Your favorite thing that people hate


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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After a lot of thought, my favourite thing that other people hate is my characters making decisions that make the rest of the party put their heads in their hands and say "jesus f*ing christ"

My friends are the ones that hate it =P

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've had fun using "dump stats" as motivation for fun roleplaying.

Example the 1st:

In Kingmaker, I had a dragon-scourged dwarf barbarian 1/magus 6 with a Charisma of 6 (point buy, did not invest any points in Charisma, applied racial penalty). He figured out how to use Diplomacy checks as agro. He wasn't mean or gross or smelly, he was just really really good at saying the wrong thing.

Example the 2nd:

In our 5th Edition World Serpent Inn game, my half-elf street urchin rogue parkour specialist has an Intelligence of 8 (I could have put his mental stats as 10 14 10 or 8 14 12, and chose 8 14 12 because it's more interesting). Not super low, but below average enough that I can exploit it. I play him as "street smart" which means he's totally ignorant about anything else requiring actual real smarts. And the way skills work in 5th Edition, I actually have more skills (2 from background, 4 from class, and 2 from race). So I'm able to use my min-maxing to make my character interesting. Which is fun.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm actually very fond of prepared casters. At least spellbook variants, prepared Divine Casters have it *too* good.
But I do like the Vancian system of preparing spells and tricks - it really helps the flavour of casting these spells in a short time frame, while in combat. I like all the logistics of it, the thought I have to put in, and figuring out whether or not I want to use a specific spell now or save it.

Though, as far as spontaneous casters go, I really love both the Arcanist and especially the Occultist.

Occultist's spellcasting and implement system are powerful and satisfying, and I wish spellcasting in general followed their progression more.

Thinking about it, I'm going to have to investigate Spheres of Power.

Liberty's Edge

Vidmaster7 wrote:
i was never on board with touch attacks guns but they are totes not better then bows and crossbows (well maybe crossbows) but its such and investment to use them i think they should of just gave them higher damage dice to make up for all the negatives and been done with it

They kind of are actually. Touch AC is incredibly easier to hit than regular AC. Their actually two APs where gunslingers should be banned as it's a turkey shoot for a Gunslinger. Rise of the runelords and Giantslayer. At the very least not without major changes to the enocunters. sure a Dm can taget the gunslinger main weapon. Yet like other melee style character. The smart player carries a backup. So when the fanbase tells you not to implement the rules as they are. Then get ignored making one aspect of the game unusable for some of the fans. I can see why people would be unhappy. Given they were told plenty of time before the rules went to print.

Liberty's Edge

In my games spells can and will do damage to their surroundings. Player sometimes forget how damaging their spells can be outside a dungeon. So if the group is staying at a inn, ambushed and a arcane caster casually tosses a fireball it's going to leave a whole in the wall. Or the the very least do damage. I know it's not something everyone enjoys.


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Things that I am in favor of in my games:

Paladins. Psions.

Low-magic, magical realism, or similar settings.

Drow player characters.

Coddling players who want coddled.

Using whatever s~##ty piece of paper I have on hand for a character sheet instead of using something sensible.

Sacrificing the rules and balance of the game for a good joke or a good thematic moment.

If people are feeling overshadowed, etc., make them talk about their emotions instead of trying to re-balance the game.

Personal arcs for individual PCs.

Arbitrary leveling at GM's discretion.

(I pretty much raised my current batch of players in the ways of PF, so I got a small period of time of having my way).


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I'm actually fine with magic being superior to physical stuff, but only if every PC has magic and NPCs are the ones limited to physical stuff.


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I'm ok with magic > not-magic in the general sense, but I dislike Magical classes > not magical classes.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
memorax wrote:
In my games spells can and will do damage to their surroundings. Player sometimes forget how damaging their spells can be outside a dungeon. So if the group is staying at a inn, ambushed and a arcane caster casually tosses a fireball it's going to leave a whole in the wall. Or the the very least do damage. I know it's not something everyone enjoys.

my party regularly start forest fires by accident.

they don't usually get much time to loot, and it's always their own fault.

Dark Archive

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Bandw2 wrote:
memorax wrote:
In my games spells can and will do damage to their surroundings. Player sometimes forget how damaging their spells can be outside a dungeon. So if the group is staying at a inn, ambushed and a arcane caster casually tosses a fireball it's going to leave a whole in the wall. Or the the very least do damage. I know it's not something everyone enjoys.

my party regularly start forest fires by accident.

they don't usually get much time to loot, and it's always their own fault.

