|
If the answer is yes, "I need proof you own a PFS legal copy of that book"That would take me half an hour now, with a keyboard, a working internet connection and archives of nethys. Doing that at the table? Not going to happen. It;s not worable.
If you can't show you own it in 5 minutes or less I am sure someone else would be more than willing to take your spot at the table.
BTW, I never even mentioned a full audit. I merely mentioned that having a player show (either in print or on a tablet) is a good way to make sure the necessary materials are on hand for easy reference.
@BigNorseWolf- maybe as you build/design/advance a character you should have some notations on your character sheet to let you know where the more obscure traits/equipment/feats are originating from- I mean you obviously are consulting the resource(s) when you design and advance your character right?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder Society Organized Play's guild guide says you need to have a physical copy, watermarked pdf, or printout from a watermarked pdf to use something on the Additional Resources list. So you consider it unworkable to expect people sitting at your table to have
A. the physical book on hand
or
B. a watermarked printout of the inside cover (because it'll use less colored ink) that says the name of the book and/or a watermarked printout of the pages containing information they used
or
C. a device they don't mind handing you which contains the watermarked pdf that they can show you before the game starts,
According to the guild guide, if the player is unable to supply one of these three things then the GM is justified in saying "no you can't play that character this session." It's not up to the GM to own every single book. All the GM is expected to have is the CRB (not even a watermarked copy) and access to the PSRD. Note, this doesn't mean the archives of nethys which is a third party site, it means the PSRD.
The steps a player needs to take to meet one of those three criteria are
Physical Book:
1. buy the book in a game store, possibly the venue you're playing at
2. bring the book to the PFS session
3. set book on table so that GM can see it
Watermarked printout:
1. buy the PDF through the paizo website
2. download the pdf
3. print off at least one page (the inside cover)
4. show print off to GM
PDF:
1. buy the PDF through the paizo website
2. download the pdf onto a laptop, tablet, or other device you're bringing to the session
3. (optional) rename files so you can quickly identify which book is which
4. open pdf and show game master
Which of those three options has steps which are unreasonable to expect a player to have taken before the session? Which of these three options has steps that are so time consuming it would take hours to handle the pre-session verification of resources? I'm really curious, since if dealing with a pdf or printout then the preparation would have been done before the person likely even showed up for the game.
At one point when I arrived for a PFS session early I decided to buy a couple player companion books so I could finally use the options in them for my character. Namely because I wanted a couple pieces of equipment from them that I knew about thanks to hero lab. So I signed into Paizo, bought my pdfs, and downloaded them. I then opened the files and turned my laptop around to show the GM. He checked the watermarks to verify the pdfs were pathfinder society legal. That was it, verification done and I bought the items I was eying before the game with the GM signing off on the purchases. Whole thing took maybe 2 minutes, much of which was buying then downloading the files.
Later when I wanted to do something which made him question one of my abilities, I pulled out the printout with that ability's rules on it. This got handed over, GM read the ability, ruling gets made, printout is handed back to me, game continues.
That's unworkable? Please BigNorseWolf, explain this to me. I respect you, but I'm confused about how this is unworkable.
|
|
Funny, I can produce proof with all the books I have, and that's with a character who boasts a full half page of AR.If the answer is yes, "I need proof you own a PFS legal copy of that book"That would take me half an hour now, with a keyboard, a working internet connection and archives of nethys. Doing that at the table? Not going to happen. It;s not worable.
When I pull out Kahel at a table, I'm pulling out 12 or 13 chronicles, inventory tracking sheet, an 8 page character sheet (if I have a printout of it), a printout of all thirty pages (watermarked of course) on the kineticist class from Occult Adventures, a printout of the page from Occult Adventures detailing the overwhelming soul archtype (also watermarked), and the watermarked printed page from Advanced Race Guide that details kitsune and Fast Shifter alternate racial trait. Plus I'm checking which other books I have equipment from so I can open the pdf on my tablet and show the GM I own the book.
And that's as I'm getting out my dice and so forth. So it's basic setup for sitting at the table. Heck, I use those 30 pages of printed material myself since it's faster then waiting for my tablet to load the entire pdf. Front cover opens immediately, scrolling through the book can take time.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you can't show you own it in 5 minutes or less I am sure someone else would be more than willing to take your spot at the table.
One it. Sure
All the its?@BigNorseWolf- maybe as you build/design/advance a character you should have some notations on your character sheet
I'd really rather save that space to make things legible and get on with playing the game.
|
|
Sorry if I seem... obsessive regarding this. I just don't understand how people can claim it's too much effort to verify players own a PFS legal copy of the books being used.
Right at the top of the AR page it says
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list. (If you're bringing a printout of the pages, it must be from the Paizo PDF and not text copied and pasted into a blank word processing document). Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.
Emphasis mine. Granted, I don't carry around a printed copy of the AR doc. But I do regularly download an updated version of it, and have the AR doc bookmarked.
|
|
Sorry if I seem... obsessive regarding this. I just don't understand how people can claim it's too much effort to verify players own a PFS legal copy of the books being used.
Because it's too much effort to verify every source on every character. Even if you can get the source in 30 seconds 10 things per character x 6 characters thats half an hour of game time.
|
|
And if you need more than 1 character are you renting a u haul or a pack mule?
