Dragon Armor makes no sense...


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I'd put The Punisher at chaotic neutral. Because while he's got good in mind, his methods (Torture, killing people without proof they're actually the bad guy(He's tried to kill Spiderman because of that.)) are too extreme and heartless to actually be considered good.

So, Chaotic Neutral, with good intentions. I've played characters like that before.


So, my view on dragonhide is fairly simple in most ways. It's not terribly common, but...by the same token, since it isn't incredible armor, it isn't highly valued like mithral or adamantine, either. Plus, after re-reading the entry on it again, it's any type of dragon that can produce it, which means drake-farms are possibly a thing. *shudders at the thought* And I thought the people who have ranch-farmed bears and sell the meat were scary...

Anyway! I don't think it's necessarily an evil action to wear armor of dragonhide. What if a great wyrm gold dragon bequeathed his body to a kingdom for their knights when on his deathbed? But can it be? Yes.

My biggest annoyance with dragonhide, though, is that I can't make bloody scale mail out of it! Why can't I take the high-quality scales and weave them into a proper mesh?


Well, if you're playing a home game, your DM would probably let you make
scale mail.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:

I would suggest a major reason for Dragon Armour materials been cheap is that Dragon Armour really isn't that good.

And also probably removes the "Random target selection" when fighting other Dragons and replaces it with "Kill creature wearing Dragon Skin".

if how useful things were, were the primary method of determining price, water wouldn't be so cheap.

It's about half of it.

Supply AND Demand.

If the supply is high enough then even something with a high demand won't be valuable.

In the case of dragonhide - there are a couple of things that might keep its price "low".

1. It's not that low. Most people can't afford full plate at all, so paying double the cost isn't a good option when it gives no benefit besides to druids. You have to spend A LOT to benefit from the cheaper resistance enchantment.

2. Wearing dragonhide might not be good to your health. Sure - your fellow adventurers and all of the ladies might think that you're pretty awesome for wearing the hide of a magical flying monster of legend, but a dragon probably won't feel the same way. Wearing dragonhide armor is like flying a giant banner with a middle finger raised to all of the dragons of the world, especially of that color.

and the supply of water in many regions is very low, yet usually free unless someone's running an extortion market.

also realize that mithral and adamantine are basically like as rare as diamonds and usually in lore has the prestige of gems.


Tyinyk wrote:
Well, if you're playing a home game, your DM would probably let you make scale mail.

Yes, well, I am the GM, so I'd let my players do it. It's mostly annoying because I write up a new magic item every day in a document (8 months come the 17th, whee!) and a couple months back I wanted to a make a 'dragon scale' scale mail armor, and was annoyed by the rules. Sure, I could overrule them, but it rather defeated the purpose of making items that follow the rules for the most part.

Scarab Sages

Quevven wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Each their own opinion, but regarding the CRB in pathfinder they describe the Good as:

"Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient life. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others."

I don't think that your allowed to pick and choose which life deserves respect as a good character. Yeah, innocent life deserves protection and sentient life you are concerned about their dignity too, but you respect life in general. And when someone you respect loses their life, it is sad.

Considering what Sarenrae's doctrine is to offer redemption, but if the foe/bad guy proves to be irredeemable, squash them flat and think no more on it...

Also, since I am always curious about such things, what alignment would you assign to someone like the Punisher? (Since I just discovered the vigilante class.)

Punisher is probably Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic evil, depending on how his definition of "innocent" holds up. He's definitely not even trying to be a good guy. He does have a code, and although he punishes law breakers, he doesn't seem overly concerned with following the law himself. Sometimes it does seem like he enjoys killing or causing pain. He also doesn't work with others, doesn't work within societies rules, and fits the definition of a terrorist to a T.

"Proves to be irredeemable?" How many tries before he's determined irredeemable? The Neutral Good follower of Sarenae is probably trying diplomacy, then force, but is still probably not trying to kill them at all. Irredeemable evil is things like creatures with an evil subtype, undead, and enemies that are simply unable to change their ways. Just because you fail at redeeming people, doesn't mean that they are irredeemable. Even if you never figure out how to redeem them, there are lots of followers of Sarenae, perhaps another with succeed where you have failed.


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"implies" does not mandate.
You can still be good while not holding to some arbitrary respect for life, you can fall within quite a wide spectrum and still be good

alignment wrote:
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.

Don't fall into the trap of being too narrow in your assessment of a particular alignment. Canonically their are a number of LG gods who are much less forgiving than Sarenrae. Torags doctrine can be quite draconian.