Yeah, tossed a fireball in a forest once. Started a forest fire. And in dungeons, casters should be wary of tossing their damage spells around too. Or even their non-damage spells.

Wizard: "I cast Sleep centered on that ogre!"
GM: "The one that just charged into your group? Okay, it affects *rolls dice* seven hit dice worth of creatures. Everyone make will saves."

or

Wizard: "The enemy is 40 feet away, we're safe from the fireball."
GM: And the hallway is five feet wide with a dead end ten feet behind your target. Roll reflex saves please. The hallway has channeled the blast back towards you.

or

Wizard: "YES! They're coming down the hall single file. I got this, I cast Lightning Bolt!"
GM: The bolt arcs down the hall, electrocuting the orcs. It then strikes a wall and bounces back in your direction. Please make reflex saves."


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
memorax wrote:
In my games spells can and will do damage to their surroundings. Player sometimes forget how damaging their spells can be outside a dungeon. So if the group is staying at a inn, ambushed and a arcane caster casually tosses a fireball it's going to leave a whole in the wall. Or the the very least do damage. I know it's not something everyone enjoys.

my party regularly start forest fires by accident.

they don't usually get much time to loot, and it's always their own fault.

Yeah, tossed a fireball in a forest once. Started a forest fire. And in dungeons, casters should be wary of tossing their damage spells around too. Or even their non-damage spells.

Wizard: "I cast Sleep centered on that ogre!"
GM: "The one that just charged into your group? Okay, it affects *rolls dice* seven hit dice worth of creatures. Everyone make will saves."

or

Wizard: "The enemy is 40 feet away, we're safe from the fireball."
GM: And the hallway is five feet wide with a dead end ten feet behind your target. Roll reflex saves please. The hallway has channeled the blast back towards you.

or

Wizard: "YES! They're coming down the hall single file. I got this, I cast Lightning Bolt!"
GM: The bolt arcs down the hall, electrocuting the orcs. It then strikes a wall and bounces back in your direction. Please make reflex saves."

I suppose even casters are helpless when the GM cheats against them.


MrCharisma wrote:

Paladins. There's so much hate on the boards but they're seriously so good. I really don't understand the hate.

Also I agree with Badbird too, multiclassing is fun. I put a 1-level martial dip on almost all my 6/9 casters (BADWRONGFUN!)

Gajolob Gorum Tell me more of these powerful Table-magics? Are they something a Half-Orc Paladin could aspire to?

Paladin hate is generally centered around the code, not the mechanics. Mechanically paladins are great. Charisma to saves is amazing.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

Paladins. There's so much hate on the boards but they're seriously so good. I really don't understand the hate.

Also I agree with Badbird too, multiclassing is fun. I put a 1-level martial dip on almost all my 6/9 casters (BADWRONGFUN!)

Gajolob Gorum Tell me more of these powerful Table-magics? Are they something a Half-Orc Paladin could aspire to?

Paladin hate is generally centered around the code, not the mechanics. Mechanically paladins are great. Charisma to saves is amazing.

Yeah so I see. I feel like I've had it wrong this whole time ... people don't hate Paladins, they hate GMs who hate Paladins.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lemmy Z wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
memorax wrote:
In my games spells can and will do damage to their surroundings. Player sometimes forget how damaging their spells can be outside a dungeon. So if the group is staying at a inn, ambushed and a arcane caster casually tosses a fireball it's going to leave a whole in the wall. Or the the very least do damage. I know it's not something everyone enjoys.

my party regularly start forest fires by accident.

they don't usually get much time to loot, and it's always their own fault.

Yeah, tossed a fireball in a forest once. Started a forest fire. And in dungeons, casters should be wary of tossing their damage spells around too. Or even their non-damage spells.

Wizard: "I cast Sleep centered on that ogre!"
GM: "The one that just charged into your group? Okay, it affects *rolls dice* seven hit dice worth of creatures. Everyone make will saves."

or

Wizard: "The enemy is 40 feet away, we're safe from the fireball."
GM: And the hallway is five feet wide with a dead end ten feet behind your target. Roll reflex saves please. The hallway has channeled the blast back towards you.

or

Wizard: "YES! They're coming down the hall single file. I got this, I cast Lightning Bolt!"
GM: The bolt arcs down the hall, electrocuting the orcs. It then strikes a wall and bounces back in your direction. Please make reflex saves."