When I pull out Kahel at a table, I'm pulling out 12 or 13 chronicles, inventory tracking sheet, an 8 page character sheet (if I have a printout of it), a printout of all thirty pages (watermarked of course)
Got a file folio. One section contains PFS standard characters, one contains PFS core characters, then I have different sections devoted to different game systems or campaigns. Such as one is dedicated to Heroes Unlimited npcs, another for Heroes Unlimited adventures, a 3rd for my player characters for that system. I typically show up for a session carrying a backpack holding my laptop, power cord (for if an outlet is close by), a tablet containing copies of all my pathfinder pdfs, dice box, and folio holding my characters and/or adventure I'm running if I'm the GM. Oh, and my box of minis.
|
|
Because it's too much effort to verify every source on every character. Even if you can get the source in 30 seconds 10 things per character x 6 characters thats half an hour of game time.Sorry if I seem... obsessive regarding this. I just don't understand how people can claim it's too much effort to verify players own a PFS legal copy of the books being used.
Unless you're routinely doing conventions, why do you need to verify resources every time? Don't you regularly have the same people showing up? In which case, you should only have to verify a given resource with that person once.
|
|
Locally, same group of people (haven't been able to participate much lately due to work). And usually the same GM. Even if I'm not playing the same character every time, I've only had to verify a given book once with a given GM. After that, they know I have it. And I keep printouts of anything I'm actually using from the books to hand over if the GM has a question.
For example, when I rebuilt Kahel upon hitting level 2 I verified that I now owned the advanced race guide. Also brought a printout of the info on kitsune. If I were to make a new character using one of the now legal elemental races, I'd bring a printout of that race's info. But the usual GM already knows I do own the book. So I don't have to verify that again.
|
|
For example, when I rebuilt Kahel upon hitting level 2 I verified that I now owned the advanced race guide. Also brought a printout of the info on kitsune. If I were to make a new character using one of the now legal elemental races, I'd bring a printout of that race's info. But the usual GM already knows I do own the book. So I don't have to verify that again.
That's cute on a level 2 but it's significantly harder on a level 11, especially with a spell list.
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of
.. and the posted speed limit is 65. Most people are doing 75. 85 they'll start to pull you over.
|
|
True, but the player should already be prepared to show they have the books they used. If they aren't, then either pull out a pregen or play a different character they are prepared to verify?
It is entirely on the player to be ready with this verification. If the player keep track of what sources they used and didn't take the time to prep in advance for when they're asked for resource verification, I feel no sympathy for them. Then again, if I fail to do the same I am fully aware that I can be turned away.
And if you regularly GM for someone, do you really need to be shown the pdf/book every time they pick a new spell from Ultimate Magic if you already verified they owned it? Maybe ask that they bring a printout of the spells they are using to make referencing easier, but you already know they have Ultimate Magic.
But again, it IS on the player's head to be prepared for this before they even sit down at the table.
I equally don't understand the mindset of someone who is using some obscure rule but doesn't have said rule in a readily accessible form when they join the table.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
True, but the player should already be prepared to show they have the books they used. If they aren't, then either pull out a pregen or play a different character they are prepared to verify?
Or they walk and find a less persnickity dm.
Quite possibly out of the hobby.Then again, if I fail to do the same I am fully aware that I can be turned away.
You are a very organized person and only have a few characters at low level. I for example am a very disorganized person and have 27 of them. A print out of every source used for even 5 or 6 of them would put me well over my encumbrance limit. I have most of my sources thrown on a kindle. That signifigantly increases the amount of time it takes to look them up, because the alternative is showing up to events with a pack mule. (and they keep fertilizing the carpet , it's a health code thing)
I equally don't understand the mindset of someone who is using some obscure rule but doesn't have said rule in a readily accessible form when they join the table.
Its like a rookie cop pulling someone over for driving 66 miles an hour. Yes the sign says 66 and yes the book says on page 11,974 paragraph 6 subsection d-9 that the speed is 65 but practical reality and culture is not to do that for a lot of good reasons.
|
|
My characters are low level because work schedule prevents me from attending local PFS events. And only recently settled down enough that I have the time to do Play By Post and occasionally VTT format games. That said, I have been roleplaying since 1990. Of course I'm going to be prepared to follow the rules.
And of course I'm going to have a copy of anything I'm using on my character in a readily accessible form. Doesn't matter if the character's level 2, or 22. I do the same for homebrew games when possible. Especially if I'm using a book the GM approved, but doesn't own.
Yes it means my character stack gets ridiculously large over time. But then again, that's going to be the case no matter what.
Also, BNW, why do you assume experienced police only pull you over if traveling 20 miles over the speed limit. I've seen experienced officers stop people who are going even 1 mile over. They don't catch everyone, true. But there is no magic zone where it's illegal to speed but the police wont do anything.
|
|
Its like a rookie cop pulling someone over for driving 66 miles an hour. Yes the sign says 66 and yes the book says on page 11,974 paragraph 6 subsection d-9 that the speed is 65 but practical reality and culture is not to do that for a lot of good reasons.
Based on this I would think you don't know too much about cops (rookies or otherwise). You might want to stick to analogies you have in depth experience with.
