is there anything you can think of that you can't make?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Wouldn't that make "The Water-Balloon Fallacy" more appropriate?

I didn't see s direct explanation for what it was but from context I presume that the Fallacy is that an option shouldn't be dismissed because it is suboptimal because because suboptimal options exist because not every game is about minmaxing and being combat resolution effective among other things. It seems related to the ever famous water balloon argument that not all options are equally effective because it's silly to expect them to given what they are and the differences between them make them individually worthwhile.


Milo v3 wrote:
I actually hadn't noticed that their username was master_marshmallow... I assumed the fallacy was named that because the option is weak like throwing marshmallows at your enemies.

Supposed to be both.

The fallacy is old, like years old.

I coined it in an old fighter thread where someone was complaining about skill points, so I brought up the tactician fighter, the OP of that thread I belts was satisfied. No one else was.

Again, respectfully, if someone is asking about certain niches that do or do not exist, then they deserve to know what options exist, even if they're bad.

More constructive arguments should be "this exists, but it needs to be able to do x for it to function well."

No amount of personal insults aimed at me make the fallacy wrong, or make you a better or more righteous poster than me because of your opinion.

You say it doesn't help to know what's out there? I say that's pretty much the same thing as burning books, and lying to people.

You might not have fun with these hypothetical options, but someone else might.

Again, I'm not even saying that the options aren't "bad, unplayable, or suboptimal" I'm only saying that they exist, which answers the question "can someone do this?".


Milo v3 wrote:
I actually hadn't noticed that their username was master_marshmallow... I assumed the fallacy was named that because the option is weak like throwing marshmallows at your enemies.

I just didn't want to assume anything about the name.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
I actually hadn't noticed that their username was master_marshmallow... I assumed the fallacy was named that because the option is weak like throwing marshmallows at your enemies.

Supposed to be both.

The fallacy is old, like years old.

I coined it in an old fighter thread where someone was complaining about skill points, so I brought up the tactician fighter, the OP of that thread I belts was satisfied. No one else was.

Again, respectfully, if someone is asking about certain niches that do or do not exist, then they deserve to know what options exist, even if they're bad.

More constructive arguments should be "this exists, but it needs to be able to do x for it to function well."

No amount of personal insults aimed at me make the fallacy wrong, or make you a better or more righteous poster than me because of your opinion.

You say it doesn't help to know what's out there? I say that's pretty much the same thing as burning books, and lying to people.

You might not have fun with these hypothetical options, but someone else might.

Again, I'm not even saying that the options aren't "bad, unplayable, or suboptimal" I'm only saying that they exist, which answers the question "can someone do this?".

I don't think anyone has insulted you, I just don't think you bringing up technicalities is helpful for this discussion. If you do bring them up you should at least point out that the option is weaker than more standard options and by about how much. (standard being the best class, unoptimized, of it's role)

to be clear someone saying "there's not much water here" and you pointing to the ocean, isn't helpful. They're likely talking about drinkable water, there's inferred prereqs. sure you can drink the water, but it's best to tell them it isn't recommended.

Also, not mentioning options that don't compete isn't censorship it's pragmatism. When a company asks where can we expand our markets, they don't want ones likely to fail.

to be clear, IN MY OPINION, telling someone something is an option, while it is below suboptimal is closer to lying than telling them the option technically exists.


Bandw2 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
I actually hadn't noticed that their username was master_marshmallow... I assumed the fallacy was named that because the option is weak like throwing marshmallows at your enemies.

Supposed to be both.

The fallacy is old, like years old.

I coined it in an old fighter thread where someone was complaining about skill points, so I brought up the tactician fighter, the OP of that thread I belts was satisfied. No one else was.

Again, respectfully, if someone is asking about certain niches that do or do not exist, then they deserve to know what options exist, even if they're bad.

More constructive arguments should be "this exists, but it needs to be able to do x for it to function well."

No amount of personal insults aimed at me make the fallacy wrong, or make you a better or more righteous poster than me because of your opinion.

You say it doesn't help to know what's out there? I say that's pretty much the same thing as burning books, and lying to people.

You might not have fun with these hypothetical options, but someone else might.

Again, I'm not even saying that the options aren't "bad, unplayable, or suboptimal" I'm only saying that they exist, which answers the question "can someone do this?".

