the player knows nothing about their god except a name and alignment?

This confuses me to no end. Do people actually do that in PFS? Is it as stupid as it sounds?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

(flagged for the CORE Forum, so that going forward we can have all of these questions in one location)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Sundakan wrote:
GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
The real question is why is this hypothetical player playing a Cleric of Pharsma since you seem to be implying that he wouldn't know the most prominent feature of said deity?

A new player picks up the CRB. Decides to play a cleric. Looks at the list of deities in the CRB and likes the look of Pharasma. Chooses the death domain. Decides to try organized play with this cleric of Pharasma and, owning just the CRB, joins the Core Campaign.

I'm not doubting your and BNW's belief that the spell restriction on Pharasman clerics applies in the Core Campaign. I'm just trying to understand how a player in the Core Campaign might learn of this restriction and what reference you're citing as evidence that this restriction applies in the Core Campaign.

Simply telling me it exists won't help me explain the restriction to a player at my Core Campaign table when I tell him his build choice is invalid and can't point him to the proof.

Link him to the wiki write-up on the deity.

But again, why and how is he playing a deity without knowing anything about said deity?

The "how" is the more pressing part. What does a character who is devoted to a god look like when the player knows nothing about their god except a name and alignment?

This confuses me to no end. Do people actually do that in PFS? Is it as stupid as it sounds?

You seem to be confused. The core campaign does not include any info on any deities other than what's in the CRB. So by your opinion, nobody could play a cleric in Core.

We have to assume players only have the CRB, and can only make rulings based on that.


Yes, I am confused. Very, very confused by how this campaign even FUNCTIONS if what you're suggesting is true.

Assuming you're correct (since I don't play PFS, this thread just caught my attention on the sidebar), and Core campaign doesn't include ANY Golarion setting details, including the basic deity write-ups, cities, etc., how do you play a character that worships a deity?

What can you do as a worshiper who knows nothing about their god?

Do you just let people make up whatever they want for Core? Since there's no way to EVER make a judgment call on whether someone has gone against their deity's tenets if none of the deity write-ups are accepted resources (or any other setting details?) and you have to assume a player doesn't even know the vaguest thing about their deity, what does that look like in play?

Does their character just say "I worship Sarenrae" and has no clue that she's a sun goddess who loves redemption and goes around as a generic Cleric with a random deity's name attached?

Are all characters assumed to be from some nebulous setting? Because I'm pretty sure none of the nations of Golarion are mentioned in the CRB. Are Andoran characters not a thing, for example?

Scarab Sages

Sundakan wrote:

I'm not talking about rulings, I'm talking about how does that work?

Assuming you're correct (since I don't play PFS, this thread just caught my attention on the sidebar), and Core campaign doesn't include ANY Golarion setting details, including the basic deity write-ups, cities, etc., how do you play a character that worships a deity?

What can you do as a worshiper who knows nothing about their god?

Do you just let people make up whatever they want for Core? Since there's no way to EVER make a judgment call on whether someone has gone against their deity's tenets if none of the deity write-ups are accepted resources (or any other setting details?) and you have to assume a player doesn't even know the vaguest thing about their deity, what does that look like in play?

Does their character just say "I worship Sarenrae" and has no clue that she's a sun goddess who loves redemption and goes around as a generic Cleric with a random deity's name attached?

Yes, I am confused. Very, very confused by how this campaign even FUNCTIONS if what you're suggesting is true.

I agree, Core is super iffy for deific worship. That's why, in the CRB, characters are allowed to pick an ideal to worship, rather than a specific deity. Not PFS legal, but it makes much more sense if only using the CRB for background information on the deities.

4/5 5/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I agree, Core is super iffy for deific worship.

Without a linkable citation, expect variation; I'm marking this as an FAQ candidate and moving on.

4/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Sundakan wrote:

Yes, I am confused. Very, very confused by how this campaign even FUNCTIONS if what you're suggesting is true.