I don't why you are so resistant to the thought of having good record keeping for your characters. I have level 10-12 characters myself and that's when keeping tract of every bit of information becomes even more important than ever. But hey that's me. Might be time for you to put yourself through an extensive self-audit to make sure things are 100% valid on your end.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And of course I'm going to have a copy of anything I'm using on my character in a readily accessible form. Doesn't matter if the character's level 2, or 22. I do the same for homebrew games when possible. Especially if I'm using a book the GM approved, but doesn't own.
Having your sources on an electronic device is both legal and pretty necessary after a certain point. Asking to see something because you don't know what it is is fine. Asking to see EVERYTHING is going to get you some very understandable eye rolls as the other players build dice structures to rival the tower of babble.
Yes it means my character stack gets ridiculously large over time. But then again, that's going to be the case no matter what.
Wait till you actually SEE that stack. Or worse, have to take it on public transport. Or load it onto the poor pack mule...
Also, BNW, why do you assume experienced police only pull you over if traveling 20 miles over the speed limit.
Many many many hours driving 10 miles over the limit. IE, in the slow lane.
I've seen experienced officers stop people who are going even 1 mile over. They don't catch everyone, true.
And would you WANT to spend time with that officer ? Because that's the difference. This is a voluntary association. Trying to follow every rule to a T every time isn't practical or expected really. It's a guideline for a game, not the disarming procedures for a nuclear weapon. You can ease up a little. Check like 1 thing and if they don't have that see if they have most of it.
Repeat after me, close enough for state work...
But there is no magic zone where it's illegal to speed but the police wont do anything.
That would be the thruway.
Or Arizona.|
|
Funny, I can produce proof with all the books I have, and that's with a character who boasts a full half page of AR.Not all of us shelled out the money for Herolab.
People seem to be forgetting that Hero Lab is a tool, and that it's possible to use other tools for the same task. There's no need for hero lab to do this. It just makes it easier. When writing down the latest feat, piece of equipment, or what not on your character sheet put a notation on what book it's in and what page number it's on. For example:
Spiffy Sandals (occult origins pg 40)
This tells you what book the item is in, and what page number it's on for faster referencing. Presto, now you can know quickly and easily what books you need to bring with to verify legality. You also know what pages the items are on so you can look the item up quickly. Sure it's going to make entries on your character sheet longer. But it gives you a means of quick reference.
Alternately, include at the end a bullet point listing of what book and page you got various things. Again, more book keeping as a player. But it's work you only do once for each item. Advantage here is the entire list is in one spot, and you can group items according to what books they are in.
My AD&D 2nd edition character sheets were sometimes 6 pages long if I was playing a caster. 2 to 3 pages long depending on other classes. This was especially true as I got more of the Complete supplement series. My Heroes Unlimited characters can be 10+ pages for a brand new character. All organized to keep relevant information together, and with book/page number notations so I can find stuff quickly. And you don't want to know how big BESM d20 character sheets can get.
If I was writing out my own character sheets for Pathfinder, I'd have notations on what book and page stuff is located. Especially if playing a caster and using spells from beyond the CRB.
|
|
Based on this I would think you don't know too much about cops (rookies or otherwise). You might want to stick to analogies you have in depth experience with.
Hundreds of games in game days, cons, mini cons, private houses, over 5 years in 6 states and i have NEVER seen or even heard of full audit for every resource a character uses being done.
If you are the one person being that persnickety about following the rules it's no big loss to miss out on what I'm sure would be a harrowing night of Accountants and Actuaries to go play pathfinder.
|
|
Having your sources on an electronic device is both legal and pretty necessary after a certain point. Asking to see something because you don't know what it is is fine. Asking to see EVERYTHING is going to get you some very understandable eye rolls as the other players build dice structures to rival the tower of babble.And of course I'm going to have a copy of anything I'm using on my character in a readily accessible form. Doesn't matter if the character's level 2, or 22. I do the same for homebrew games when possible. Especially if I'm using a book the GM approved, but doesn't own.
Here you go assuming I'm demanding an audit every time. Nope, not true. Just verifying that the character is legal in a quick way. Player has a boon for aasimar race, but doesn't own any of the books the race is detailed in? Then his character isn't gonna be legal till he has the book needed. This is the rules for the campaign. Show me the cover of the book (with watermark if it's a PDF) or a printout of the info that includes the watermark and I'm fine. Don't even need to read it unless something feels hinky. I just need to know you do own the book.
Yes it means my character stack gets ridiculously large over time. But then again, that's going to be the case no matter what.Wait till you actually SEE that stack. Or worse, have to take it on public transport. Or load it onto the poor pack mule...
Actually, I have one Rifts character who has a 200 page stack, printed back and front. Details on technomagic items the character has, has invented and builds to sell, gear, enemies made, allies made, you name it.
Also, BNW, why do you assume experienced police only pull you over if traveling 20 miles over the speed limit.Many many many hours driving 10 miles over the limit. IE, in the slow lane.
I've seen experienced officers stop people who are going even 1 mile over. They don't catch everyone, true.And would you WANT to spend time with that officer ? Because that's the difference. This is a voluntary association. Trying to follow every rule to a T every time isn't practical or expected really. It's a guideline for a game, not the disarming procedures for a nuclear weapon. You can ease up a little. Check like 1 thing and if they don't have that see if they have most of it.