I don't think anyone has insulted you, I just don't think you bringing up technicalities is helpful for this discussion. If you do bring them up you should at least point out that the option is weaker than more standard options and by about how much. (standard being the best class, unoptimized, of it's role)

to be clear someone saying "there's not much water here" and you pointing to the ocean, isn't helpful. They're likely talking about drinkable water, there's inferred prereqs. sure you can drink the water, but it's best to tell them it isn't recommended.

Also, not mentioning options that don't compete isn't censorship it's pragmatism. When a company asks where can we expand our markets, they don't want ones likely to fail....

I don't think you're reading my posts... I never once said you shouldn't include your opinion or evaluation of the option. I said you should bring up the option and cite its flaws, in order to actually offer some help.

You're putting words in my mouth, or rather, omitting them and making a strawman.


you're not bringing up it's flaws though, you state it as if it were an equal option. I'm saying by not including this you're lying by omission.

Quote:


3) Kineticists have so much more to them then just blasting... Utility talents define this. (@ An elementalist that can control elements, not just shoot them at people.)

2) These exist, Marshmallow Fallacy (@ A shapeshifter or maybe a few different shapeshifters that can turn into humanoids, undead, outsiders, and aberrations.){he was talking bout an Ex type too}

Wizard or Sorcerer with an Arcane Bond to a weapon that uses Transformation in combat? There's an Arcanist archetype that does it too...... (@ caster that uses a greatsword)

Anything that uses the Elven Battle Style? Child of Acavna and Amaznen. Tactician Fighter covers this pretty well....(@ A fighter/warrior who uses intelligence as an off-stat instead of charisma(lore wardens and tacticians do not count).)

Variant Multiclassing bard + martial class of choice?(@ non magical bard)

This is how you advertise your options


Green Smashomancer wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Here's one: The Rich kid. A character whos biggest advantage is having way more money than anyone else. Not because he made it, he's just that loaded. Or his parents, one of the two. I'm talking the kind of guy who has a private helicopter when the rest of the party has a 98 Pontiac they deliver pizza with. Can we do that yet?

I'm actually pretty sure there's a prestiege class that does something like this. like one of it's things is you gain 1000xPClass level in gp, every level.

FOUND IT.

Oh nice. That actually is pretty much what I was looking for, but...

Can't do it as the whole character progression.

Vigilante, Rich Parents, then maybe Master Spy or something for later levels. You can totally make it work.


PK the Dragon wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Here's one: The Rich kid. A character whos biggest advantage is having way more money than anyone else. Not because he made it, he's just that loaded. Or his parents, one of the two. I'm talking the kind of guy who has a private helicopter when the rest of the party has a 98 Pontiac they deliver pizza with. Can we do that yet?

I'm actually pretty sure there's a prestiege class that does something like this. like one of it's things is you gain 1000xPClass level in gp, every level.

FOUND IT.

Oh nice. That actually is pretty much what I was looking for, but...

Can't do it as the whole character progression.

Vigilante, Rich Parents, then maybe Master Spy or something for later levels. You can totally make it work.

Vigilante + that PClass is probably a very good compromise.

though I have to think, what WOULD a 20th level aristocrat be?

can he file papers as a move action? harass peasents as a swift action? does he gain + 1/2 level to intimidate checks against peasants? does his presence elicit Awe from those around him?


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The ability to reduce penalties from inbreeding by 1 per five levels?


phantom thief rogue is also a good starting point for an aristocrat.

Bandw2 wrote:
does his presence elicit Awe from those around him?

some form of overwhelming presence effect as a capstone would actually be pretty cool for a 20th level noble thing.


Bandw2 wrote:
PK the Dragon wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Here's one: The Rich kid. A character whos biggest advantage is having way more money than anyone else. Not because he made it, he's just that loaded. Or his parents, one of the two. I'm talking the kind of guy who has a private helicopter when the rest of the party has a 98 Pontiac they deliver pizza with. Can we do that yet?

I'm actually pretty sure there's a prestiege class that does something like this. like one of it's things is you gain 1000xPClass level in gp, every level.

FOUND IT.

Oh nice. That actually is pretty much what I was looking for, but...