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dragonhunterq wrote:

"implies" does not mandate.

You can still be good while not holding to some arbitrary respect for life, you can fall within quite a wide spectrum and still be good
alignment wrote:
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
Don't fall into the trap of being too narrow in your assessment of a particular alignment. Canonically their are a number of LG gods who are much less forgiving than Sarenrae. Torags doctrine can be quite draconian.

And that's without throwing out the empyreal lord Ragathiel. The General of Vengeance.


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If the dragon has Witch levels, it can get Skinsend (2nd) and Regenerate (7th).

1) Cast Skinsend
2) Have skin cast Regenerate on body.
3) 2d10 rounds later, the body has regrown its skin, and the separated skin from the spell dies, undamaged.
4) Repeat for as many 7th level slots it has.
5) Package skin suits for sale by mail order.
6) Profit

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So this isn't Pathfinder-specific, but the D&D 3.5 Draconomicon had a powerful magical robe made from the scales of a silver dragon--and it specifically mentioned that the scales were shed, rather than harvested from a slain creature. For my worlds I usually have dragons shed scales, and the more sociable/enterprising ones cut deals with merchants to grow their hoards safely. I also allow leather armors to be made from drakes, wyverns, etc. This also reduces the "wow factor" of wearing dragonhide armor.

I've never made an issue of it in any of my games (player or DM) but I wouldn't consider wearing dragonhide evil. Certainly many dragons might look askance at your character walking up wearing the cured hide of one of its kind, even of a different color, but I wouldn't call it evil. But following that line of thinking, would an intelligent animal take umbrage at the wearing of leather? Is it acceptable to kill a bear and wear its fur but evil if the bear was Awakened? What about eating them? Can a character eat meat from a dragon or Awakened deer with no moral qualms? Are earth elementals horrified by quarries or worked metal? What if it went the OTHER way, and an Awakened bear walked around wearing a cloak made from the skins of humans it killed, is that evil? After a while it gets silly. RPG ethics are a tangled mess.

As for OP's original issue: do whatever makes sense to you, Rule Zero and all. I do find selective complaints about realism to be weird. Pathfinder makes all kinds of non-realistic rules in order to streamline issues that would otherwise bog down the game. Other decisions are made for reasons of internal balance. Demands for realism would require modeling massive economies, would require an injury system--it would fundamentally alter the tone & style of the game.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

all this talk of sheding and me thinkign about how hard dragon scales must be to be used as full plate...

Dragon's have g~& d%!n exoskeletons...

we're freaks, FREAKS.


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CrusaderWolf wrote:

So this isn't Pathfinder-specific, but the D&D 3.5 Draconomicon had a powerful magical robe made from the scales of a silver dragon--and it specifically mentioned that the scales were shed, rather than harvested from a slain creature. For my worlds I usually have dragons shed scales, and the more sociable/enterprising ones cut deals with merchants to grow their hoards safely. I also allow leather armors to be made from drakes, wyverns, etc. This also reduces the "wow factor" of wearing dragonhide armor.

I've never made an issue of it in any of my games (player or DM) but I wouldn't consider wearing dragonhide evil. Certainly many dragons might look askance at your character walking up wearing the cured hide of one of its kind, even of a different color, but I wouldn't call it evil. But following that line of thinking, would an intelligent animal take umbrage at the wearing of leather? Is it acceptable to kill a bear and wear its fur but evil if the bear was Awakened? What about eating them? Can a character eat meat from a dragon or Awakened deer with no moral qualms? Are earth elementals horrified by quarries or worked metal? What if it went the OTHER way, and an Awakened bear walked around wearing a cloak made from the skins of humans it killed, is that evil? After a while it gets silly. RPG ethics are a tangled mess.

As for OP's original issue: do whatever makes sense to you, Rule Zero and all. I do find selective complaints about realism to be weird. Pathfinder makes all kinds of non-realistic rules in order to streamline issues that would otherwise bog down the game. Other decisions are made for reasons of internal balance. Demands for realism would require modeling massive economies, would require an injury system--it would fundamentally alter the tone & style of the game.

My general rule is-

Is it sentient?
Did you know that?

If the answer to both is yes, don't wear it's skin. So it's not bad to wear bear skin in the presence of an awakened bear, but it IS bad to wear the skin of an awakened bear.

Sovereign Court

Tyinyk wrote:
If the answer to both is yes, don't wear it's skin. So it's not bad to wear bear skin in the presence of an awakened bear, but it IS bad to wear the skin of an awakened bear.