Repeat after me, close enough for state work...
But there is no magic zone where it's illegal to speed but the police wont do anything.That would be the thruway.
Or Arizona.
*snorts*
I have literally seen people get a ticket for going 2 miles over the speed limit. Quite often in fact. One day I watched it happen 80 times in the space of 2 hours, all in the same stretch of road. There were 4 squad cars that rotated position in the speed trap. It was great fun to watch since there was a temp billboard that told people how fast they are going... with a police car right behind it.
Maybe where you live the police ignore enforcing the traffic laws. But where I live they don't. In fact, it's enforced most places. Heck, I got a speeding ticket once on a bicycle. So did my dad.
|
|
Based on this I would think you don't know too much about cops (rookies or otherwise). You might want to stick to analogies you have in depth experience with.
Hundreds of games in game days, cons, mini cons, private houses, over 5 years in 6 states and i have NEVER seen or even heard of full audit for every resource a character uses being done.
If you are the one person being that persnickety about following the rules it's no big loss to miss out on what I'm sure would be a harrowing night of Accountants and Actuaries to go play pathfinder.
again that term, you are assuming a full audit rather then just taking a moment at the start of the game to ask "are you using anything from the AR? Oh, then I need to verify your books". Doesn't even take a minute to verify a source book's legality. Especially if the player came prepared for this. Just quick glance, look for watermark, check name on watermark vs name on sign in sheet. If verifying lots of books the player used, it even speeds up as quickly recognize the watermark is the same each time.
Heck, doesn't even take 5 seconds to determine if the watermark is valid. You already know where it's located, don't you. You can do this during the few minutes before the game while people are showing up and pulling out their dice and character sheets. What else are you doing while everyone sets up? As the GM you probably showed up early to do your own final prep anyway. You know, pulling out your minis, getting maps and handouts ready, and so forth. Maybe going over the adventure one final time if you've never ran it before.
Even faster if they brought physical books.
|
|
To no one in particular:
If there's a rule no one follows or enforces, why does it exist? But as long as it does exist, please don't belittle someone if they choose to follow it or take umbrage with someone if they choose to enforce it.
To keep things to a dull roar.
You tell people to drive 55 you know they wind up doing 60. It's built into the assumptions. You tell every person to get every resource most people get most of them and it works out.
|
|
eople seem to be forgetting that Hero Lab is a tool, and that it's possible to use other tools for the same task. There's no need for hero lab to do this. It just makes it easier. When writing down the latest feat, piece of equipment, or what not on your character sheet put a notation on what book it's in and what page number it's on. For example:
Spiffy Sandals (occult origins pg 40)
Yes, that's a fake item on a non-existent page in Occult Origins. That's deliberate.
Well here's why..
because If i bought spiffy sandles i need to mark down that they Take up the boot slot, were bought on chronicle 26 for 12,000 gold and leave room for which chronicle sheet i sell them on. That's starting to run over into the "Wands" section on my its as it is, where the wand needs the amount paid the charges left when it was bought and when it kicked the bucket.
A spell list is the same thing, but it's an ever changing erased and re written version of the above. I know i usually memorize 2 Aquarius orbs but don't necessarily remember what book they came out of. If someone needs to see the particular wording on them googling d20pfsrd is faster and in my experience, more commonly used than going to the original source.
and most importantly, because nobody checks this stuff. They see i've got a geek bag thats practically a billboard for paizo stuffed with gods know what and a kindle thats half filled with paizo pdfs and the other half that's po...also pdfs. (eyeshift). Having to look it later is pretty far in the back of my mind.
|
|
To no one in particular:
If there's a rule no one follows or enforces, why does it exist? But as long as it does exist, please don't belittle someone if they choose to follow it or take umbrage with someone if they choose to enforce it.To keep things to a dull roar.
You tell people to drive 55 you know they wind up doing 60. It's built into the assumptions. You tell every person to get every resource most people get most of them and it works out.
I'm glad I don't live where ever you do. Speed limit of 55 doesn't mean "travel at 60mph is acceptable". It means that the speed limit is 55mph.
And there IS a reason why the player needs to own a pfs legal copy of an additional resource book they want to use, and bring a copy of that book or the watermarked pages being used to the game. Your GM may not have the same books as you. And there may not be internet access where the game is taking place, thus no access to the PSRD. As such players are required to bring with them the rules for anything outside of the CRB they are using.
Yes, it does encourage people to buy more books. But is that honestly a bad thing? It also means that the GM doesn't have to take it on blind faith that stuff from the 'splat' books works as the player claims.
When you run a homebrew game, do you let players use stuff you don't have the rules for? Because I certainly don't. Or do you say "PSRD is good enough"? Because again, I don't. The PSRD sometimes leaves stuff out in a bid to condense information into a reference document. Maybe this is just fluff information. But sometimes it's not fluff information, but things needed to adjudicate properly. The PSRD is a source reference document, not the full rules after all.
|
|
eople seem to be forgetting that Hero Lab is a tool, and that it's possible to use other tools for the same task. There's no need for hero lab to do this. It just makes it easier. When writing down the latest feat, piece of equipment, or what not on your character sheet put a notation on what book it's in and what page number it's on. For example:
Spiffy Sandals (occult origins pg 40)
Yes, that's a fake item on a non-existent page in Occult Origins. That's deliberate.Well here's why..
because If i bought spiffy sandles i need to mark down that they Take up the boot slot, were bought on chronicle 26 for 12,000 gold and leave room for which chronicle sheet i sell them on. That's starting to run over into the "Wands" section on my its as it is, where the wand needs the amount paid the charges left when it was bought and when it kicked the bucket.
