Can Patron spells be researched if you attain levels in a PRC that is not Witch?
Technically, it's spell research and shouldn't be a problem, as you already have the patron. However, I can see a lot of arguments for no as well.
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Well Spell Research is already something determined by your GM. I would be fine if it, and if you're GM is fine, you're good to go.
I would say as long as you don't try to change the spell level.
Here on the boards we call this a "bribe your DM with Pizza and Beer question"
@MageHunter: As a DM I can say firsthand that these forms of edible tribute are powerful persuaders ;)
I am the DM. I'm trying to prevent disgruntled players as a unit. :) I would argue that you can't research non-witch spells from patrons that are not your own without finding a witch who does have that patron.
However, there's still a problem here, which is what I like to think of as the Pathfinder Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue default. There isn't a witch under every rock, and therefore, spell selection kind of sucks. The easiest way I found around this was to take Leadership for your witch, where your cohort is a wizard, and you take all the spells off his list that cross over.
This can, however, get pretty abusive fairly quickly.
Are you referring to Spell Research? If so, my quick reading of the text doesn't seem to exclude PCs researching a witch's patron spells. How the PC chooses to flavor the spell research is another thing, but that's outside the RAW and is up to the player's creativity :) So, personally, as a DM, I would not have a problem with it - I feel it is there in the RAW.
You could just make sure it takes a real investment. I don't think it's game breaking, and just doing patron spells seems perfectly reasonable. You can find inspiration from unique places for spells.
Not too sure on that one. A witch with Divine Power, one level of fighter and a ton of Eldritch Knight levels is a force to be reckoned with.
Oddly, there is a second issue. Flavor text of Witch vs. other classes. See Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue above. Where can witches actually be found? How do you find a bunch of reclusively weird characters who live in covens or are generally considered to be frightening by the peasantry?
I've reviewed this a lot, and unless your PC lives in Irrisen, your chances of finding a witch with a different patron are somewhat lower than the chance that your DM will suddenly give you a +5 item out of the blue. I have no idea how this class is actually supposed to function without the GM socially tweaking the game to suit the player, which shouldn't really happen.
Even Irrisen might have a limited selection of Patrons -- considering the repressive government run by Winter Witches, anyone who has the wrong Patron might be automatically under suspicion.
Now Unchained Summoner has an interesting archetype designed to be able to infiltrate repressive (specifically Devil-enchained) areas without being Lawful Evil: the Devil Imposter. It would be cool to have something like this for Witches, although unfortunately Patrons are not at all fleshed out the way Domains, Mysteries, and even Inquisitionsare -- they are just lists of bonus spells. (Note that in some cases the spells are already on the Witch spell list, reducing research to that needed to get a spell that is already on your list but that you just can't find.)
Research doesn't have to mean finding someone who already knows the spell, and usually doesn't IMO. Buying books on magical theory, paying for unique items, conducting tests and so forth are more what you'd spend the money for spell research on.
Can Patron spells be researched if you attain levels in a PRC that is not Witch?
Technically, it's spell research and shouldn't be a problem, as you already have the patron. However, I can see a lot of arguments for no as well.
I would say no. Patron spells are an addition to your class list that is granted by your Patron. Patron only grants spells when you advance in the witch class level.
I am extremely reluctant to allow any class to research outside it's class list. Not totally, but it's a hard sell.
Can Patron spells be researched if you attain levels in a PRC that is not Witch?
Technically, it's spell research and shouldn't be a problem, as you already have the patron. However, I can see a lot of arguments for no as well.
I would say no. Patron spells are an addition to your class list that is granted by your Patron. Patron only grants spells when you advance in the witch class level.
I am extremely reluctant to allow any class to research outside it's class list. Not totally, but it's a hard sell.
Except that any witch with a similar patron could share the spell with your familiar.
Understand that my feelings are "This class was written by people who, while understanding what they were going for, really don't understand the social dynamic of their own flavor text."
It's nice to see a differing opinion, that's for sure. I'm frustrated by this class because the text for it seems to be it's own worst enemy, and this doesn't seem to be prevalent for any other class in the game.
Again, part of the problem is "finding other witches", when most societies aren't particularly comfortable with witches, or not well disposed to them.
Can Patron spells be researched if you attain levels in a PRC that is not Witch?
Technically, it's spell research and shouldn't be a problem, as you already have the patron. However, I can see a lot of arguments for no as well.
I would say no. Patron spells are an addition to your class list that is granted by your Patron. Patron only grants spells when you advance in the witch class level.
I am extremely reluctant to allow any class to research outside it's class list. Not totally, but it's a hard sell.
Except that any witch with a similar patron could share the spell with your familiar.
Disagree. "At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch's patron adds new spells to a witch's list of spells known. "
If you haven't added it to your spells known (and presumptively to your spell list), it's not on your spell list and your familiar can't learn it. Only witch levels give this benefit, so no.
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Oddly, there is a second issue. Flavor text of Witch vs. other classes. See Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue above. Where can witches actually be found? How do you find a bunch of reclusively weird characters who live in covens or are generally considered to be frightening by the peasantry?
I've reviewed this a lot, and unless your PC lives in Irrisen, your chances of finding a witch with a different patron are somewhat lower than the chance that your DM will suddenly give you a +5 item out of the blue. I have no idea how this class is actually supposed to function without the GM socially tweaking the game to suit the player, which shouldn't really happen.
"While many witches are recluses, living on the edge of civilization, some live within society, openly or in hiding."
That is taken directly from the Advanced Players Guide. Some witches live within society, openly. Which means if you want your players to find them, they can find them and be completely within the rules to do so.
Also, if you don't want your players to find them, you can make them not find any. You are the GM, so you can rule it whichever (witch-ever?) way you want.
That's the thing I'm trying to get at. Openly is probably rare, and Witches don't have the skill set to find the ones that are in hiding. That skill set belongs to rogues, investigators, etc. If Witches had those skills, and or an organization to belong to that approximates a wizard's guild, a lot of this burden would be lifted, but the flavor text really doesn't seem to support that.
"Openly" is as rare or as common as you want to make it. You are the GM, therefor any rule that can have different interpretations is whatever the GM says it is. If you, Balabanto, want them to be rare, then they are rare. If Balabanto wants them to openly have stores on main street, then they do.
So you need to choose if you want witches to be easy to find or if you want disgruntled players. It is completely in your hands.