I suppose even casters are helpless when the GM cheats against them.

Seriously. None of those are supported anywhere in the rules.

Dark Archive

Lemmy Z wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
memorax wrote:
In my games spells can and will do damage to their surroundings. Player sometimes forget how damaging their spells can be outside a dungeon. So if the group is staying at a inn, ambushed and a arcane caster casually tosses a fireball it's going to leave a whole in the wall. Or the the very least do damage. I know it's not something everyone enjoys.

my party regularly start forest fires by accident.

they don't usually get much time to loot, and it's always their own fault.

Yeah, tossed a fireball in a forest once. Started a forest fire. And in dungeons, casters should be wary of tossing their damage spells around too. Or even their non-damage spells.

Wizard: "I cast Sleep centered on that ogre!"
GM: "The one that just charged into your group? Okay, it affects *rolls dice* seven hit dice worth of creatures. Everyone make will saves."

or

Wizard: "The enemy is 40 feet away, we're safe from the fireball."
GM: And the hallway is five feet wide with a dead end ten feet behind your target. Roll reflex saves please. The hallway has channeled the blast back towards you.

or

Wizard: "YES! They're coming down the hall single file. I got this, I cast Lightning Bolt!"
GM: The bolt arcs down the hall, electrocuting the orcs. It then strikes a wall and bounces back in your direction. Please make reflex saves."

I suppose even casters are helpless when the GM cheats against them.

Cheats? How do you figure? I'll have maps of any dungeon I'm running the players through. Fireball has a 30 foot radius blast, and will ALWAYS affect the same amount of space. Cast it in a narrow hall, and it'll affect a greater range in the unblocked directions. If I'm saying the hall dead ends, it's because it does in fact have a dead end. Maybe the party can't see it due to how dark it is. Or maybe they do and the player got careless. Either way, I'm going to calculate how far the back blast goes. And if the party is in that range, they need to make a save.

As of 3.5 (haven't checked the PF rules for the spell yet) lightning bolt spells will bounce back if they hit a wall. And will still travel the full total distance. So if the party is within the remaining range of the reflected lightning bolt, they had to make saves.

And sleep targets an area, affecting the lowest hit die creatures first. You cast it on an ogre that just charged into melee with half the party, then it's quite likely to affect the party instead of the ogre. Especially if the party is level 1. Been like that since at least 2nd edition D&D. Know how many times my half-elf fighter mage was the only one unaffected by his sleep spell?

Spell positioning IS a thing. Careless positioning of spells can, and does affect the party. I've had my fighters entangled due to a careless druid too often to count. And had my dual wielding ranger fall flat on their butt too often because some overzealous mage cast Grease with me in the area of effect too.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

ikr, at least fireball mentions it lights flammables on fire and forests tend to have a lot of dried leaves.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Wizard: "I cast Sleep centered on that ogre!"

GM: "The one that just charged into your group? Okay, it affects *rolls dice* seven hit dice worth of creatures. Everyone make will saves."

Heh, Hilarious!

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Wizard: "The enemy is 40 feet away, we're safe from the fireball."

GM: And the hallway is five feet wide with a dead end ten feet behind your target. Roll reflex saves please. The hallway has channeled the blast back towards you.

Not RAW, but I kind of love this one, keeps the players thinking like a real world!

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Wizard: "YES! They're coming down the hall single file. I got this, I cast Lightning Bolt!"

GM: The bolt arcs down the hall, electrocuting the orcs. It then strikes a wall and bounces back in your direction. Please make reflex saves."

Er ... ??? Lightning doesn't bounce - or rather, it always bounces but doesn't harm the caster (go look up how lightning works).

EDIT: Lightning Bolts bounced in 3.5? weird. I'll take your word on that one, but for the record it definitely doesn't in PF: LIGHTNING BOLT

Oh, and that fireball one is almost definitely not RAW, but it it is RAP (Rules as Physics).

Dark Archive

Ah, looks like PF changed sleep and lightning bolt. Sleep is now a flat 4 hit dice worth of creatures, and lightning bolt no longer reflects back if it hits a wall. Hadn't used those in PF yet so hadn't been aware of the changes to those particular spells. I generally play a fire based sorcerer when I make a caster. But the sleep spell STILL says it affects lowest HD creatures first. So an ogre and 3 level one PCs in the radius, players have to make their saves THEN it can affect the ogre, assuming there's enough HD left to do so.