A spell list is the same thing, but it's an ever changing erased and re written version of the above. I know i usually memorize 2 Aquarius orbs but don't necessarily remember what book they came out of. If someone needs to see the particular wording on them googling d20pfsrd is faster and in my experience, more commonly used than going to the original source.
You mean to tell me something like "UM pg 427" or "ARG pg 19" takes too much space? And that you can't figure out just by the name that footwear goes in your foot magic item slot
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
eople seem to be forgetting that Hero Lab is a tool, and that it's possible to use other tools for the same task. There's no need for hero lab to do this. It just makes it easier. When writing down the latest feat, piece of equipment, or what not on your character sheet put a notation on what book it's in and what page number it's on. For example:
Spiffy Sandals (occult origins pg 40)
Yes, that's a fake item on a non-existent page in Occult Origins. That's deliberate.Well here's why..
because If i bought spiffy sandles i need to mark down that they Take up the boot slot, were bought on chronicle 26 for 12,000 gold and leave room for which chronicle sheet i sell them on. That's starting to run over into the "Wands" section on my its as it is, where the wand needs the amount paid the charges left when it was bought and when it kicked the bucket.
A spell list is the same thing, but it's an ever changing erased and re written version of the above. I know i usually memorize 2 Aquarius orbs but don't necessarily remember what book they came out of.
So, BNW, what other rules of PFS do you think it's ok to let slide?
Can I fudge a attack roll, just add 10-15% to the roll, that's not so bad, is it?
What about prices paid for item, is it ok to take a 10% discount?
What if I add in a couple extra points of extra damage to my weapon damage rolls? what's the difference between 1d8 + 6 and 1d8 +10, I mean you're not going to audit me right?
And those are all examples of things that can be caught on an audit
Oo, yeah, those you are probably against, I mean integrity of the game and all.
The point is that Paizo as a company has done a wonderful job of making their product available online for free. It's not so outrageous to expect folks to buy their sources for PFS, how else can a GM function? I mean they can't be expected to own everything, or we wouldn't have many GM's.
Also, how fair is it for me to follow the own it to use it rules, but GM's let people just bring anything to the table?
I agree with you alot, but not on this one.....
|
|
You mean to tell me something like "UM pg 427" or "ARG pg 19" takes too much space?
You try writing with paws.
And that you can't figure out just by the name that footwear goes in your foot magic item slot
For spiffy sandles it's pretty easy but i can never remember if monks robes is body or chest. It's also an organizational thing: i write all the slots down so I know which ones i have open to go shopping for.
|
|
Tried running a PBP game for pathfinder society (Mount Silver Collection if you're curious), but it fell through cause I only got 4 people interested, and 2 of them weren't willing to verify resources. I gave the players my email address, and asked them to send me either a picture of the AR books they use if it's physical, or a screen shot of their PDF opened to the inside cover so I can verify the watermark. I also asked them to send a scan of their chronicles, which I intended to use for an quick audit then delete from my computer. Same with the pictures or screenshots sent. Quick verification, then deleted.
Two of the players followed through, submitting proof they owned the books their using and their chronicles. The other two didn't submit ownership verification, one of those two did submit his chronicles. Both of these players were using Hero Lab, as evidenced by the included blurb at the bottom of their character sheets.
Now, I like hero lab. And the fact they outputted their stat block from hero lab made it easy for me to find info on their character sheets. You know, because I'm familiar with how it arranges things.
So tell me BNW, should I have let these two people play? Keep in mind, one of them didn't submit any chronicles. For all I know he made the character just for the scenario I was going to run, and gave me the PFS number for a different character. Neither submitted proof they owned any of the resources they used.
So, was I right to refuse them a seat at the table, or do you BNW think I should have let them play regardless?
|
|
So, BNW, what other rules of PFS do you think it's ok to let slide?
It is not a rule that you have to check for ownership of every piece of every characters equipment, feat, spells,
Every quality control inspection has limits. Something like 4% of cargo containers get searched with so much as an x ray. OSHA shows up one day a year if that. Don't get me started on what % of beef actually has an inspector look at it... and those are all things that will mess up your life a lot more than a role playing game.
You inspect what you can and the fear of getting caught keeps the system to a dull roar. Life goes on.
how else can a GM function?
You don't know what something does is a good reason to ask to see it.
Can I fudge a attack roll, just add 10-15% to the roll, that's not so bad, is it?
I'm pretty sure most people are missing or adding a +1 somewhere or something. It happens.
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
That's cute on a level 2 but it's significantly harder on a level 11, especially with a spell list.
