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I recently had a rather interesting question put to me by a rather new(ish), but good GM- high energy, great prep and the players really like him. So here it is...
If they (the GM) doesn't own or otherwise have access to a particular supplement or Paizo product can them limit or 'not-allow' a particular character class(s) at their table. I was inclined to say that they had to allow any player with the proper reference materials at their table, but they further explained that they do not own either Occult Adventures or Ultimate Intrigue and for that reason don't feel "comfortable" or "knowledgeable" enough to GM when parties contain characters utilizing either of these books. He explained that it slows games down when he has to either borrow the book from the player in question to double-check a power or ability and feels that because of this he is often second-guessed by players.
I mentioned that he might want to just GM Core- but frankly there isn't that much (if any) call for Core games in my particular area. I am putting this out there go get some feedback from the community. Ultimately, he is volunteering his time and I can't 'force' him to do anything against his will... but I was wondering if anyone else has had an issue like this before and wouldn't mind sharing some of their wisdom.
Thanks.
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Sounds like GM inexperience.
The trick here is to trust the players most of the time, and only stop to check a rule if something really doesn't sound right. That's why the player has to own their resources.
If the GM is really keen to learn the rules for other classes, point him towards the PRD to pick up what he wants to know.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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He can ask the players if they can stick to what he knows. Most people have several characters, so it could work.
He can also ask people to walk trough their characters with them before the session. Not as an audit, but as a way for him to learn.
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While I am not a mind-reader... I think the 'roll with it' idea is what he has trouble with. I don't know if is a personality thing or not, but he does seem rather 'structured.'
There is the additional concern of 'making' him do something he is uncomfortable with. I don't want to lose an energetic (if less experienced) GM because he feels he is swimming in the deep end of the pool and not treading water.
Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I will spend some time at (or near) his table for the next few sessions he GMs and help him with the rough spots.
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If they (the GM) doesn't own or otherwise have access to a particular supplement or Paizo product can them limit or 'not-allow' a particular character class(s) at their table. I was inclined to say that they had to allow any player with the proper reference materials at their table, but they further explained that they do not own either Occult Adventures or Ultimate Intrigue and for that reason don't feel "comfortable" or "knowledgeable" enough to GM when parties contain characters utilizing either of these books.
The GM can read up on the Occult Adventures classes to their hearts content by following this link.
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I suspect few GMs are 100% familiar with every class, race, feat, spell, bardic masterpiece, trait, weapon enchantment, boon, ninja trick, animal companion, grapple option, or other random rules element.
Heck, there are plenty of spells in the CRB I'm unfamiliar with.
That doesn't mean I can ban players or characters from my tables for using something I don't know well. *They* presumably did everything right: they're familiar with the mechanic, they bought/brought the source, and they're reasonably quick at figuring out any math involved.
I'd be needlessly punishing them by disallowing their character option because *I* didn't do everything in my ability to learn about their choice. If I was the player, I'd feel frustrated for doing everything within my ability to comply with the rules.
Sure, no GM *has* to run for a player that they don't want to, but it's poor form to use it regularly as an excuse.
It's just a quick slide down the bunny slope to then claim I'm "unfamiliar" with rules elements I don't personally like.
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Fun stories about acquiring experience:
1) I was clueless when someone first brought a Magus to my table. "They get a free extra attack? No way!" So I built a Magus to learn how they work.
2) The ACG was just released, and I'd not playtested the Investigator. Next time someone ran a Quest Arc, I grabbed Quinn. Now my Investigator is one of my favorite characters.
3) The Occult Adventures playtest was in full swing, and suddenly every table was full of Kineticists. So I grabbed the playtest document and rolled one up.
4) I rarely repeat character options. Few of my 30+ characters even use the same weapon. None of my spellcasters rely on the same spell. By trying something new, I learn something new.
Now, I've been doing this for 4 years, so it's understandable that your new GM won't have the same experience, but until they do, now's the best time to start.
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Welcome to GMing Pathfinder in the modern era. Many (most?) of us no longer feel like we have a good enough handle on the rules for all the things a player brings to a PFS table- there are just too many rules now. And, yes, some players will bring seemingly broken things to the table. Often they're built legally. Often, though, they're wrong, either because the player didn't fully understand the rules, or because the player should have known better. (Yes, I have seen the latter, once even from somebody wearing a red VC shirt.)
It's no longer really practical for the GM to properly full the "rules arbiter" roll that it nominally part of being a GM.
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The one thing, though, the GM can do, is ask for use of the additional materials that the player is using to look things up for themselves. If the player does not have the occult adventures book with him, for example, then the GM does have the right to disallow the character, since they cannot look up the answers to questions.