Can't do it as the whole character progression.

Vigilante, Rich Parents, then maybe Master Spy or something for later levels. You can totally make it work.

Vigilante + that PClass is probably a very good compromise.

though I have to think, what WOULD a 20th level aristocrat be?

can he file papers as a move action? harass peasents as a swift action? does he gain + 1/2 level to intimidate checks against peasants? does his presence elicit Awe from those around him?

At level 20 you get to rename a country after yourself.


Almost everything mentioned here can be helped withthis


Personally, I want a dancing Oracle thatis both a blessingand cirse from the gods. Maybe an archetype that govea them Bardic Performance with the ability to be duel cursed at the same time. Please and thank you.


christos gurd wrote:
Almost everything mentioned here can be helped withthis

I think the point of this thread was to have Paizo create this wishlist. I don't know if balance or PF Society or what was the motivation. As far as balance, I'd say there is already a lot of broken classes and races in the Paizo stable. But I've also see WAY more broken 3rd Party material.

Liberty's Edge

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I'd guess the reason for wanting Paizo to publish it is the all too common tendency of GMs to ban third party stuff. The perception that it's all broken is still widespread, even if a lot of third party material is better balanced than Paizo's work.


Rich Kid can be done, cool. How bout something more specific? Can I build a character that uses Natural Attacks, combined with the ability to rapidly heal themselves during combat, wolverine style? Doesn't need to be as powerful of course. Lay on Hands really doesn't work, because you need to actually Lay the Hands On. Anything?

Third Party Tangent:
I haven't read Dreamscarred Presses Psionic works yet, but they seem to be the only third-party supplement people universally call "better." Otherwise, it's pretty hit or miss from what I've seen.


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HeHateMe wrote:

Let's try this again with more specifics, in accordance with the OP's wishes:

1. A class that can fight, buff and heal others without using spells or SLAs, and without using performance. Like the 4E Warlord.

2. A shapeshifter or maybe a few different shapeshifters that can turn into humanoids, undead, outsiders, and aberrations.

3. An elementalist that can control elements, not just shoot them at people.

4. A psychic, mobile warrior type of class that gets around the battlefield by dimension door instead of walking, like the 4E Battlemind.

5. A divine caster that specializes in blasting enemies into ash with holy wrath instead of just healing and buffing, like the 4E Invoker.

6. An elemental themed warrior that can create difficult terrain around him or herself and punishes enemies with elemental melee attacks, like the 4E Warden.

7. A non-holy magical knight.

thank you I appreciate that

1. i would like to see a non caster healer too!

2. defiently down for that!

3. maybe a different kind of kineticis?t or maybe one with more options for the elemental manipulations?

4. i thought ultimate psionics had something like that?

5. like a offensive cleric maybe a priest with more offensive and divine inspired spells then?

6. ok not this one would i think actually have to be a new class entirly could be a hybrid of kinetcist and a martial maybe ranger.

7. cavalier? oh sorry still magical so like a magus with mount and heavy armor prof? probably not spell combat focused some other route possibly. so prolly have to have a new class for that one toop.

see now that is what i'm looking for.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
I actually hadn't noticed that their username was master_marshmallow... I assumed the fallacy was named that because the option is weak like throwing marshmallows at your enemies.

Supposed to be both.

The fallacy is old, like years old.

I coined it in an old fighter thread where someone was complaining about skill points, so I brought up the tactician fighter, the OP of that thread I belts was satisfied. No one else was.

Again, respectfully, if someone is asking about certain niches that do or do not exist, then they deserve to know what options exist, even if they're bad.

More constructive arguments should be "this exists, but it needs to be able to do x for it to function well."

No amount of personal insults aimed at me make the fallacy wrong, or make you a better or more righteous poster than me because of your opinion.

You say it doesn't help to know what's out there? I say that's pretty much the same thing as burning books, and lying to people.

You might not have fun with these hypothetical options, but someone else might.

Again, I'm not even saying that the options aren't "bad, unplayable, or suboptimal" I'm only saying that they exist, which answers the question "can someone do this?".

some people have different opinions on whats balanced fun and playable so you can mention the option that might work, I see nothing wrong with that i'm sure if someone else feels it is super sub-optimal they will say so. You could also do something more like ok i want to play X reply well Y is similar to X but isn't quite perfect, so since Y is close i would still like to See an X made for these reasons etc.