Huh, looks like they reduced the radius of a fireball too by a bit. I'd still stand by a ruling of a fireball in a 5 foot wide hall and a backstop 10 feet beyond the target is going to spread back and affect someone standing 40 feet away from the target. Normally, the caster and company would be safe. But in that situation, the fireball's spread is channeled towards them.

Dark Archive

Sleep as I recall use to affect 2d4 HD worth of creatures, not a flat 4HD.


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Huh, looks like they reduced the radius of a fireball too by a bit. I'd still stand by a ruling of a fireball in a 5 foot wide hall and a backstop 10 feet beyond the target is going to spread back and affect someone standing 40 feet away from the target. Normally, the caster and company would be safe. But in that situation, the fireball's spread is channeled towards them.

That would be something that the GM should go over with their players before the campaign starts, because that's a pretty significant houseruling.


MrCharisma wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

Paladins. There's so much hate on the boards but they're seriously so good. I really don't understand the hate.

Also I agree with Badbird too, multiclassing is fun. I put a 1-level martial dip on almost all my 6/9 casters (BADWRONGFUN!)

Gajolob Gorum Tell me more of these powerful Table-magics? Are they something a Half-Orc Paladin could aspire to?

Paladin hate is generally centered around the code, not the mechanics. Mechanically paladins are great. Charisma to saves is amazing.
Yeah so I see. I feel like I've had it wrong this whole time ... people don't hate Paladins, they hate GMs who hate Paladins.

Honestly it's not even the code that's the problem, it's the extreme way some people interpret the code that causes the actual problems.


Quote:
Ah, looks like PF changed sleep and lightning bolt.

Sleep is 4HD in 3.5 and lightning bolt doesn't bounce in 3.5 either. Likewise Fireball's fills a set radius and doesn't effect anything outside that radius in both PF and 3.5.

You're probably thinking of AD&D, where sleep effected 4d4/2d4/1d4/.5d4 or 0-1 creatures depending on HD, fireball conforms to the shape of terrain and cover the same area and lightning bolt rebounds back at the caster if it reaches a nonconductive wall before its full length.

Dark Archive

More so, it's the fact that many people play Lawful Good as Lawful Stupid.

On another note, just checked my copy of 3.5's players guide. Looks like they changed how lightning bolt worked there too in one of the later printings.

And GeneMemeScene, that ruling for how fireball works comes from the descriptions in 2nd edition, early printings of 3rd and 3.5 edition, and the fact it's radius is still listed as as "20 foot Spread". With it then being described as a radial burst via the spell description, 'spread' is taken to mean that it'll still fill the full area of effect, but spread out to fit the environment. I'd personally rule it doesn't go around corners, and once channeled in a direction it wont spread out through doors (even though it may destroy said doors).


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Sleep affects targeted creatures in a burst, similar to haste (which targets a number of creatures within a certain radius of each other). Spreads turn corners, but aren't volumetric. Lightning doesn't bounce (and certainly not off of stone), either in reality or in game. None of those are valid, they're all cases of dropping spontaneous rules changes to screw with your players.

I don't think there are many people who like those, but I hate them anyway.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
And GeneMemeScene, that ruling for how fireball works comes from the descriptions in 2nd edition, early printings of 3rd and 3.5 edition, and the fact it's radius is still listed as as "20 foot Spread". With it then being described as a radial burst via the spell description, 'spread' is taken to mean that it'll still fill the full area of effect, but spread out to fit the environment. I'd personally rule it doesn't go around corners, and once channeled in a direction it wont spread out through doors (even though it may destroy said doors).

Thankfully, 'spread' is a defined rules term.

Aiming a Spell wrote:
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.


As I remember it, the 2nd edition ruling for lightning bolt was that it did not so much bounce as the end closest to the caster expanded once the far end hit a wall. So, if you cast a sixty foot lightning bolt into a 30 foot corridor 20 feet away, the bolt would hit the wall, then the close end would spike out thirty feet in your direction, hitting you. According to Sage advice, anyway. The gold box games still had the bounce and the ability to hit creatures twice.