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What Jack said.
We cannot, as GMS and coordinators, refuse a player a seat based on the GMs not having the references for the character they are playing. The GM is required to have the core assumption at the table. All other resources needed for a player to play his character is the responsibility of the player to provide should there be a question by the GM.
The GM can always look at the PRD to bone up on the basics of the class; and if he has questions ask the player for the Occult book (or whatever book) reference for the class/feature. If the player cannot provide the reference then the GM can refuse to let that character be played or feature to be used. But as long as the player has the appropriate resources he should be allowed to sit and play
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Is it possible for people to avoid that GM and still have a chance to play? I know that I would be unhappy if I was asked to use a different character when I really wanted to try some new option, especially if I do not get to play much.
If the person doesn't have the required materials? I would have to say "no". Whether the GM is familiar with the classes, etc, the player is still out of compliance with the rules.
Lesson? Always bring your additional resource materials.
EDIT:
If the person does have all the requisite materials, then they should get to play.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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The one thing, though, the GM can do, is ask for use of the additional materials that the player is using to look things up for themselves. If the player does not have the occult adventures book with him, for example, then the GM does have the right to disallow the character, since they cannot look up the answers to questions.
You mean the book that has massive errata and unless you look at this site religiously won't know it exists? That is always the odd thing about that rule as it doesn't really help in the case of emergency errata.
EDIT:Also, have the GM ask if the players have anything odd before the game starts. Doing it in the middle of the game slows down the game entirely.
I feel like outside of the Mesmerist which I still can't find all the rules for the most common questions I get about my characters fall under the not understanding how Core rules works.
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A downside is that newish players look to me as an experienced player and often ask "How does <weird ability> work with <new class and/or archetype>?" resulting in a "I have no idea." response. I am not particularly apologetic about it, GMs are not responsible to buy every bit of paper Paizo sells.
Instead of simply saying you don't know. Ask the player if the have the reference for said "fluffy item". If they don't suggest they email the local coordinator with their question. If they do have the reference read over it quick, give a "this is my interpretation but you may want to ask Local VO for clarification" comment. Makes for better community relations between GM and players.
It is true that GMs are not required to buy every piece of Paizo paper available, as GMs we are looked at as someone that is able to interpret what is written on the pieces of Paizo paper.
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The best thing (in my opinion) to say in a situation like that, where you are unfamiliar with the rules to a class/archetype/spell: ask to look over the resource, read the relevant section, and make a ruling on the spot. "This is how I'm going to rule it works for right now. After the game we can look a bit more in-depth/ask the VO/pistol duel, but in the interest of keeping the game moving we'll go with <Insert ruling here>" and then be consistent through the rest of the scenario.
It can be kept really friendly and non-adversarial too. "Wow, that sounds pretty cool! What book is that from? Can I take a look? (Read section) Yeah, that's pretty good, but I'm reading it like this, so for right now we'll go with this. We can talk about it after game, though!"
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No, you can't disallow people from not having resources you don't have.
Just go along with it unless it seems REALLY bad. Look it up later. Most of it is on the PRD if he wants to get more familiar with it.
To clarify this a bit, the player does need to supply proof they own the book. You also need to inform the GM of any additional resources you're using pre-game so the GM can familiarize them self with the rules you're using.
I bring a watermarked printout of any AR pages I'm using for my character. That way I can hand them to the GM pre-game and they have a reference source on-hand for what my character can do. Which does mean that for Kahel I had to print out 30 pages or so from Occult Adventures to cover her kineticist abilities and archtype, the page detailing Kitsune from advanced race guide, and so forth.
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To clarify this a bit, the player does need to supply proof they own the book.
This is checked rarely...
You also need to inform the GM of any additional resources you're using pre-game so the GM can familiarize them self with the rules you're using.
And this is done never. Assume most of the people at the table have stuff outside of core.
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Guess you can't call me "most people". And just because the GM doesn't ask you to verify you have a pfs legal copy of a book being used, doesn't mean they aren't suppose to.
Okay, if it's a regular group I can see only asking for verification on a given book once. But if it's someone you've never GMed before, you really should do this. Equally as a player, you should be prepared to show the GM such materials when you sit at the table. Burden for supplying the GM rules needed for your character are on you, the player. The GM is under no obligation to buy every single book then memorize them.
Heck, even as a player I don't have every thing in the books I do own memorized. Or even know what all is in some of them. I just had to ask what book a feat from Ultimate Magic is in, and I've owned that book since the Humble Bundle sale earlier in the year. But other then the Words of Power stuff and reading over magus and summoners, I hadn't really gone over much of that book yet.
