Request to Allow Story Summoner for Unchained Summoner


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

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First off I am going to start of admitting that my request for allowing the Story Summoner Archetype (The Harrow Handbook pg 25) for Unchained Summoner is based on selfish reasons. It is an Archetype I have always been interested in and once the Harrow Deck was allowed it was the only Archetype that actually made the Summoner interesting to me. In my opinion it is one of the more story rich archetypes around the harrow deck and has links to my favorite module The Harrowing. Just as I was about to start playing the PC I made (Started off with GM credit) PFS changed to Unchained Summoner.

That said here is why it is not legal for Unchained Summoner. According to the Blog "Society Unchained" the unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form. Which the Story Summoner does with the following:

Evolve Base Form (Su): Starting at 8th level, whenever he gains a level, the story summoner can change his eidolon’s base form to a new base form. Once chosen, this base form is set until the story summoner gains another summoner level. This ability replaces transposition.

Now this particular class ability still works with unchained summoner but you would be limited to what base form you can change to by your subtypes available forms which for some would mean you can't change at all. So in itself it works fine with unchained summoner and does not break the unchained summoner class.

So in itself it is not an archetype that does not work with Unchained Summoner. But there is another reason why I am making this request. There is another Archetype that is legal for unchained summoner that does the same thing but allowed you to do so more often and starting at level 1, the Morphic Savant from Monster Summoner's Handbook pg 16. Here is the ability in question:

Eidolon of Chaos: A morphic savant’s eidolon must be of a chaotic alignment (if using the summoner from Pathfinder Unchained, the eidolon must have the azata, demon, or protean subtype). The morphic savant’s eidolon has three base forms: biped, quadruped, and serpentine. Each form has the same feats and skills, but has its own set of evolutions. When the summoner meditates and regains his spell slots for the day, he can select any of the three base forms of his eidolon. The eidolon has 1 fewer evolution point than normal for an eidolon of the morphic savant’s summoner level, and has 1 fewer skill point per Hit Die. This ability alters eidolon.

Yes it is a different ability but it also allows you to change your base form of any of 3 forms at the beginning of the day starting at first level. It is also not limited to the Subtypes base forms as the archetype gives you the base forms not the subtype, so in the case of the Azata and Protean you actually get more base forms.

I would love it if you would reconsider allowing story summoners for unchained summoner based on above and would love to hear input from others against or for.

Grand Lodge **

Steven Lau wrote:
In my opinion it is one of the more story rich archetypes...

I see what you did there..

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

I would love some eyes on this, plus some comments from the peanut gallery ;).

Just because I have an argument above why it think the Archetype should be allowed does not mean I am correct, would love to hear some reasonable arguments against or for.

***** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

So, story summoner gets to apply augment summoning to their eidolon.

Bond senses gets replaced by helpful templates being added to summons.

and the ability to swap places with the eidolon is replaced by the ability to change base forms.

Even though the first bit does make them vulnerable to protection from x spells, the benefit of augment summoning I suspect far outweights the trade off. Additionally the summoner gets to give the eidolon a random +4 to a stat occasionally.

Bond senses is neat as a plot point but I don't think I've ever seen a PC use it. Free template, basically +1 CR to everything summoned seems quite good.

Losing the ability to swap places is a little sad but maker's call still lets the eidolon teleport around. Being able to swap base forms at high levels seems pretty innocuous to me so this is probably a downgrade.

All that said this seems like a significant power increase over the base summoner.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Wait what? There is nothing in summoner that allows you to use augment summoning on their eidolon.

Unless you are comparing Storykin Eidolon ability to augment summoning? They are not the same. Augment summoning is a lot more powerful since you get +4 to both strength and Constitution and Storykin Eidolon gives a +4 randomly to one of 6 stats, which will not always go your way.

Also the templates on summoned monsters are random as well which also means it will not always go your way. There are other ways to get templates on summoned monsters that are a lot more useful.

I agree it may be a bit if a bump but I disagree it is a significant power increase.

That said it has not been allowed for Unchained Summoners for those reasons but only because it modifies the eidolon's type or base form, it is still an authorized archetype for the grandfathered summoners.

Edit: My biggest worry is that it changes the alignment of the Eidolon temporarily which may be an argument against allowing it since it changes the alignment of something that has a fixed alignment due to the plane it comes from. I am not sure if there are other Archetypes that are allowed for Unchained Summoner that do that. Are there?

***** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

I'm not talking about the +4, I'm was saying Storykin Eidolon treats the eidolon as summoned for more purposes, although rereading I take that back.

Sovereign Court ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Yeah, not sure what you are seeing there, Pirate Rob.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Pirate Rob wrote:
I'm not talking about the +4, I'm was saying Storykin Eidolon treats the eidolon as summoned for more purposes, although rereading I take that back.

Yeah if it was allowed to add augment summoning to their eidolon I think the archetype would have not been allowed originally.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Well my request did not make it in additional resources... Let's hope for the next one! ;)

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

So, what I don't get, is why they'd ban an archetype that encouraged people to purchase their Harrow decks?

There's only a few archetypes that require the decks, and those decks are expensive for what is basically alternate playing cards. The main reason to get the deck is to use it in pathfinder. So, from a sales stance, you'd think they'd make an extra push to make sure any Harrow based class was legal to use.

Banning this archetype is like saying, "People who buy Harrow Decks from Paizo are suckers."

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

So update to the above. With the latest Campaign Clarifications a Morphic Savant may only transform their eidolon into legal forms for their subtype in Pathfinder Unchained. Here is the text from Campaign Clarifications:

Campaign Clarifications wrote:
A summoner with the morphic savant archetype may only transform their eidolon into legal forms for their subtype in Pathfinder Unchained. Because protean eidolons can only take the serpentine form, a morphic savant's protean eidolon does not gain fewer evolution points per level than a standard eidolon.

I don't think this changes my opinion that I think Story Summoner Archetype works with unchained summoner. Like I mentioned above the same restrictions can be put on the Story Summoner Archetype.

Paizo Employee ***** Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

The story summoner alters both the eidolon's base form and its alignment—both of which are more defined and increasingly integral to how the unchained summoner and his eidolon operate, compared to the original summoner. Were it merely one or the other, it might be worth adapting the archetype. As it is, though, numerous features would need significant modification and/or the introductions of exceptions that establish difficult precedents for other archetypes.

I don't believe the story summoner's status is going to change.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Thanks for the post John. My biggest worry was that it would actually be the Alignment change that would kill it even though that is not the reason it was originally banned for Unchained Summoner and it was only a temporary change.

Now I can move on. ;)

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