What if it was an evil awakened bear and you had to kill it in self-defense and/or to protect innocents. After it's dead it's not any different from a dead normal bear.


That is a good point. Still a bit macabre to wear the skin of something that was sentient, but I could see how you do that and still be good. Probably more of a chaotic thing to do than lawful, but hey.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why wouldn't the same logic apply to wearing the skin of that evil human? I think most people would readily assess that as evil regardless of how awful that particular person might have been. It seems to me that there's a weird disconnect regarding non-humanoids versus humanoids, even when they're sentient.

I agree with Tyinyk on this one, sentience is the salient point.


CrusaderWolf wrote:

Why wouldn't the same logic apply to wearing the skin of that evil human? I think most people would readily assess that as evil regardless of how awful that particular person might have been. It seems to me that there's a weird disconnect regarding non-humanoids versus humanoids, even when they're sentient.

I agree with Tyinyk on this one, sentience is the salient point.

Only if everyone knows it was sentient. If I kill an awakened bear who is terrorizing the nearby village but know one knew he was sentient no one would think I am evil. Also what do we use as the measure of sentience?

Scarab Sages

Cevah wrote:

If the dragon has Witch levels, it can get Skinsend (2nd) and Regenerate (7th).

1) Cast Skinsend
2) Have skin cast Regenerate on body.
3) 2d10 rounds later, the body has regrown its skin, and the separated skin from the spell dies, undamaged.
4) Repeat for as many 7th level slots it has.
5) Package skin suits for sale by mail order.
6) Profit

/cevah

-OR-

The Witch Dragon could just sell their spell casting services and make much more money with so much less effort. If the goal is just to make money, selling spellcasting services is really profitable, especially for higher level casters.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:


The Witch Dragon could just sell their spell casting services and make much more money with so much less effort. If the goal is just to make money, selling spellcasting services is really profitable, especially for higher level casters.

If you sell a product you only need to deal with one middle man once a month or so. If that.

If you sell spellcasting services you need to deal with a different customer every day. That opens up security risks and requires you to be in a human population center to access your customers.


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I still have fond memories of the dwarf who wore red dragon armor, with white dragon trim, and black dragon boots.

Eventually, a trio of ancients all three breeds took him down.


CrusaderWolf wrote:

Why wouldn't the same logic apply to wearing the skin of that evil human? I think most people would readily assess that as evil regardless of how awful that particular person might have been. It seems to me that there's a weird disconnect regarding non-humanoids versus humanoids, even when they're sentient.

I agree with Tyinyk on this one, sentience is the salient point.

In the minds of most, sentience matters beans when you're considered a monster. By definition that makes you a non-person.

Scarab Sages

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I still have fond memories of the dwarf who wore red dragon armor, with white dragon trim, and black dragon boots.

Eventually, a trio of ancients all three breeds took him down.

Worship Dahak, any chance?

Silver Crusade

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I still have fond memories of the dwarf who wore red dragon armor, with white dragon trim, and black dragon boots.

Eventually, a trio of ancients all three breeds took him down.

Worship Dahak, any chance?

I had a Katapeshin who skinned pretty much everything.

Troll overcoat (never frayed!)
Turned a young black dragon into boots and gloves.
Turned a bigger white dragon into coats.
Was sad when the werewolves kept turning back into humans when thy died since he wasn't interested in wearing human.


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We had someone skin a Krenshar. The hood popped up on it's own when it rained.


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CrusaderWolf wrote:
Is it acceptable to kill a bear and wear its fur but evil if the bear was Awakened? What about eating them? Can a character eat meat from a dragon or Awakened deer with no moral qualms?

If it tries to eat me, I will gladly eat it.

/cevah


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I still have fond memories of the dwarf who wore red dragon armor, with white dragon trim, and black dragon boots.

Eventually, a trio of ancients all three breeds took him down.

Worship Dahak, any chance?

Not unless that's a Greyhawk diety. Old school home gaime.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I still have fond memories of the dwarf who wore red dragon armor, with white dragon trim, and black dragon boots.

Eventually, a trio of ancients all three breeds took him down.

Worship Dahak, any chance?
Not unless that's a Greyhawk diety. Old school home gaime.

Dahak is the spawn of Tiamat, and apparently Golarion's stand-in for her. Because Golarion is far from her sight.

And all dragons fear her so much they never deign to mention her name...