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You also need to inform the GM of any additional resources you're using pre-game so the GM can familiarize them self with the rules you're using.And this is done never. Assume most of the people at the table have stuff outside of core.
If my standard GM preamble didn't contain this right at the start:
I'd never get any tips on what stuff I should be reading up on to build my own characters! :)
Admittedly, my next words are usually "Very cool! I'll trust you to be able to tell me the rules that apply to that as needed."
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Due to bad experiences in the past, I like to know what books people are pulling the unusual stuff from. Sometimes it's an "Oh cool, where's that found" thing. But when GMing I like to know exactly how a class works. Sure PFS was based on 3.5, but there's enough weird changes to various classes and sometimes spells/feats that I've been caught off guard by those differences. For example the ki mechanics of core monks came out of nowhere to me. I'd played monks fairly often in 3.5 so thought I knew the class. Then they threw in ki and things you can do with it. Serious "Huh" moment for me when I first made a monk in pathfinder.
Other times it's because I honestly don't know how the class works. And after some bad experiences in homebrew games with people stretching the truth about how the class works, I want to know how the strange class this player is using works. I want to know exactly how his alchemist functions so I can properly adjucate it. I want to know precisely what you can spend a magus's arcane pool on, as well as what the costs and limitations are. If the person wants to use a system I'm unfamiliar with, I want to read up on that system before I get blindsided.
That's true in homebrew campaigns I run. And it's equally true if I'm running a PFS table. Alchemists I now understand better, but if someone pulls out a gunslinger or investigator I'm gonna want to look over the rules for it first. I'm unfamiliar with how those classes work after all. I'm very familiar with how a kineticist and spiritualist work since I've played both of those classes. But a mesmerist or occultist? Still kinda fuzzy on those even though I've tinkered with an occultist build or two.
That, and as I mentioned before... if I've not ran a game with you in the past or at least been at the table when you verified your source material, then I'm required to verify you do own a PFS legal copy of said source material being used. It's a condition I'd waver if you're playing a pregen of that class. But if it's your actual character, I'm suppose to check. But hey, the next time you sit at my table I now know you have that source book, so I'd only need to ask for verification if you pulled something from a new book I don't know for a fact you have.
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And this is done never. Assume most of the people at the table have stuff outside of core.At least one online GM standard RSVP contains a section asking for details of any material used outside of core. It's rare but it does happen.
For the Skykey Solution pbp table I'm playing I did ask where to send my proof of chronicles and proof of book ownership for things being used on Kahel. Never got an answer, but I did try to observe the rule. Got PDFs made for my chronicles and select watermarked page printouts from the books being used so I can verify. Namely a watermarked printout of the inside cover that clearly lists the name of the book.
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A quick skim over the rules is often good enough, but having a printout of the revelent rules or PRD loaded with the info can be a good thing. Even as a player, I've found myself reviewing the info on my kineticist at times to figure something out. once I realized I had made a mistake while doing such a review, and informed the GM about it. which to be fair, the GM had also made the inaccurate conclusion due to missing a few lines of text. It happens.
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And this is done never. Assume most of the people at the table have stuff outside of core.At least one online GM standard RSVP contains a section asking for details of any material used outside of core. It's rare but it does happen.
Thats online with a week to respond. Which is roughly how long it takes to lis EVERYTHING a character is using...
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Thats online with a week to respond. Which is roughly how long it takes to lis EVERYTHING a character is using...And this is done never. Assume most of the people at the table have stuff outside of core.At least one online GM standard RSVP contains a section asking for details of any material used outside of core. It's rare but it does happen.
If you choose to use Hero Lab, it will build the list of books that a character uses automatically for you.
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I'm surprised only one person has suggested this, so it's worth repeating: I'd recommend that this GM stick to GMing low level stuff until he's more comfortable with more of the stuff that his players might bring.
Frankly, that's what I do. I'm a 3 star GM, half way to 4th star, and I've only GMed a 5-9 adventure once, and never GMed anything higher than that in PFS. I probably could/should, but the low level stuff is just easier, both with dealing with odd PC stuff at the table, and looking up tons of monster/NPC stats in my prep.
I do GM higher level stuff for my home group. We're up to level 15 in the Rise of the Runelords campaign I'm running. But I also know their PCs as well as they do.
On a related note, I took a break for a while when I wasn't playing much PFS. I was GMing that Runelords group, and we ended up playing the same night as PFS at the local store. So for about a year there, I rarely played or GMed PFS. That was around the time that the ACG and Unchained were published, and I returned to playing/GMing PFS regularly around the time Occult Adventures came out.