Assuming you're correct (since I don't play PFS, this thread just caught my attention on the sidebar), and Core campaign doesn't include ANY Golarion setting details, including the basic deity write-ups, cities, etc., how do you play a character that worships a deity?

What can you do as a worshiper who knows nothing about their god?

Do you just let people make up whatever they want for Core? Since there's no way to EVER make a judgment call on whether someone has gone against their deity's tenets if none of the deity write-ups are accepted resources (or any other setting details?) and you have to assume a player doesn't even know the vaguest thing about their deity, what does that look like in play?

Does their character just say "I worship Sarenrae" and has no clue that she's a sun goddess who loves redemption and goes around as a generic Cleric with a random deity's name attached?

Are all characters assumed to be from some nebulous setting? Because I'm pretty sure none of the nations of Golarion are mentioned in the CRB. Are Andoran characters not a thing, for example?

There are some things about Golarian in the Roleplaying Guild Guide. Appendix 1 has a list of the Golarian languages, and all of Appendix 3 is about the world of Golarian. That said, there is a lot that isn't covered there.

The CRB, pg. 43, has a list of the Golarian Deities, their portfolios, Domains, and Favored Weapons. That gives you the mechanics needed to create a cleric worshipping one of those deities. In order to get a better idea of what they are about, you would need to do research.

Although you would need a copy of Inner Sea Gods (as an example) in order to take mechanical advantage of any rules in there, there is nothing that prevents someone from looking up the information online in order to be able to properly roleplay a clergy of one of those gods. To use the terms used so often on these boards, you can take the fluff but not the crunch.

By the way, I've seen people with all the additional resources that also didn't bother to learn about the religion of their chosen deity. All they cared about was the rule mechanics.

5/5

Sundakan: it's not surprising that this doesn't make sense if you aren't playing PFS. Core has 2 major audiences.

First, to introduce new players to the game. New players generally play a pregenerated character, and the cleric one does include some basic info on the deity. For those new players who make their own character, the CRb does include names, domains, and areas of importance for the gods. People know Sarenrae is a sun goddess from the CRB. If they are interested, a quick google search turns up the Pathfinder wiki (pathfinderwiki.com) which provides a huge amount of setting detail for players as well. But a player who chooses a Pharasmin cleric is fully "legal" if they use the death domain as printed in the CRB.

The second use of Core is so people who have already played a given scenario can replay it under different circumstances. By definition, these folks are more experienced and probably have more resources, so they may choose the option like the one in the blog. Pharasma hates undead, so why would she grant domain spells that create them? If that bothers the player, the blog post offers an alternative.

So, Core isn't really a stand-alone campaign - it's another mode with a bunch of options and detailed removed. That doesn't really answer your question, I know... Most of the explanatory duties ar left to the GM or event coordinator to handle one-on-one. In practice, though, this doesn't confuse people in real life as much as it does on the forums, again because the Gm is there.


GM Lamplighter wrote:

Sundakan: it's not surprising that this doesn't make sense if you aren't playing PFS. Core has 2 major audiences.

First, to introduce new players to the game. New players generally play a pregenerated character, and the cleric one does include some basic info on the deity. For those new players who make their own character, the CRb does include names, domains, and areas of importance for the gods. People know Sarenrae is a sun goddess from the CRB. If they are interested, a quick google search turns up the Pathfinder wiki (pathfinderwiki.com) which provides a huge amount of setting detail for players as well. But a player who chooses a Pharasmin cleric is fully "legal" if they use the death domain as printed in the CRB.

The second use of Core is so people who have already played a given scenario can replay it under different circumstances. By definition, these folks are more experienced and probably have more resources, so they may choose the option like the one in the blog. Pharasma hates undead, so why would she grant domain spells that create them? If that bothers the player, the blog post offers an alternative.

