Mary Sues / Gary Stus


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So, worst mary sue/gary stu character/npcs you ever played with. Go.

Mine are

1. A rather anime looking paladin with angel wings, described as. Shy, charming, inteligent and often go into a berserk state.

2. A victorian era lady who is described as 'Frail, pretty, polite and innocent' but has very high str stat, runs around with full plate armor, and has an extremely high sex drive. Is immune to fear but scared of mundane things

3. A...12 year old loli girl who is timid and afraid of loud noises. Is a barbarian with extremely high dps and hp


A friend once rolled 3 20s, an 18, a 16, and a 14 for stats. He played a dragon-born sorcerer in 3.5; it was the best tank, dps, face, and caster in the party.


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Well...That's not really his fault lol

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

In the last major campaign I played in, the DM had the three most powerful Solars in the setting (named Faith, Hope and Charity) descend from Heaven to personally resurrect my paladin with the AHNOLD voice after I stupidly tried to take on a fire giant prince in single combat! He also became essentially the Pope of his church (all the others in the chain of command had died fighting the robotic invasion from the Underdark), recieved a relic pair of six-shooters that he wore in his belt (didn't have a feat to wield them with), and he was fully intended to become an Obi-Wan style ghost in the sequel campaign, but it never got off the ground.

His companions included:

A kobold werewolf sorcerer with a penchant for taking the ears of his slain enemies as trophies, who became a GOD at the end of the campaign.

An elf bard who was actually from the technologically advanced past who'd gotten amnesia after surviving the apocalypse in cryogenic stasis Fallout-4-style.

A druid who somehow had a vast knowledge of economics who always negotiated the party's finances after he sicced a horde of bears at our problems.

And a halfling treehugger (custom class) who singlehandedly changed the course of the campaign AND THE GM'S ENTIRE SETTING by triggering a third Chernobyl meltdown that destroyed the invading hobgoblin horde, two major kingdoms, and managed to tick off BOTH nature gods and just about got the party and himself killed when he approached a roving herd of elephants with the intention to tame one to use as a mount, and we tried to save him from the stampede he triggered instead, finally sacrificing his life to spy on the Underdark robots.

Our campaign was WEIRD!


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godfang wrote:

So, worst mary sue/gary stu character/npcs you ever played with. Go.

Mine are

1. A rather anime looking paladin with angel wings, described as. Shy, charming, inteligent and often go into a berserk state.

2. A victorian era lady who is described as 'Frail, pretty, polite and innocent' but has very high str stat, runs around with full plate armor, and has an extremely high sex drive. Is immune to fear but scared of mundane things

3. A...12 year old loli girl who is timid and afraid of loud noises. Is a barbarian with extremely high dps and hp

You're going to have to explain how these qualify for Mar[t]y S[t]ues.

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kyrt-ryder wrote:
godfang wrote:

So, worst mary sue/gary stu character/npcs you ever played with. Go.

Mine are

1. A rather anime looking paladin with angel wings, described as. Shy, charming, inteligent and often go into a berserk state.

2. A victorian era lady who is described as 'Frail, pretty, polite and innocent' but has very high str stat, runs around with full plate armor, and has an extremely high sex drive. Is immune to fear but scared of mundane things

3. A...12 year old loli girl who is timid and afraid of loud noises. Is a barbarian with extremely high dps and hp

You're going to have to explain how these qualify for Mar[t]y S[t]ues.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.

The only commonality I can see between the three given examples is a clash between portrayal and reality, but that's not at all what the term in the thread title refers to.

Care to elaborate, OP?


Being shy, and yet at the same time charming, inteligent and at the same time ferocious.

Being a innocent and at the same time extremely sexual, frail and feminine but at the same time herculean in strength, being shy and awkaward but at the same time charming, it all seems pretty sue-ish to me. It's like you pretend like your character has flaws but at the same time completely negate them with contradictory traits.

It's kind of like how young adult protagonists are often described as 'not attractive' but everyone is attractd to them

But maybe I have a different understanding of what a mary sue is @_@


I don't actually think it's possible to have a Mary Sue in an RPG. You can have characters who are OP and Min Maxers... people who aren't so great at the RP... but the Players don't really have the power to create a Mary Sue. Players are still bound to the dice rolls.