The first time I GMed after that, 5 of the 6 players at my table were using PCs with classes I didn't know. And that was an "occult" themed adventure where the final boss has different stats depending on the enemies he's fighting. So I'm supposed to give it different stats based on how many full BAB people, or arcane casters, or divine casters are at the table, and I'm sitting there asking the kineticist, psychic, shaman, and investigator, "So... are any of you arcane casters?"
I almost decided to never GM in Society again because of that table, so I know how the GM referenced in the initial post feels. Luckily, I was already scheduled to GM again not long after that, and I felt bad about dropping out, so I stuck it out. The next table was a lot easier on me, with less of the new classes. And eventually, I started reading up on the new classes, and even making my own PCs with them.
I guess that's really the point. Just encourage the guy to push the boundaries of his comfort zone. Eventually, it'll get easier.
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Each to their own. I get enough use out of hero lab that it's worth the money to me. Each to their own though.
It's more than the accounting.
I can't get a usable character sheet out of it and it drops in weird penalties and bonuses that I can't track down. At gencon i had a level 5 cleric that, somehow had no bonuses to hit despite not dumping strength.
If someone is asking every character for the source of every piece of equipment they have just walk, because you're going to find another game before the 5 hour accounting session is done
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It's worth noting that asking "what weird thing do you do?" is a good question to ask others even if you're playing a PC rather than GMing. For example, if your build means you prefer to be the only one attacking a target, it's good to mention that up-front so that both the GM and your companions are on the same page.
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I've noticed that I tend to mainly use stuff from 2 or 3 books at a time. Sometimes it's because I honestly don't know much about Option X so I overlook it. Other times it's because options Q and T fit my concept better, and they happened to all be from the same book as option N. As such, either show a watermarked printout (fastest option) or the watermarked cover from the pdf on my tablet, and the GM knows I have that source book thus am able to use the options inside it. That doesn't take very long.
I also bring with me a printout of anything I'm using that's not in the CRB. This way if it comes up and the GM doesn't know what the class ability, feat, or piece of gear does I can hand that over. Again, doesn't take that long. It's actually less time then digging out a book or pdf and searching through it, or waiting for the PSRD to load in a busy venue with dial-up speed wireless.
That said, Froomer does have a good idea. All those weird classes, archtypes, and so forth are much more manageable at low levels. There's fewer additional rules you have to learn, and fewer bizarre interactions between feats/class abilities/enchanted aardvarks. Not that there is ever an instance where enchanted aardvarks aren't a bizarre interaction.
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It's worth noting that asking "what weird thing do you do?" is a good question to ask others even if you're playing a PC rather than GMing. For example, if your build means you prefer to be the only one attacking a target, it's good to mention that up-front so that both the GM and your companions are on the same page.
What weird thing you do is fine and standard operating procedure. I consider "I'm going to cuddle the dungeon to death with the power of friendship" to be a heads up now to cut down on the DM's bar tab later...
"Anyone here using books other than core" is kind of a foregone conclussion at this point.
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You know before this thread I have only done a few (less than 10) character audits in my entire time as PFS GM. With that said, the amount of "I never check" and "I don't care" has me somewhat perplexed.
As GM's it is our job to pay some attention to the books and supplements outside CORE that our players are using. I know there are shenanigans going on, but as a GM in PFS you understand the 'if you don't own it you can't use it' rule right? It's not a suggestion...
As a VL (or VC or VA) this job (duty if you like) is spelled out for you in rather plain detail. Now I am not encouraging anyone to become the 'Paizo Supplement Police' but adopting a fully apathetic attitude towards occasionally checking player resources does seem to be dropping the ball.
Here endth the rant.
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What weird thing you do is fine and standard operating procedure. I consider "I'm going to cuddle the dungeon to death with the power of friendship" to be a heads up now to cut down on the DM's bar tab later...
I'm not following you here - is your point that some answers to that question are so unusual or powerful that they break the game? If so, I agree that's possible, in which case I think it's the GM's job to step in and make sure that the other players get their chance to shine, even if that one player is technically following the rules.
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The one thing, though, the GM can do, is ask for use of the additional materials that the player is using to look things up for themselves. If the player does not have the occult adventures book with him, for example, then the GM does have the right to disallow the character, since they cannot look up the answers to questions.
This exactly where I went...thanks Jack Brown
And regarding the young man (GM) in question. He has never GM'd anything above a 3-7 level scenario (low tier). I have spoken to him and told him my prior decision stands... he has to suck it up and let anyone who has the proper materials play at his table.