I have a level 4 character that is more complicated in terms of paperwork than any of your level 11 characters or anyone's for that matter. Its not that hard to document that stuff. Admittedly, I've only documented 57 out of my triple digit abilities but still that includes the more important abilities.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So tell me BNW, should I have let these two people play? Keep in mind, one of them didn't submit any chronicles. For all I know he made the character just for the scenario I was going to run, and gave me the PFS number for a different character. Neither submitted proof they owned any of the resources they used.So, was I right to refuse them a seat at the table, or do you BNW think I should have let them play regardless?
I think you should have let them play.
I think you, and all of the players would have had a better time if you'd played anyway and it would have been a better reflection on pfs. If people know PFS as that game where you spend all your time doing paperwork and then never get to play they're going to get quickly frustrated with it and quit. Someone cheating (by.. not having played or something? To get 500 free gold?) isn't good for the game either but i don't think it's nearly as bad for the game as canceling. If someone wanted to cheat submiting fake chronicle sheets doesn't take that much longer than submitting real ones (you can spot the fakes , they're the ones filled out correctly)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, your stance is that I was wrong and should have let them play? Then maybe I should explain some stuff I learned from these two players after I announced I was going to have to call off the game unless more people joined.
First of all, neither of them had a PFS legal copy of the books they used. The one who sent me his chronicles did have copies of the books, sent to him from a friend that had bought the pdf. As such the watermark would have clearly shown he didn't own the books he used. That's why he didn't submit them. He knew using those books in his character creation was violating PFS rules. He admitted to this when I apologized about how since there were only 2 legal players at the table I had to call it off. He then went on to say "It's not like it's a big deal. I've been using these books since they were emailed to me and nobody's bothered checking before."
The one who didn't send me his chronicles admitted he didn't even have a non-pfs legal copy of the books. His argument over why his character was legal was "I bought all the data packages for hero lab. I don't need to buy the books separately, I already have all the rules from them." And when I got curious and tried entering his character ID number as if reporting the completed game, the name that popped up was a level 3 monk. His character submitted for the session was a level 7 magus.
Do you still stand by the assertion that I should have just let them play
|
|
I have a level 4 character that is more complicated in terms of paperwork than any of your level 11 characters or anyone's for that matter. Its not that hard to document that stuff. Admittedly, I've only documented 57 out of my triple digit abilities but still that includes the more important abilities.
That's cute on a level 2 but it's significantly harder on a level 11, especially with a spell list.
I'm not saying it can't be done its just seriously increasing the Porcupines in the aspen to fun ratio.
|
|
"I bought all the data packages for hero lab. I don't need to buy the books separately, I already have all the rules from them."
A pretty common misconception.
And when I got curious and tried entering his character ID number as if reporting the completed game, the name that popped up was a level 3 monk. His character submitted for the session was a level 7 magus.
Yeah, people put the wrong pfs number, and the wrong -X's on a lot of character sheets. He really only would have ruined the event if he's actually been playing as the level 3 monk during the game, which gets pretty obvious pretty fast. (when you see a monk hit something...) If there's some machavelian plot where you can benefit from having that chronicle on a higher level character i don't know what it is.
Do you still stand by the assertion that I should have just let them play
I'm not going to say you were wrong but I would have played rather than cancel? Why? Because you didn't know they were screwing up that badly and you've got another gamer that did by stuff that may STOP buying stuff because they don't get to play.
|
|
"I bought all the data packages for hero lab. I don't need to buy the books separately, I already have all the rules from them."A pretty common misconception.
And when I got curious and tried entering his character ID number as if reporting the completed game, the name that popped up was a level 3 monk. His character submitted for the session was a level 7 magus.Yeah, people put the wrong pfs number, and the wrong -X's on a lot of character sheets. He really only would have ruined the event if he's actually been playing as the level 3 monk during the game, which gets pretty obvious pretty fast. (when you see a monk hit something...) If there's some machavelian plot where you can benefit from having that chronicle on a higher level character i don't know what it is.
The character submitted put it firmly in the 6-7 tier. Which means if the chronicle was applied to the character number I was given, he'd have been getting the high tier rewards with a level 3 character who didn't actually play the adventure. When I looked over his profile I didn't see any magus characters registered, let alone a level 7 one. So odds of him making the character specifically for the scenario were pretty dang high. I then did a full audit of the magus character, and found it was a 25 point build. Or in other words, he was violating more then one PFS rule.
Hadn't looked too closely at his character yet till then because I was still going over the two people who did submit resource verification. namely I was reading over the rules for their classes since I'm unfamiliar with investigators and gunslingers.
Do you still stand by the assertion that I should have just let them playI'm not going to say you were wrong but I would have played rather than cancel? Why? Because you didn't know they were screwing up that badly and you've got another gamer that did by stuff that may STOP buying stuff because they don't get to play.
The two legal players actually supported my decision and said they'd be interested if I tried again. Thinking of running a few levels of Emerald Spire, if I do I'll likely ask them if they're still interested.
Also note, the guy using his friend's PDFs, his friend according to him isn't in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. His friend GM's their home campaign and emails everyone in that campaign books as he buys them. Which admittedly I have no problem with. In the home campaign I was in for a while I shared my copy of Occult Adventures with everyone else, and the GM sent everyone copies of Advanced Race Guide, Advanced Players Guide (once he bought it), Ultimate Magic and Unchained. Even so, for PFS play I'm not about to try using a book if it's not PFS legal.