Rysky wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I still have fond memories of the dwarf who wore red dragon armor, with white dragon trim, and black dragon boots.

Eventually, a trio of ancients all three breeds took him down.

Worship Dahak, any chance?

I had a Katapeshin who skinned pretty much everything.

Troll overcoat (never frayed!)
Turned a young black dragon into boots and gloves.
Turned a bigger white dragon into coats.
Was sad when the werewolves kept turning back into humans when thy died since he wasn't interested in wearing human.

Now the things to make out of humans are books and belts... *evil grin* (also the famous wallet joke)

It's So Soft!

A "post-lupine" skin would be great to make some sort of animated lycanthropic biting book out of...


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Tyinyk wrote:
If the answer to both is yes, don't wear it's skin. So it's not bad to wear bear skin in the presence of an awakened bear, but it IS bad to wear the skin of an awakened bear.
What if it was an evil awakened bear and you had to kill it in self-defense and/or to protect innocents. After it's dead it's not any different from a dead normal bear.

Would you use the same justification for wearing leather made from a dead human.

But he was evil, and already dead ...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Got it. All Good creatures must go naked. Only Evil creatures wear skins of dead creatures, and only Neutral characters wear fur.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Got it. All Good creatures must go naked. Only Evil creatures wear skins of dead creatures, and only Neutral characters wear fur.

No, only the wearing of a sentient creatures skin is questionable.

Even then certain societies may differ - dragon scale being an exception in many societies.

Liberty's Edge

Cannibals in the NPC Codex are neutral.

I had a friend who played a leather worker in PFS that made goblin skin backpacks. At Paizocon four employees wrote and signed on his cert that skinning dead humanoids is not an evil act.

This doesn't mean that wearing Elvin boots was always socially acceptable.

Scarab Sages

Samish Lakefinder wrote:

Cannibals in the NPC Codex are neutral.

I had a friend who played a leather worker in PFS that made goblin skin backpacks. At Paizocon four employees wrote and signed on his cert that skinning dead humanoids is not an evil act.

This doesn't mean that wearing Elvin boots was always socially acceptable.

It's a matter of methods. Cannibalism as NEED is neutral, but there are cruel ways to do it which are different from the more "humane" methods. Skinning is the same. Heck, even looting the dead isn't socially acceptable in modern society, but would be a neutral action in alignment terms.

Scarab Sages

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Got it. All Good creatures must go naked. Only Evil creatures wear skins of dead creatures, and only Neutral characters wear fur.

It's a matter of methods and reasons. Is your character wearing the skins of a human because it's cold out? Are they wearing it for protection? Or are they wearing it because it breeds hatred or fear in humans who see it?

When the skinning was done, was it done on a living creature, like while they were alive? Was it a matter of not letting the body go to waste? Is the wearing of their skin a religious offering of some sort (good or evil)?


Sounds like wearing Dragon Skin armor because it's protective is a fully neutral act, especially when Dragon's aren't sentient. (In those settings where that's the case.)


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lowericon wrote:
DmRrostarr wrote:


You fought a Huge dragon which means you get a choice of the following:
large mwk hide + a shield
medium mwk banded mail + a shield
small mwk half-plate + a shield
tiny mwk full plate + a shield

Yes, I understand that's the rule, but the rule is DUMB.

If you understand the rule then why are you posting a question about the rule in the rules forum?

Scarab Sages

Tyinyk wrote:
Sounds like wearing Dragon Skin armor because it's protective is a fully neutral act, especially when Dragon's aren't sentient. (In those settings where that's the case.)

Pretty much. Might be different if Dragons were more common as allies in your setting.

A good character may still be opposed (for the same reasons they'd object to leather or even wooden armor), but that would depend on the character. Though I think a good character could create a justified reason to wear the skin of a fallen ally, in an effort to allow that ally the chance to accomplish some goal in life after they died - a little morbid, but I can see that as some sort of spiritual redemption attempt.

I will note that Kobolds would likely have rather strong reactions to dragon armor, as they very much worship dragons. They'd either hate it or love it, but they would definitely notice it and definitely have a strong opinion.

I will also note that clerics of death gods would likely have an opinion, as skin/leather armor is basically created by not burying/cremating/animating all of a corpse. I can see Pharasma or Urgathoa being offended at the idea of leather/dragon armor.


Quevven wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

"implies" does not mandate.