You need DM Fiat to accomplish that. We had one DM NPC character who traveled with us for an adventurer who the entire plot revolved around and she had all the answers and solved the problems and killed the big bad despite being the 'helpless princess' trope. She was a new DM so I cut some slack there... but that wasn't a very fun game.

There have been a LOT of characters who show up where the Players talk about how great they are... then they fail their rolls. That's just kind of natural. Everyone wants to be awesome... but Mary Sues tend to go beyond that.

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Well I did have a Paladin eventually become the primordial of hope in a FR campaign who ended ushering a Golden Age for all as he united all the Good gods and used his armies of constructs piloted by the souls of good mortals who wanted keep fighting the good fight (One if which was named Hotshot and was inhabited by Keldorn Firecam, yes that paladin) to take over the evil planes, contain the Abyss and forced the evil gods into hiding...for all of 60 years.

He's now fighting the World Serpent for all eternity in the outer planes after one of the other party members turned vampire god of evil and the another party member turned druid-lich dragon god of greed unleashed it in retaliation.


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phantom1592 wrote:

I don't actually think it's possible to have a Mary Sue in an RPG. You can have characters who are OP and Min Maxers... people who aren't so great at the RP... but the Players don't really have the power to create a Mary Sue. Players are still bound to the dice rolls.

You need DM Fiat to accomplish that. We had one DM NPC character who traveled with us for an adventurer who the entire plot revolved around and she had all the answers and solved the problems and killed the big bad despite being the 'helpless princess' trope. She was a new DM so I cut some slack there... but that wasn't a very fun game.

There have been a LOT of characters who show up where the Players talk about how great they are... then they fail their rolls. That's just kind of natural. Everyone wants to be awesome... but Mary Sues tend to go beyond that.

Good point, it's much easier for a DM NPC to be a mary sue.

I once had a DM where no matter what you do, you'd hit a wall, and his npc would come and bail you out.


godfang wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:

I don't actually think it's possible to have a Mary Sue in an RPG. You can have characters who are OP and Min Maxers... people who aren't so great at the RP... but the Players don't really have the power to create a Mary Sue. Players are still bound to the dice rolls.

You need DM Fiat to accomplish that. We had one DM NPC character who traveled with us for an adventurer who the entire plot revolved around and she had all the answers and solved the problems and killed the big bad despite being the 'helpless princess' trope. She was a new DM so I cut some slack there... but that wasn't a very fun game.

There have been a LOT of characters who show up where the Players talk about how great they are... then they fail their rolls. That's just kind of natural. Everyone wants to be awesome... but Mary Sues tend to go beyond that.

Good point, it's much easier for a DM NPC to be a mary sue.

I once had a DM where no matter what you do, you'd hit a wall, and his npc would come and bail you out.

Yeah, the term came about from a fan fiction writer making their character the best at everything... but Players aren't the writers, the DM is. We try to manipulate the story a bit... but our power is illusiory at best.


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Balancer wrote:

Well I did have a Paladin eventually become the primordial of hope in a FR campaign who ended ushering a Golden Age for all as he united all the Good gods and used his armies of constructs piloted by the souls of good mortals who wanted keep fighting the good fight (One if which was named Hotshot and was inhabited by Keldorn Firecam, yes that paladin) to take over the evil planes, contain the Abyss and forced the evil gods into hiding...for all of 60 years.

He's now fighting the World Serpent for all eternity in the outer planes after one of the other party members turned vampire god of evil and the another party member turned druid-lich dragon god of greed unleashed it in retaliation.

Ok, now that game sounds awesome. I was impressed my level 20/Mythic 5 Paladin ruling the kingmaker happily ever after... but your ending rocks. :)


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phantom1592 wrote:
Yeah, the term came about from a fan fiction writer making their character the best at everything... but Players aren't the writers, the DM is. We try to manipulate the story a bit... but our power is illusiory at best.

A Trekkie's Tale is the original Mary-Sue story. It's a parody, let's note. The terms meaning has drifted rather a lot from the original.