So, Core isn't really a stand-alone campaign - it's another mode with a bunch of options and detailed removed. That doesn't really answer your question, I know... Most of the explanatory duties are left to the GM or event coordinator to handle one-on-one. In practice, though, this doesn't confuse people in real life as much as it does on the forums, again because the Gm is there.

See this makes sense to me. That's how I figured, logically, it WOULD work.

The confusion came in when I suggested "Link them to the wiki" and someone else said "Inform them yourself, or let the GM do it" and somebody else said "But that's now how it works, that info needs to be in an Additional Resource, and it's not", and nobody contradicted them.


Sundakan wrote:

But again, why and how is he playing a ("cleric of a "?) deity without knowing anything about said deity?

The why is either they want to play a generic cleric and are required to pick one because PFS says they have to and/or because there simply isn't any further information about the deities in the CRB that tells them anything useful beyond what they are gods of and what domains they have. The 3.0 CRB actually had more information about the deities listed than simply "these are what they are deities of and what their domains are."

Quote:
The "how" is the more pressing part. What does a character who is devoted to a god look like when the player knows nothing about their god except a name and alignment?

The character looks like whatever the player thinks the character should look like even if it's not the same as what another player or even the DM thinks the character should look like.

Quote:
Do people actually do that in PFS?

Let's say I want to play a cleric because, you know, cleric's can heal people. Let's also say I want to play a cleric of death. If I want to play a cleric in PFS I cannot simply pick the death domain, I have to pick a deity first, then domains or pick a domain I really want and pick a deity based on that. So, my healing death cleric would fit with Pharasma because they have those two domains (death and healing). Up to this point nothing about Pharasma beyond the domains has even mattered. Even in playing the healing death cleric nothing about her worship of Pharasma might ever come up because it has little to no impact on the PFS scenario system where what happens between scenarios is of little consequence.

I mean, I really just want to play a generic cleric with the death and healing domains, but PFS said I had to pick a deity. Now you have a generic healing death cleric of Pharasma who wanders around the countryside working for the Pathfinder Society who probably doesn't know anything about Pharasma other than what the CRB tells me which is next to nothing and probably won't matter until level 5 (12 scenarios in) when I can try to cast Animate Dead.

=========

If the fluff for the deities in the CRB is that important it should be in the CRB. Having the fluff for the deities in the CRB wouldn't be that much of a stretch considering WotC included the fluff for the deities in the 3.0 CRB in the 3.0 CRB.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Sundakan wrote:
What can you do as a worshiper who knows nothing about their god?

You're making a huge assumption that people actually realize there may be roleplay requirements to a deity.

For example, I look at Urgathoa and see that she's NE, has a x4 favored weapon, and grants access to Potion Glutton. You expect a new person to continue passed those points and continue on to see what it says about how they should play their character? (and this is disregarding core vs not)

Scarab Sages

claudekennilol wrote:


For example, I look at Urgathoa and see that she's NE, has a x4 favored weapon, and grants access to Potion Glutton. You expect a new person to continue passed those points and continue on to see what it says about how they should play their character? (and this is disregarding core vs not)

Speaking of Urgathoa, did you notice that she has access to the Divine Subdomain? 2nd level spell is Bless Water. 5th level Cleanse. 7th level Ressurection.

I keep wondering if we'll get an Urgathoa approiate divine domain blog entry...A cleric of Urgathoa can't even cast Bless water because it has the Good descriptor and she's Neutral Evil. The other spells are all really questionable on her disease and undeath focused areas of concern. Fortunately, not a Core issue, but still.


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It's always more enjoyable to defile that which was clean.


Sundakan wrote:

Yes, I am confused. Very, very confused by how this campaign even FUNCTIONS if what you're suggesting is true.

The base assumption that the Paizo folks seem to be making is that people come to the Core campaign as a second campaign, not their first. That they come to Core armed with the campaign setting knowledge from the primary camapaign. It doesn't have a second campaign guide book written just for CORE. They also assume that most people who are Judging CORE also judge the primary campaign and have spent more effort than the average player in learning the campaign setting.