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Green Smashomancer wrote:

Rich Kid can be done, cool. How bout something more specific? Can I build a character that uses Natural Attacks, combined with the ability to rapidly heal themselves during combat, wolverine style? Doesn't need to be as powerful of course. Lay on Hands really doesn't work, because you need to actually Lay the Hands On. Anything?

** spoiler omitted **

can do this with spheres, shifter class does it all and then some. to be clear you can do this by level 3 with shifter class.

In normal PF you need like a few levels of ranger and then probably levels of paladin or cleric. It really depends on what you define as rapidly heal themselves. Lay on hands can be done as a swift action on yourself so that's pretty rapid...

I was bored so I made this:

Unnamed Hero
Human paladin 4/ranger 2
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +9
Aura courage (10 ft.)
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +6
Immune disease, fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee gauntlet (from armor) +10/+5 (1d3+10) or
. . unarmed strike +10/+5 (1d3+10) or
. . 2 claws +11 (1d4+10)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 2/day (DC 14, 2d6), combat style (natural weapon[APG]), favored enemy (evil outsiders +2), smite evil 2/day (+2 attack and AC, +4 damage)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +6)
. . At will—detect evil
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . 1st—cure light wounds
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats Aspect of the Beast[APG], Feral Combat Training[UC], Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw)
Traits inspired, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -4 (-8 to jump), Climb +6, Diplomacy +11, Perception +9, Ride +2, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +6, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ lay on hands 4/day (2d6), mercy (fatigued), track +1, wild empathy
Other Gear +1 glamered full plate, amulet of mighty fists +1, belt of giant strength +2, muleback cords[APG], backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), holy text[UE], mess kit[UE], pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, wooden holy symbol of derp, 1,339 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura of Courage +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. fear.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs. Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders) foes.
Feral Combat Training (Claw) Use Improved Unarmed Strike feats with chosen natural weapon.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lay on Hands (2d6 hit points, 4/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 2d6 (2/day, DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Smite Evil (2/day) (Su) +2 to hit, +4 to damage, +2 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.

He is coco, Paladin for the Ethical Treatment of Animals(PETA), his full plate is glamered as some animal's coat... perhaps a wolverines?

yes, he's not very well made, and he plans to go into style feats like dragon style or something.

On an unrelated note, I feel like I'll try to make everyone's suggestions at as low of a level as possible. for funsies


Green Smashomancer wrote:

Rich Kid can be done, cool. How bout something more specific? Can I build a character that uses Natural Attacks, combined with the ability to rapidly heal themselves during combat, wolverine style? Doesn't need to be as powerful of course. Lay on Hands really doesn't work, because you need to actually Lay the Hands On. Anything?

** spoiler omitted **

A Spelleater Bloodrager gets fast healing, and can burn their spell slots for healing.

The Abyssal and Draconic bloodlines give you claws at level 1.

I've never actually looked into natural attack fighting, so I don't know how good it would be, but it seems hard to mess up a Bloodrager so bad it'd be unviable.


Tyinyk wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:

Rich Kid can be done, cool. How bout something more specific? Can I build a character that uses Natural Attacks, combined with the ability to rapidly heal themselves during combat, wolverine style? Doesn't need to be as powerful of course. Lay on Hands really doesn't work, because you need to actually Lay the Hands On. Anything?

** spoiler omitted **

A Spelleater Bloodrager gets fast healing, and can burn their spell slots for healing.

The Abyssal and Draconic bloodlines give you claws at level 1.

I've never actually looked into natural attack fighting, so I don't know how good it would be, but it seems hard to mess up a Bloodrager so bad it'd be unviable.

Level 2 is a fair deal better than level 4 when mine can do it, though mine get's charisma to saves... but you gotta be LG...