Bluenose wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Yeah, the term came about from a fan fiction writer making their character the best at everything... but Players aren't the writers, the DM is. We try to manipulate the story a bit... but our power is illusiory at best.
A Trekkie's Tale is the original Mary-Sue story. It's a parody, let's note. The terms meaning has drifted rather a lot from the original.

Yep :)

However I don't think the term has drifted far enough to what the OP is describing. Without the 'author power,' I'm not sure how the Mary Sue is achieved.

Sovereign Court

What you describe sounds like contradictory characters. A Mary Sue character is unusually adept at challenges and unbelievably lucky. There is also on occasion a component of author's personal fantasy in the mix. I'd agree with what phantom says that it would be pretty difficult for a player to have a mary sue, but rather easy for a GM to place one in a game.

For further reference see just about any young adult series book or film.


godfang wrote:

Being shy, and yet at the same time charming, inteligent and at the same time ferocious.

Being a innocent and at the same time extremely sexual, frail and feminine but at the same time herculean in strength, being shy and awkaward but at the same time charming, it all seems pretty sue-ish to me. It's like you pretend like your character has flaws but at the same time completely negate them with contradictory traits.

It's kind of like how young adult protagonists are often described as 'not attractive' but everyone is attractd to them

But maybe I have a different understanding of what a mary sue is @_@

Those characters quite likely do have flaws, they just aren't the obvious first impression flaws.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What makes a character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, IMNSHO, is that it's an omnicompetent authorial self-insert. Like Travis Taylor's main character in Warp Speed, or any number of DMPCs.


godfang -

I can't quite put my finger on it, but the things your are talking about seem awfully familiar to me. As if I remember another poster here who would talk at great lengths about, "weak, frail, loli, strange, hyper-sexualized," characters.

I wish I could remember who that other poster was. The two of you would probably have a lot to talk about, I suppose.

Dark Archive

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I believe this is who you're thinking of. ^_^


Terquem wrote:

godfang -

I can't quite put my finger on it, but the things your are talking about seem awfully familiar to me. As if I remember another poster here who would talk at great lengths about, "weak, frail, loli, strange, hyper-sexualized," characters.

I wish I could remember who that other poster was. The two of you would probably have a lot to talk about, I suppose.

Oh, it's not a forum person. It was someone over at roll20. I'm sure both are inspired by simmilar genres though


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The three characters described in the OP are what might be termed second tier characterizations. One step beyond a simple cardboard cuttout, these bare contrasting traits and a mild level of depth.

It's a stage many if not most aspiring writers pass through.


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There is a type of Mary Sue PC—I'd call it an Attempted Sue. We've all played with that one player who has a vision for their PC that nobody else shares. These players tend to get frustrated when their interpretation isn't popular, though. When called out on it in-character, they try very hard to justify their PC's actions—both to other characters, and to the players and GM.

A non-Sue example: The kender player who thinks everyone will find their mischievous character to be adorable and charming, as opposed to obnoxious and troublesome.

A Sue example: The "Good" PC who reacts to minor slights with magic or violence, since a proper Sue should never be the butt of a joke.

What I really "like", though, is when these two PCs have to coexist in the same game. Imagine the hypersensitive Sue coping with the "hilarious" kender. Yeah. I've been in that game.

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The GM accidentally caused a TPK when he had Sarenrae intervene in attempt to save the life of a player's self-insert Mary Sue who expected to be treated as heroic and noble despite being deceitful and arrogant.

There was also a player who thought it would be cool if he was a werewolf. He wanted to divert all attention to himself in a big dramatic show where he'd turn into a werewolf as a big revelation in front of everyone at a big dinner party and then leap out the window and run off into the woods. Instead, I drew my sword and prevented his escape so the guards could bound him in chains. In addition, he forgot that the dinner party took place on the third floor of the castle. Oops.


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Seeing KC post makes me wonder how the discussion has gotten this far without discussing everyone's favorite kobold.


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All I know is, if someone comes to my game with a character named Mary Sue, or Gary Stu, they're going to have to do better.


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godfang wrote:

Being shy, and yet at the same time charming, inteligent and at the same time ferocious.