Contributor
|
And when I got curious and tried entering his character ID number as if reporting the completed game, the name that popped up was a level 3 monk. His character submitted for the session was a level 7 magus.Yeah, people put the wrong pfs number, and the wrong -X's on a lot of character sheets. He really only would have ruined the event if he's actually been playing as the level 3 monk during the game, which gets pretty obvious pretty fast. (when you see a monk hit something...) If there's some machavelian plot where you can benefit from having that chronicle on a higher level character i don't know what it is.
Getting subtier 6-7 gold on a level 3 character seems pretty nice. I don't even get that much gold from GMing it. ^_^
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can't believe everyone's attacking BigNorseWolf over this. I'm totally on his side.
Let's be clear: Like BNW, I have over 20 PCs in PFS. I own the resources for every detail that I used in creating each of them. And I bring them all to game days. If I use a spell, feat, trait, etc that a GM doesn't know, I can pull up the exact book on my tablet and show it to them at the appropriate time, as I'm sure BNW can, too. That's the point of the rule.
But asking me to list every book for a specific PC up front? On a level 9 caster, that would result in me sitting there for 10 minutes going "Is that spell in Ultimate Magic or Ultimate Combat? Was that one from Inner Sea Magic?" Heck, even on my level 2 witch, I'd have to try and remember if the rabbit familiar was published in the Familiar Folio or Animal Archive, both of which I have with me.
Not to mention that opening each pdf takes 30-40 seconds on my crappy tablet, even if I do know what book it's from. So auditing me that way would take 5-10 minutes for most of my characters. Now do that for all 6 players at the table. Would you rather spend that half hour playing or auditing?
And Kahel keeps saying he plays with the same people regularly, so those audits aren't necessary more than once per PC. That's fine in your situation.
I play at a weekly game at a game store, where we have 2-3 tables most weeks. We have probably 8-10 people who are there most weeks, and another 20 who show up once a month or more. Probably a third of us are old timers with 20+ PCs and 10+ books used in the creation of each one. I do NOT play with the same PCs regularly, even when I do play with the same players. And that's not to mention the 4-6 conventions I go to annually.
And like BNW, I've been playing PFS for over 4 years, in 5 different states (and I'm not even counting GenCon for Indiana), not to mention playing PBP for almost a year now, and nobody's ever done this type of full audit before. So no, I'm not going to suddenly add a ton of paperwork to prep just in case of this type of audit.
Heck, the only time owning a book ever came up at a table where I was playing, was shortly after Ultimate Magic was published, when a player showed up with a magus PC, and neither the player or GM knew how it worked. The GM asked to see the book, and the player didn't have it on her. She had to go to the next table over to get the book from her mother, as the family did own it, but they were technically breaking the rule by sharing the book while playing at different tables.
As I said, if someone asks about a specific feat, spell, ability, etc, I can produce that reference pretty quickly (slow tablet not withstanding). I own the books legally, so Paizo got their money, and I can show them to the GM for reference, so I'm following both the spirit and letter of the rules. But auditing EVERY book at the start of the session would just be an unnecessary waste of time.
And I think that's BNW's point.
|
|
]
The character submitted put it firmly in the 6-7 tier.
AH . Ok. silver mount the 3-7 not silver something the quest (its a tech scenario so one of the few i haven't played) . I misunderstood something there.
Which means if the chronicle was applied to the character number I was given, he'd have been getting the high tier rewards with a level 3 character who didn't actually play the adventure.
Or he gave you the wrong character number. It happens. An in depth audit would show the error if he did that (since you can no longer get the level 67 rewards on a 3-4 character) On the one hand few people do in depth audits, on the other hand if he was looking to cheat changing a -2 to a -3 isn't that hard.
When I looked over his profile I didn't see any magus characters registered, let alone a level 7 one.
or he didn't register the character. happens a lot.
The two legal players actually supported my decision and said they'd be interested if I tried again. Thinking of running a few levels of Emerald Spire, if I do I'll likely ask them if they're still interested.
If you can get games good luck. If you're requiring scanned chronicles on a level 7 character i think that sounds like more office work than some folks would be interested in and a sign of vastly different playstyles than what some people area used to.
|
|
A little prep saves a lot of time. Instead of having to open a pdf, show it, then open a new one I try to have the inside cover printed so I can just hand that over if someone I don't know is GMing. And instead of trying to remember where every spell, feat, and what not came from I just print out that page and keep it with the character. If the GM doesn't ask for verification, fine. But I'm ready if/when it's asked for.
Maybe for running a Play By Post game I'm too paranoid. But I've dealt with many cheaters in that format. "I rolled my own dice, no really! Yeah I legitimately rolled an eighteen six times in a row" for example. Yes, it's possible. And I know someone who's done just that while everyone's watching, much to the group's astonishment. But it's not bloody likely to happen. Even rolling three 18's on 3d6 is rare enough to make me raise a suspicious eyebrow. So especially for a PbP game I'm going to do an audit, and I'm up front about that. It's nothing personal, I just want to know what everyone's bringing to the table and to double check people's math. if it catches anything hinky, well, that's why I'm doing this.
At the very least I know what rules to read up on.