Anyway here's my Abyssal blooded Tiefling Healing claw guy:

Unnamed Hero
Male demon-spawn tiefling bloodrager (spelleater) 2 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 20, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 85, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264)
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 9, flat-footed 14 (+6 armor, +1 Dex, -2 untyped penalty)
hp 24 (2d10+8); fast healing 1
Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +3
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee 2 claws +7 (1d6+8)
Special Attacks bloodrage (8 rounds/day), claws
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +2; CMB +7; CMD 17
Feats Power Attack
Traits martial manuscript, reactionary
Skills Climb +7, Perception +7, Spellcraft +1, Survival +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ blood of life, fast movement
Other Gear mwk breastplate, backpack, belt pouch, blanket[APG], flint and steel, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 641 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Blood of Life (1) (Su) Gain fast healing when bloodraging.
Bloodrage (8 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Claws (Su) Gain 2 Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage when raging.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Fast Healing 1 (Ex) Heal damage every round unless you are killed.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

This guy is pretty standard with not much currently, only being useful while raging and 8 rounds per day... he really only has bleed damage immunity too with dat 15 AC, though I guess he's got good attack routine for level 2...

if he gets feral combat training he will get +2 to damage on his claws from traits though. :P


Holy crap. I had no clue pathfinder was this restrictive. May have to think of another game to play.


evenglare wrote:
Holy crap. I had no clue pathfinder was this restrictive. May have to think of another game to play.

your snide comment holds no merit unless you give me something to try to build.


evenglare wrote:
Holy crap. I had no clue pathfinder was this restrictive. May have to think of another game to play.

The beauty of a system like PF is its modularity. Its only when the GM imposes restrictions such as RAW PAIZO PUBLISHED FOR PATHFINDER ONLY that the game's ugly limitations show.

Paizo publisjed a LOT of interesting material for 3.5 in Dragon Magazine, and many excellent 3rd party publishers have thrown immense support into Pathfinder.

Then you ha brilliant forum members providing exceptional ideas in the homebrew forum.


JosMartigan wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Almost everything mentioned here can be helped withthis
I think the point of this thread was to have Paizo create this wishlist. I don't know if balance or PF Society or what was the motivation. As far as balance, I'd say there is already a lot of broken classes and races in the Paizo stable. But I've also see WAY more broken 3rd Party material.

which would only matter in pfs, and I have found much of the time the opposite to be true(and even when they don't they tend to be more responsive to customer feedback and less over nerfy). Disclaimer I occasionally work in 3pp but I see that all the time with lots of companies outside the ones I work in.


Bandw2 wrote:
Tyinyk wrote:
Green Smashomancer wrote:

Rich Kid can be done, cool. How bout something more specific? Can I build a character that uses Natural Attacks, combined with the ability to rapidly heal themselves during combat, wolverine style? Doesn't need to be as powerful of course. Lay on Hands really doesn't work, because you need to actually Lay the Hands On. Anything?

** spoiler omitted **

A Spelleater Bloodrager gets fast healing, and can burn their spell slots for healing.

The Abyssal and Draconic bloodlines give you claws at level 1.

I've never actually looked into natural attack fighting, so I don't know how good it would be, but it seems hard to mess up a Bloodrager so bad it'd be unviable.

Level 2 is a fair deal better than level 4 when mine can do it, though mine get's charisma to saves... but you gotta be LG...

** spoiler omitted **...

Hmm...

No, doesnt fit what I'm looking at in my head. I already mentioned Lay on Hands as not working with the idea. I'm imagining some one without an active effort on their part. Bloodrager idea is a solid start, but, healing only during rage? Not really "there." If rage had some way of lasting hours per level, maybe.

I know it's asking a lot, but that's kind of the point this time around. I'm not even concerned if this is all the character gets as a shtick. I know it's a powerful one.

I'll need to look at that Shifter class, but I'm still interested in a first party option. As noted, a lot of the time, the answer is a no-discussion "no they're broken." Which is a shame, because then I can just build a core-only wizard.


to be clear, then after you're expressed desired amount of healing. a shiftier gains 5 healing per 2 levels that can be done 5 per turn as a free action, but will automatically expend itself if you get knocked below 0 health.

Quick Healing wrote:
As a free action once per round, you may heal 5 hit points as if you had the fast healing ability. You may heal 5 hit points per day in this manner for every 2 shifter levels possessed. If you fall unconscious because of hit point damage and you still have healing from this ability, the ability activates automatically each round until you are conscious again or the ability is depleted for the day.