Being a innocent and at the same time extremely sexual,

None of these things preclude the others. Some people are intelligent and shy, but that can be part of their charm. Likewise, they can be quite innocent and extremely sexual (sexuality doesn't preclude innocence, unless you ascribe to certain religions).

For example, a boy/girl who's intelligent, a bit shy, but kinda cute when you get to know them. They've got a heart of gold and hope to one day find their true love, but they're actually pretty excited about the whole sexual stuff when they find that true love. Or if you mean overly sexual as in they dress or act a certain way to get sexual attention, that could actually be a crutch since they're shy and have a difficult time approaching others so they prefer to be approached.

There's a lot of really human ways this would be natural.

Quote:
frail and feminine but at the same time herculean in strength,

I guess it depends on where the strength comes from. Are they athletic but lithe? Is the strength magical in nature or due to some sort of racial supremacy in that area? This sort of thing could be used to draw attention to something being a bit "off" about a character, giving an in-world reason to recognize them as something more than your typical commoner.

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being shy and awkaward but at the same time charming,

See #1. Some people are actually quite charmed by shy and awkward. For some people, it gives off the air of non-hostility and innocence (which may or may not be true).

Quote:
It all seems pretty sue-ish to me. It's like you pretend like your character has flaws but at the same time completely negate them with contradictory traits.

Human beings are complex creatures. Often with seemingly paradoxical personality traits that serve to define them. How those traits are presented in a character, as well as when and where, is usually what makes the difference between seeming a rounded character or a random bag of overemphasized traits.

Quote:

It's kind of like how young adult protagonists are often described as 'not attractive' but everyone is attractd to them

But maybe I have a different understanding of what a mary sue is @_@

Despite everything I've said here, I'm pretty sure I know the type of character you're describing. They're not very fun or interesting and the execution often feels forced and silly. I'm just saying that it's not impossible. :)


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Iomodae in WotR.


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*yawn*

That was so three years ago.


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Also, obligatory links to Trekin's what am I supposed to do thread, and its continuations, The SUE Files: Part II and Part III.


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Traditionally, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is best judged by the challenges they face... specifically, how easily they overcome them, as compared to what they could reasonably be expected to overcome. The worst examples walk right over things that ought to be a challenge just because they're such special snowflakes, and the universe basically bows to them. If they actually have to struggle on a regular basis, they're generally not a Sue/Stu... although they may still have a personality that's not terribly suited for the situation.


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137ben wrote:
Iomodae in WotR.

If they can't handle me cranking Motorhead in Heaven, what f%~%ing chance do they have in the Abyss.


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Iomedae, The Inheritor wrote:
137ben wrote:
Iomodae in WotR.
If they can't handle me cranking Motorhead in Heaven, what f$@&ing chance do they have in the Abyss.

Because there's yet another Mary Su in the abyss, and it's a giant demonic tyrannosaurus.


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Seltyiel Fangirl wrote:
I believe this is who you're thinking of. ^_^

THAT'S IT!


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captain yesterday wrote:

*yawn*

That was so three years ago.

Pharasma then. She was the goddess of birth and death, but she was no better or worse than the others. I actually liked the idea that all the deities had their own view on things and while none were the absolute truth, were each important to the whole.

Then she turned into being older than every being in the multiverse, including the Qupiloth(sp) and could have totally soloed Rovangug but didn't because of reasons and the whole River of Souls and being ground into building blocks for the planes was how it was all going to be.

*sigh* Into the same bin with Drizzt and Elminster.


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Trekkie90909 wrote:
Seeing KC post makes me wonder how the discussion has gotten this far without discussing everyone's favorite kobold.

Pun-Pun was never actually a PC, though, just an idea. I tried to start a little "adventure" to examine the deep backstory and character qualities of Pun-Pun, but nobody played it. ;P

I would like to run a game someday where everybody plays their own "crazy OP build" (like Arkalion, maybe a mage who exploits demiplanes, etc) from level one, though. Towards the end, they learn that their true enemy is none other than the overgod Pun-Pun, and they will need to find a way, pooling all their Mad OP Skills, to take him down.

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MannyGoblin wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

*yawn*

That was so three years ago.