At a convention I'm probably not going to audit you unless something feels fishy. For one thing, we don't have the time. But I will most likely ask to verify your resources used unless I'm running a pregen module like We Be Goblins. Wont itemize everything, but if you're playing a psychic I definitely want to see that you do own Occult Adventures. Which is something players should be ready for to begin with. And I'll also expect you to have on hand information on the weird stuff you're doing. You know, because I'll need to know the rules for that weird stuff and may not have the books needed. It's not like I have that many of the Player Companion books. I'm also missing most of the campaign books. Heck, even the books I do own, I haven't memorized them. Or even read all of them.
Had one person send me a set of screen shots of his My Downloads page for verification. Which I was happy to accept since it clearly showed the same name as what he signed in with to the pbp game, and it clearly showed the books he was using.
|
|
If you can get games good luck. If you're requiring scanned chronicles on a level 7 character i think that sounds like more office work than some folks would be interested in and a sign of vastly different playstyles than what some people area used to.
Not as much office work as you think. Okay, yeah it was tedious scanning the chronicles for Kahel and she's only level 4 (almost 5). Higher levels would be more tedious still. But now that it's done once, I have the chronicles saved on a usb chip so I can quickly email them off for an audit if needed while doing a PBP game. I scanned all her chronicles first thing when I decided to apply for one of the Sky Key Solution tables.
Anyone serious about doing play-by-post for PFS I would think already has done that prep work in advance. If not, why? After all, you'd only have to scan the chronicles once each. And since the GMs have to email you your chronicle at the end of the scenario, just print it off and keep the pdf file as well.
No, what's annoying is having to print off the chronicle sheet, fill it out, then scan the filled in sheet so you can get people their chronicles. When I'm filling out a PbP chronicle for a scenario I ran I print off the blank sheet, cross off any items/boons I need to cross off, initial and sign it, then scan the initialed/signed sheet before filling in fields like player name, character name, character number, earned gold, earned prestige, and the like using Adobe Acrobat's fill & sign feature.
Course, that does mean I may have to print 2 copies of the chronicle. One that'll have stuff crossed off or harmful boons awarded, the other for my GM credit.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, what's annoying is having to print off the chronicle sheet, fill it out, then scan the filled in sheet so you can get people their chronicles. When I'm filling out a PbP chronicle for a scenario I ran I print off the blank sheet, cross off any items/boons I need to cross off, initial and sign it, then scan the initialed/signed sheet before filling in fields like player name, character name, character number, earned gold, earned prestige, and the like using Adobe Acrobat's fill & sign feature.
Foxit has a free pdf reader that can let you do that electronically.
Open the pdf in foxit
Go to file. Print
Change printer to foxit PDF printer
Print the last page
Name it AttackOfTheMuffinsChron for attack of the muffins scenario
Open the new file
Hit the comment tab. Fill in everything that's the same for everyone. The pen is only in red, but who cares.
Save AS player
Save as player 2
Save as player 3....
Finishing editing.
Attach them all to the big email and send out
My only problem with foxit is that for some reason it refuses to save anything... until you mark it or comment on it at all. Then it saves fine.
|
|
And again, how many PCs do you have?
I've been playing PBP for less than a year, and only done about 10 sessions so far. But I've played 6 or 7 different PCs in PBP. Just having to enter the stats into the computer was annoying. I do all my character sheets old school with a paper and pencil. Having to scan all the chronicles for my level 5 or 6 PCs with my slow printer/scanner would have taken an hour for each PC. Luckily, nobody asked me to do that.
I'd probably agree to do it if requested, and I really wanted to play the session, but again, I play Pathfinder to play a game, not waste time on paperwork.
|
|
When I ran We Be Goblins, only 3 people stuck around. Then RL messed things up and someone dropped out when they were 2/3 of the way through. For this last one, had 4 players who were interested. I've got a 6 person group I'm running through Crypt of the Everflame, and a 5 person group I'm running through Wounded Wisp. Both are doing okay, although posting rates are down to once a week.
On the other hand, I've had games where I get far too many players as well. Biggest problem I've had recently is time (on my end) and people trying to pull a fast one. My last attempt at running Emerald Spire 1 as a PFS game was during season 7. I had 6 players, all of whom were wanting to play stuff like an aasimar or other boon required races, but nobody was willing to submit proof they had the boon. Even though they knew it was a PFS game.
Since they weren't willing to do anything besides their boon required races I ended up making it a non-PFS game while keeping it at 20 point buy. Only to have half of them stop posting 3 weeks after things finally kicked off, and the rest constantly complain because I wasn't allowing 30 point builds. Oh, and refusing to post in-character because they weren't allowed a 30 point build. When the three who vanished finally decided to check back in, the 3 who were whining about not being 30 point builds decided to spam the game thread with five hundred posts of "... YOU SUCK! DIE!" each.
At which point one of the 3 who had vanished demanded that he be allowed to add the Half Dragon, Half Celestial, and Half Fiend templates to his aasimar barbarian or he'd quit the game and blacklist me among all his friends.
I finally gave that one up as a lost cause.
It's a fact of life that most PbP games die due to players losing interest, real life events occurring, or GM getting overwhelmed. GM getting overwhelmed seems to happen most often with freeform games.