So.... is there any chance of getting a Divine Dancer Oracle?


Alright, I've got it.

First, be a Tiefling with the Maw or Claw alternate racial trait. That gives you two claw attacks, no class required.

Second, be a Hunter, with the Verminous Hunter Archetype. That changes your Animal focus to a Vermin focus, which grants you the powers of the mightiest creature: the Worm!

The Worm focus grants you fast healing 1 from level 1, as well as a 25% chance to negate crits and SAs, which goes up to FH 2 and 50% at level 8, and FH 3 and 75% at level 15.

"But that's only minutes per level!" you say. Well, all you have to do is let your animal companion die (Or kill him yourself, if you're feeling evil.)

If a hunter's animal companion is dead, he can use the constant Animal focus it normally gets on himself. And, then you can use your regular focus on yourself for one of the other abilities, like the Ant's +2 to strength.

There you go, constant Fast Healing 1 with two primary claw attacks at level 1.


I thought they nerfed the worm

I was right:
Page 98—In the Verminous Hunter archetype’s
Leech vermin focus, in the first sentence, remove the
parenthetical “(this bleed stacks with itself )”. In the
Worm vermin focus, remove “fast healing 1 (Pathfinder
RPG Bestiary 300) and” from the first sentence, remove
“fast healing 2 and” from the second sentence, and
remove “fast healing 3 and” from the second sentence.

Anyway, I decided to show what the shifter could do at 4rth level. Mind you you don't have to follow this build, obviously I just had an idea to show off what a shifter is capable of.

Glili Stonesoul:

Glili Stonesoul (earth elemental form)
Male dwarf shifter 4
CN Large humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 12, touch 8, flat-footed 12 (-1 Dex, +4 natural, -1 size)
hp 43 (4d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +4; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, fortification 25%; Resist acid 4
Weaknesses bodily enhancement, lycanthropic, personal magics, protected soul, regenerate, somatic casting, somatic casting
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., burrow 30 ft.; earth glide
Melee 2 claws +9 (1d6+10), 2 slams +9 (1d8+10)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks enhanced attacks (magic), hatred
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 9, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 6
Base Atk +3; CMB +10; CMD 20 (24 vs. bull rush, 24 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, Extra Bestial Trait, Power Attack
Traits earth-touched, reactionary
Skills Appraise -1 (+1 to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones), Climb +11, Disguise +2, Knowledge (geography) +3, Knowledge (nature) +3, Perception +7 (+9 to notice unusual stonework), Sense Motive +9, Stealth +0, Survival +8; Racial Modifiers +2 Appraise to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones, +2 Perception to notice unusual stonework
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ armored magic (aegis), barrier (ward), bestial traits (claws, quick healing), casting, cure, deflection (aegis), easy focus, elemental transformation, greater restore, greater transformation, invigorate, lingering transformation (2 rounds), magic skill bonus, magic skill defense, physical enhancement (enhance), plant transformation, quick transformation, restore, shapeshifter, shapeshifting, size change, wild empathy
Other Gear amulet of mighty fists +1, feather step slippers[UE]
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alteration: Elemental Transformation You can give your shapeshift target the elemental form
Alteration: Greater Transformation You can give your shapeshift target an extra trait
Alteration: Plant Transformation You can give your shapeshift target the plant form
Alteration: Shapeshifting (2 traits) You can bestow the Blank Form
Alteration: Size Change (+/- 1 size cat.) You can change the size of your shapeshift target
Bodily Enhancement You cannot enhance equipment or objects
Burrow (30 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Casting (CL 3, Wisdom, DC 13) You can cast sphere effects.
Claws (Ex) You gain two claw attacks
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs. monsters of the Giant subtype.
Earth Glide (Ex) Burrowing leaves no tunnel or hole or evidence of the movement.
Easy Focus Maintaining a sphere effect takes a move action instead of a standard action
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Energy Resistance, Acid (4) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Enhanced Attacks (Magic) (Su) Your natural attacks count as magic for overcoming DR
Enhancement: Physical Enhancement +2 Give a creature an enhancement bonus to one physical attribute
Fortification 25% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Greed +2 to Appraise to determine price of nonmagic goods with precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs. Goblinoids/Orcs.
Life: Cure 1d8+3 Heal a target for 1d8+3 hit points
Life: Greater Restore Restore heals ability damage and removes some conditions that it would otherwise lessen
Life: Invigorate (Up to 3 temp HP) Grant up to 3 temporary HP to an injured target
Life: Restore Heal a target's ability damage and remove negative conditions
Lingering Transformation (2 rounds) Shapeshifts on yourself last longer
Lycanthropic You can only target yourself with your shapeshift ability
MSB +4 Use for counterspelling, concentration, caster level checks, and beating SR
MSD 15 Use when defending against an MSB check
Personal Magics You cannot enhance other creatures or their equipment
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Protected Soul You cannot target other creatures with your aegis, only yourself.
Protection: Armored Magic (+3 armor or +1 shield) You can put an aegis on a target that grants them an armor or shield bonus to AC
Protection: Barrier You can create a ward that absorbs damage
Protection: Deflection +1 You can put an aegis on a creature to grant it a deflection bonus to AC
Quick Healing (2/day) (Su) Heal 5 HP as a free action
Quick Transformation Apply and maintain shapeshift on yourself as a move action
Regenerate You may only target yourself with your Life sphere abilities.
Shapeshifter Gain Alteration as a bonus sphere, and use your class level as caster level with Destruction
Somatic Casting You must have at least 1 hand free to use magic, and may be susceptible to ASF
Somatic Casting You must have at least 1 hand free to use magic, and may be susceptible to ASF
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs. unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.