You can still be good while not holding to some arbitrary respect for life, you can fall within quite a wide spectrum and still be good
alignment wrote:
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
Don't fall into the trap of being too narrow in your assessment of a particular alignment. Canonically their are a number of LG gods who are much less forgiving than Sarenrae. Torags doctrine can be quite draconian.
And that's without throwing out the empyreal lord Ragathiel. The General of Vengeance.

Or the empyreal lord of executions.


Snowlilly wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Got it. All Good creatures must go naked. Only Evil creatures wear skins of dead creatures, and only Neutral characters wear fur.
No, only the wearing of a sentient creatures skin is questionable.

Dead skin is not sentient. The dead body of what used to be a dragon is an object, not a creature. And certainly not a sentient one.


Maybe dragon hide is actually, for the most part, very soft and perishable, and it only protects the dragon because he is constantly regenerating it. Only a few parts of the dragon's hide and bones have any durability.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Got it. All Good creatures must go naked. Only Evil creatures wear skins of dead creatures, and only Neutral characters wear fur.

but i mean, everyone can just wear stoneplate.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Can't risk it, could be the skin of an earth elemental.


Just find an angel/dragon/earth elemental/whatever that is able to cast skin-send. Then heal or regenerate the creature. Its skin that came off in one nice whole perfect piece falls dead, and is "suitable for any purpose that requires some of your flesh".

Nice easy non-harmful way to get sentient skin from a creature without having to kill it first. You could even make it a reward!


Murdock Mudeater wrote:


I will note that Kobolds would likely have rather strong reactions to dragon armor, as they very much worship dragons. They'd either hate it or love it, but they would definitely notice it and definitely have a strong opinion.

Kobolds worship EVIL dragons, they'd have no problems with someone wearing armor made from the metallic clans.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Kobold 1: "Hey, that armor looks kinda greenish!"

Kobold 2: "It's okay! See that coppery tinge to it!"

Scarab Sages

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:


I will note that Kobolds would likely have rather strong reactions to dragon armor, as they very much worship dragons. They'd either hate it or love it, but they would definitely notice it and definitely have a strong opinion.

Kobolds worship EVIL dragons, they'd have no problems with someone wearing armor made from the metallic clans.

hmm, but it could be a tarnished metalic dragon!

Scarab Sages

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:


I will note that Kobolds would likely have rather strong reactions to dragon armor, as they very much worship dragons. They'd either hate it or love it, but they would definitely notice it and definitely have a strong opinion.

Kobolds worship EVIL dragons, they'd have no problems with someone wearing armor made from the metallic clans.

I think there are rules for making Kobolds that worship good dragons. Kobolds of Golarion, I think. Anyway, I still think they'd have strong reactions. If they worship evil dragons, then they'd rejoice in seeing the skins of good dragons being displayed as armor. They might still try to kill you and take it, but you might be given the oppertunity for a social encounter before the planned ambush.


Benjamin Medrano wrote:
Tyinyk wrote:
Well, if you're playing a home game, your DM would probably let you make scale mail.
Yes, well, I am the GM, so I'd let my players do it. It's mostly annoying because I write up a new magic item every day in a document (8 months come the 17th, whee!) and a couple months back I wanted to a make a 'dragon scale' scale mail armor, and was annoyed by the rules. Sure, I could overrule them, but it rather defeated the purpose of making items that follow the rules for the most part.

Is there a place for you to post your best items?


Do we know for sure there's no kind of angel in pathfinder that sheds its skin like a snake? I think there are some kinds of angels in Revelations that are described as something like "Winged snakes with nine eyes" so there's conceivably an ethical way to acquire angelskin.

Just make sure you carry a certificate signed by the angel whose shed skin you're wearing that indicates no angels were harmed in the procurement of these snazzy duds.

Silver Crusade

Lilend's (though technically Azatas, not Angels) have the lower half of a snake so I assume they shed.

Then there's Coautls which are Good aligned Native Outsiders.

And there's also the Draconal Agathion.

But unless it was a gift or something there's really no reason for a good or even neutral character to wear Angelskin.


To fit in as you infiltrate the evil empire to learn their secret plan so that you can stop it!

On that note, is there demon-skin that you could use to mask good auras?

Is angelskin immediately obvious to the eye that its angelskin and not just cow/horse/human/giant leather?

Giant-hide armor specifically calls out giants getting a bonus to hit. Angelskin doesn't. Which makes me think that angelskin isn't obvious.

Quote:
Most good folk consider wearing the skins of intelligent creatures to be abhorrent. Giants gain a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls against the wearer, or +4 if the wearer's armor is made from the same kind of giant as the attacker.

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