With that said, I also told him he can ask to see 'each and every' supplement being used by the player/character in question to be sure that if the need arises for him to reference a power/ability the player has it handy. Not from the PRD or OGC website... on their tablet with a watermark or in hard print.
He seems to be OK with that...
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What weird thing you do is fine and standard operating procedure. I consider "I'm going to cuddle the dungeon to death with the power of friendship" to be a heads up now to cut down on the DM's bar tab later...I'm not following you here - is your point that some answers to that question are so unusual or powerful that they break the game? If so, I agree that's possible, in which case I think it's the GM's job to step in and make sure that the other players get their chance to shine, even if that one player is technically following the rules.
Flutter: Is going to standard action wild empathy animals magicals beasts vermin, plants, and oozes: she literally runs at the monster and starts belly rubbing them awwwing about how cute they are.
Grr is a foxform fighter kitsune that climbs on enemies, walks into their square, applies all sorts of penalties and starts flanking from inside the square.
THOSE kinds of characters require a warning. And a free drink.
Inquisitor or Life oracle or "I use a naganata" or "i dual wield kurki's" does not really warrant a warning at this point. Informing a DM that you have resources outside of core has kind of fallen by the wayside
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You know before this thread I have only done a few (less than 10) character audits in my entire time as PFS GM. With that said, the amount of "I never check" and "I don't care" has me somewhat perplexed.
As GM's it is our job to pay some attention to the books and supplements outside CORE that our players are using. I know there are shenanigans going on, but as a GM in PFS you understand the 'if you don't own it you can't use it' rule right? It's not a suggestion...
As a VL (or VC or VA) this job (duty if you like) is spelled out for you in rather plain detail. Now I am not encouraging anyone to become the 'Paizo Supplement Police' but adopting a fully apathetic attitude towards occasionally checking player resources does seem to be dropping the ball.
Here endth the rant.
Here is the problem, audits take time. Usually time that you do not have. Unfortunately, I can not think of any good solutions. However, that does sound like a good idea for a discussion.
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Here is the problem, audits take time. Usually time that you do not have. Unfortunately, I can not think of any good solutions. However, that does sound like a good idea for a discussion.You know before this thread I have only done a few (less than 10) character audits in my entire time as PFS GM. With that said, the amount of "I never check" and "I don't care" has me somewhat perplexed.
As GM's it is our job to pay some attention to the books and supplements outside CORE that our players are using. I know there are shenanigans going on, but as a GM in PFS you understand the 'if you don't own it you can't use it' rule right? It's not a suggestion...
As a VL (or VC or VA) this job (duty if you like) is spelled out for you in rather plain detail. Now I am not encouraging anyone to become the 'Paizo Supplement Police' but adopting a fully apathetic attitude towards occasionally checking player resources does seem to be dropping the ball.
Here endth the rant.
Which assumes a full audit is needed. In my experience it likely isn't. Simply asking "Are you using anything from an Additional Resource?" Is good enough.
If the answer is yes, "I need proof you own a PFS legal copy of that book" is the next part. The player should already have this on hand. I pre-emptively get my PDF or printouts ready to show the GM as I get set up.
This may be followed up with "Is there anything unusual I need to be aware of?" What's unusual can vary. Sometimes it's the entire class if the GM hasn't researched it much yet. Or some obscure feat combo you're doing. Or oddball changes in how your class plays due to an archtype. For example in a Strange Aeons AP I was almost part of (starting soon, too many applicants) GM wasn't quite aware of how my archtype changes how kineticists play. Also hadn't noticed I had an alternate racial trait till I explained how I got the attributes I had.
None of this is a full audit It's just a set of 2 or 3 questions that can be quickly answered. If problems crop up or you suspect something hinky is going on, THEN you maybe do a full audit. But asking "Are you using things not in the CRB? Can you prove you own the books needed" isn't an audit, it's doing your job of verifying the player is using materials they are allowed to use.
As someone else mentioned, a Hero Lab printed character sheet includes a list of what books were used for stuff. Looking over this list then asking to see proof of book ownership isn't that difficult.
Actually, why would anyone think it's going to take a week to submit a list of what books you used when making/leveling/outfitting your character? Shouldn't you already know what books you were using? Okay, I may have to double check the exact source of some traits. But it's not like I have that many books that supply additional traits.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If the answer is yes, "I need proof you own a PFS legal copy of that book"That would take me half an hour now, with a keyboard, a working internet connection and archives of nethys. Doing that at the table? Not going to happen. It;s not worable.
Funny, I can produce proof with all the books I have, and that's with a character who boasts a full half page of AR.