Glili was born with a stronger connection to the earth than most. Eventually one day when he got in a scuffle with some local ruffians he transformed into an earth elemental.

Start of battle transform into earth elemental and cast protection aegis on self(really low AC, but a ton of HP) However, you're a large sized earth elemental with earth glide, have fun attacking people through the ground with reach. Then you go to town. next level get additional limbs so that you can use that slam attack too.


They may have, I can't say I keep up with errata and such, but I double-checked the SRD as I was writing that, and that's what it said.

I'm pretty sure the SRD's pretty good at keeping up to date with balance changed and whatnot, so I think that's a legal build.


Tyinyk wrote:

They may have, I can't say I keep up with errata and such, but I double-checked the SRD as I was writing that, and that's what it said.

I'm pretty sure the SRD's pretty good at keeping up to date with balance changed and whatnot, so I think that's a legal build.

just quoted the errata document... Worm now provides only crit resistance.

looked through their error report, someone reported it was wrong and missing the fast healing, so oh noes, it was readded. :/


That sucks. I'll probably run it as-was, but I guess I'll see if I can find another way to get fast healing early on.


Tyinyk wrote:
That sucks. I'll probably run it as-was, but I guess I'll see if I can find another way to get fast healing early on.

It's pretty OP, though it's funny how the page was correct, errata happened they edited part of it wrong, it was reported that it didn't fit pre-errata and so now it shows pre-errata stuff.


With item crafting and little to no spending, you can buy a ring of regeneration at level 9.

Either that, or get a DM to let you use the older version of Worm.

Or spend every feat getting extra rage on a bloodrager to maximize your healing time.


If there's one class I've always wanted to see in a pen and paper game, it's the Ble Mage from Final Fantasy. A caster with an interesting "mixed bag of spells that buff, debuff, and do healing and damage in strange ways.

The fun part? Each spell is tied to a particular monster's signature attack. And you learn them by being the target of said attacks.

I love it because it turns filling your spell list into an adventure in its own right. Researching creatures, traveling to exotic lands, negotiating with supernatural beings, all tied in with your progression as a character. There is no other class that has such a powerful incentive and reward for discovery.


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
So.... is there any chance of getting a Divine Dancer Oracle?

VMC Bard.


Rosc wrote:

If there's one class I've always wanted to see in a pen and paper game, it's the Ble Mage from Final Fantasy. A caster with an interesting "mixed bag of spells that buff, debuff, and do healing and damage in strange ways.

The fun part? Each spell is tied to a particular monster's signature attack. And you learn them by being the target of said attacks.

I love it because it turns filling your spell list into an adventure in its own right. Researching creatures, traveling to exotic lands, negotiating with supernatural beings, all tied in with your progression as a character. There is no other class that has such a powerful incentive and reward for discovery.