Pharasma then. She was the goddess of birth and death, but she was no better or worse than the others. I actually liked the idea that all the deities had their own view on things and while none were the absolute truth, were each important to the whole.

Then she turned into being older than every being in the multiverse, including the Qupiloth(sp) and could have totally soloed Rovangug but didn't because of reasons and the whole River of Souls and being ground into building blocks for the planes was how it was all going to be.

*sigh* Into the same bin with Drizzt and Elminster.

I don't think it's that bad. Definitely not as bad as Elminster.

I think it's mostly the case that the lore expanded to explain that the multiverse goes through iterations, and Pharasma is one of the few beings older than the current version of the multiverse. The lore behind Groetus completely hinges on this because people worship Groetus on the hope that the god will give his worshiper special treatment in the next version of the multiverse. i wouldn't really call her a Mary Sue for being older.


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Honestly, I see Pharasma as something like the universe's engineer. She has an identity, but... she's less of a person than some of the other deities are, and more like an existence that just keeps things functioning the way they're supposed to. Basically, she's genuinely neutral and doesn't intervene as much as others do - and when she does, it's often by getting mortals to do things, rather than handling it herself. I don't feel that's very sue-ish.


You could go with an Eberron campaign.

They have all your DMPCs-cum-Mary Sues.. err... I mean Observers set to go. If that doesn't keep your campaign on target, your backup is The Chamber*.

*Not even the Giants could stand up to that.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:
Seeing KC post makes me wonder how the discussion has gotten this far without discussing everyone's favorite kobold.

Pun-Pun was never actually a PC, though, just an idea. I tried to start a little "adventure" to examine the deep backstory and character qualities of Pun-Pun, but nobody played it. ;P

I would like to run a game someday where everybody plays their own "crazy OP build" (like Arkalion, maybe a mage who exploits demiplanes, etc) from level one, though. Towards the end, they learn that their true enemy is none other than the overgod Pun-Pun, and they will need to find a way, pooling all their Mad OP Skills, to take him down.

Sign me up.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:
Seeing KC post makes me wonder how the discussion has gotten this far without discussing everyone's favorite kobold.

Pun-Pun was never actually a PC, though, just an idea. I tried to start a little "adventure" to examine the deep backstory and character qualities of Pun-Pun, but nobody played it. ;P

I would like to run a game someday where everybody plays their own "crazy OP build" (like Arkalion, maybe a mage who exploits demiplanes, etc) from level one, though. Towards the end, they learn that their true enemy is none other than the overgod Pun-Pun, and they will need to find a way, pooling all their Mad OP Skills, to take him down.

awesome idea but is it even possible to do so? a character with infinite stats and everything he wants or needs? i mean even as a dm you have to fiat to beat something with that level of power.


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You'd have to find a way to cheat the system. He's like a Lord English.


I'm sure not enough loopholes exist in the pathfinder rule set to allow this; we'd definitely need some homebrew stuff to compete with pun-pun.


See, I don't know about that. There are a lot of rules possibilities to sift through.

Is there anything that makes him immune to rolling a natural one?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

See, I don't know about that. There are a lot of rules possibilities to sift through.

Is there anything that makes him immune to rolling a natural one?

IIRC even one divine rank means natural ones aren't an autofail. High divine rank creatures autoroll a 20. I don't know what divine rank pun-pun has, but I think there is at least one rank involved.


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He has an arbitrary number of divine ranks based on the number of squirrels he uses as proxies.


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Trekkie90909 wrote:
He has an arbitrary number of divine ranks based on the number of squirrels he uses as proxies.

So in other words, natural 20s all day every day?


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Yup. *note that this still sounds like an entertaining premise to start a campaign around*


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lol i always ruled divine rank came form having a ton or people who recognized and worshiped you as a god sooo could pun pun make billions of people to worship him? he probably already has people worshiping him really. too funny


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ooo enchant a +5 adamantine mythic pebble and hit him with the peasant rail gun

maybe you could clone him and have him fight his clones i mean half of infinite is still infinite right? but then you've probably destroyed the universe. and possibly made more punpuns.


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The problem there is that pun-pun doesn't actually have infinite stats; they're just arbitrarily high and achievable through infinite action loops.

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