Depending on how CORE is supposed to be run, I see it going either of the following ways. PFS players either pick the campaign friendly domain, or settle for the fact that Pharasma DOES have domains other than Death, and pick accordingly.

Scarab Sages

Part of the issue is that Clerics, as per the CRB, don't have to pick a deity at all. They can just choose their domains and dedicate themselves to an ideal, rather than a domain.

PFS is the one that is imposing the deity restriction on the character.

And then PFS Core is imposing a further deity restriction, by further limiting the clerics to only information found in the CRB.

The cleric in CRB and not in PFS, is fine. There's no need to change anything there. The one in PFS is limited, but still functions. The one in PFS Core doesn't work, because the deity restriction doesn't work while also banning the materials that better define how deities in the PFS setting work.

If PFS Core wants to do this, we really need a note in the PFS guide that defines the deities.

Personally, though does defeat much the point of core, I think Paizo should make a Core Campaign Book, which includes the legal character traits, explains the legal deities, and adds prestige point options for Core characters. And I think they should sell this book.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

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I still think people are overreacting.

Sure, in theory there is a problem.

However, in practice, there is likely somebody at the Core table who knows about Pharasma and tells the player what she is about. The player then decides to go along with it or switch dieties.

If the player has chosen Pharasma and, sometime down the line, finds out that his domain choice is less than ideal then he gets to switch dieties and/or domains. He made an honest mistake due to a lack of information, when that mistake is revealed he gets to fix it as painlessly as possible.

Or maybe it really is a Core group where everybody is Core and nobody knows nothing about nothing. In which case, he happily plays his illegal cleric of Pharasma because nobody realizes there is an issue.

In any of the 3 cases above, its just no biggy

Scarab Sages

Sorry to not update this one too. I did find an answer. PFS has a FAQ that lists the legal deity choices for PFS. The Blog is included there. The FAQ does not note any restrictions for deity selection in Core, so as written, the entire list (including the blog) is considered part of the FAQ and, therefore, part of Core. Regarding legal materials, the list is part of the FAQ.

That is, unless you intend to dispute the validity of using the PFS FAQ in Core. I'm not going to touch that one.

5/5

The FAQ also discusses eidolons; is it your contention that summoners are also allowed in Core because they're mentioned in the PFS FAQ?

Just being mentioned in the PFS FAQ doesn't mean it's legal in Core - it *also* has to be from a resource that is listed as legal for Core.

The FAQ doesn't need to "note any deity restrictions for Core", since Core already does that: Core rulebook (plus some specific bits) only. Any FAQs that apply to those items of course should be applied in Core - that includes the blog post about Pharasma. So, no deities from resources outside the Core rulebook are legal in a PFS Core Campaign character. I'm not sure why this is even in dispute (in multiple threads).

Scarab Sages

GM Lamplighter wrote:

The FAQ also discusses eidolons; is it your contention that summoners are also allowed in Core because they're mentioned in the PFS FAQ?

Just being mentioned in the PFS FAQ doesn't mean it's legal in Core - it *also* has to be from a resource that is listed as legal for Core.

The FAQ doesn't need to "note any deity restrictions for Core", since Core already does that: Core rulebook (plus some specific bits) only. Any FAQs that apply to those items of course should be applied in Core - that includes the blog post about Pharasma. So, no deities from resources outside the Core rulebook are legal in a PFS Core Campaign character. I'm not sure why this is even in dispute (in multiple threads).

The multiple threads are each directed at different aspects of the example's applications to the game. Yeah, it does get blurry.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Like I said, I'm not going to dispute the legality of using the FAQ for PFS in core. I don't need to prove anything to you on this point, especially in this thread. This thread is in regard to Core Pharasma, not using other deities in core. The PFS FAQ addressing the blog makes the blog legal in Core, which is the topic of this thread.

If you want to dispute the legality of using the PFS FAQ in Core, start a new thread.

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