I feel the need to explain why this isn't a "feature"

it's a 2nd(arguably 3rd) Exp track. So by level 10 you were supposed to have spoken/been attacked by 24 different strange monsters or whatever. This really places a bind on a GM and only works in a Video game.

I'm guessing you want something better than favored enemy or simply having high ranks in knowledge skills.


Bandw2 wrote:
to be clear, then after you're expressed desired amount of healing.

Uhh... what?


HyperMissingno wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
So.... is there any chance of getting a Divine Dancer Oracle?
VMC Bard.

PFS Legal Divine Dancer?


TheMonkeyFish wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
So.... is there any chance of getting a Divine Dancer Oracle?
VMC Bard.
PFS Legal Divine Dancer?

Ranks in perform (dance) and flavor your somatic components.


Green Smashomancer wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
to be clear, then after you're expressed desired amount of healing.
Uhh... what?

*sigh* In response to your requirements, for the amount of healing, you desired.

TheMonkeyFish wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
TheMonkeyFish wrote:
So.... is there any chance of getting a Divine Dancer Oracle?
VMC Bard.
PFS Legal Divine Dancer?

I'm really not sure what this entails...


I've noticed a little bit of talk about it and I would like to see a Blue mage (think final fantasy)

maybe give them something akin to evolution points and as they get hit by abilities form monsters they could buy the ability for a cost of their evolution points. you would practically need an entire paper back devoted to them with costs divided up among monstrous abilities but it would be cool.

my regenerating stone gazeing fire immune blue mage will do Bad breath and give all the enemies a bunch of debuffs hahahahaha!


Vidmaster7 wrote:

I've noticed a little bit of talk about it and I would like to see a Blue mage (think final fantasy)

maybe give them something akin to evolution points and as they get hit by abilities form monsters they could buy the ability for a cost of their evolution points. you would practically need an entire paper back devoted to them with costs divided up among monstrous abilities but it would be cool.

my regenerating stone gazeing fire immune blue mage will do Bad breath and give all the enemies a bunch of debuffs hahahahaha!

it "could" be "balanced" if it required some kind of roll to aquire and was based on the monsters CR. so that you could only feasibly get cooler things at higher level... but ultimately this would probably just make a system too complicated to manage.


Vidmaster7 wrote:

I've noticed a little bit of talk about it and I would like to see a Blue mage (think final fantasy)

maybe give them something akin to evolution points and as they get hit by abilities form monsters they could buy the ability for a cost of their evolution points. you would practically need an entire paper back devoted to them with costs divided up among monstrous abilities but it would be cool.

my regenerating stone gazeing fire immune blue mage will do Bad breath and give all the enemies a bunch of debuffs hahahahaha!

Use the Summoner Evolutions.

Have them be based on a pool, and allow them to give them out as buffs to the party members.

Could be a full 9 caster version of the Summoner.


I agree it would be a Massive ordeal to make it balance it would probably have to be its own paper back like I said just to get everything you would need right.. but it would be cool!

Once you get all the abilities ranked and point costed by how powerful they are you would probably make some of the unavailable till certain levels. You could also make them retain their ability score dependence so you would either focus on ones with your high attribute or accept a wider variety at lower saves.

It would easily take up more page space then the kineticist did.


Vidmaster7 wrote:

I agree it would be a Massive ordeal to make it balance it would probably have to be its own paper back like I said just to get everything you would need right.. but it would be cool!

Once you get all the abilities ranked and point costed by how powerful they are you would probably make some of the unavailable till certain levels. You could also make them retain their ability score dependence so you would either focus on ones with your high attribute or accept a wider variety at lower saves.

It would easily take up more page space then the kineticist did.

you misunderstand, I think it'll be too hard or complicated a system for the player to manage. not to make.


Hmm maybe hard to really know since its just theory. I think I could probably swing it anyways.


It depends on if you restrict it to "takes the hit" or if you create an alternate method Like Gau had...(The Veldt).

Just create a D-100 table for suitable monsters by level per terrain and allow the player to perform a "walkabout" to acquire "spells" during downtime.


Naruto-style puppetry, remotely controlling an inert construct as your main damage.

An arcane caster who can wear heavy armour even at low levels.

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