Have I mentioned I like blasting without dazing spell? Throwing elements around is fun.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
HyperMissingno wrote:
Have I mentioned I like blasting without dazing spell? Throwing elements around is fun.

I like it, though I like it better in spheres. In that you can spam that stuff and only expend points to like blind people or make it an AOE type thing.

Dark Archive

Another thing I like that others seem to either hate or feel apathetic towards is the Wordcasting system. Sure any given effect ends up weaker then normal divine or arcane casting. But in exchange you get so much versatility since you're literally crafting your spells on the fly (if spontaneous) or at the time of memorizing your spells (if not spontaneous).

It lets you do some really fun stuff, like a fire bolt which then summons something at the point of impact.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Another thing I like that others seem to either hate or feel apathetic towards is the Wordcasting system. Sure any given effect ends up weaker then normal divine or arcane casting. But in exchange you get so much versatility since you're literally crafting your spells on the fly (if spontaneous) or at the time of memorizing your spells (if not spontaneous).

It lets you do some really fun stuff, like a fire bolt which then summons something at the point of impact.

my problem with word casting is more like... I think of Two Worlds 2 style casting holds the same principles but does it better. though I definitely enjoy more different kinds of casting.

Spoiler:
In that you can make spells by putting cards together, I think your level or something limits the number of cards you can combine or lik you might just make a spell that you don't have enough mana to cast.

but basically you can do something like

Fire card + personal + Trap

and it makes a fire trap at your feet.

THEN you could do

Fire card X9 + Trap X9 + SprayX3

and you fire out 3 bolts each of which will create 9 fire traps that are super charged with fire damage.

THEN you could chain spells

so spray + death + trap
into bounce
into Death + Well + Personal
into bounce
into Death + Summon + personal

and omg you fire a shotgun blast of spells that do damage over time and spawn a zombie.

nother fun one was summon + life + protect or something and you could get your self stuck in like a circle of rocks protecting you that heal you. great escape plan.

though you need to be like level 800 to do this kind of stuff. XD


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>Fireball has a 30 foot radius blast, and will ALWAYS affect the same amount of space.

So do you always increase it to a 37.5 burst whenever it is cast at the floor(such as on an open plane) instead of high into the air(where it wouldn't be affected by such pesky things like floors redirecting the explosion)? Fireball is a sphere, after all. 3-dimensional.

>With it then being described as a radial burst via the spell description, 'spread' is taken to mean that it'll still fill the full area of effect, but spread out to fit the environment.

Area, not volume? That's the weirdest half-measure I have seen so far.

>I'd personally rule it doesn't go around corners

So it works like a conventional explosion, except for this pesky diffraction thing, where it works like magic again? If you are going to go with fireball being a physical explosion, may as well go all the way. Add pressure wave effects, make it throw things around and reposition people. Add thermal effects, make arrows flying over the area where fireball was cast suffer -1 to -3 to attack rolls due to hot air rising and affecting their flight. Calculate how the heat of the fireball is going to fall off as it expands, dealing more damage to targets closer to the center and almost none to those far away. Crack some math and add explosion inhibition effects from water in the air, making the spell deal less damage in humid environments.

I mean, go big or go home, am I right?


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:

More so, it's the fact that many people play Lawful Good as Lawful Stupid.

On another note, just checked my copy of 3.5's players guide. Looks like they changed how lightning bolt worked there too in one of the later printings.

And GeneMemeScene, that ruling for how fireball works comes from the descriptions in 2nd edition, early printings of 3rd and 3.5 edition, and the fact it's radius is still listed as as "20 foot Spread". With it then being described as a radial burst via the spell description, 'spread' is taken to mean that it'll still fill the full area of effect, but spread out to fit the environment. I'd personally rule it doesn't go around corners, and once channeled in a direction it wont spread out through doors (even though it may destroy said doors).

Sorry to keep on the dogpile, but you are misremembering D&D rules the way my father misremembers movies. Here is the full text of my first printing 3.0 lightning bolt spell

lightning bolt wrote:

Lightning Bolt

Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) or 50 ft. + 5 ft./level
Area: 5 ft. wide to medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./level); or 10 ft. wide to 50 ft. + 5 ft./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

The character releases a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to each creature within its area. The bolt begins at the character's fingertips.

The lightning bolt sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path. It can melt metals with a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the bolt may continue beyond the barrier if the spell’s range permits; otherwise, it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

The only thing that has been substantially changed is that in 3.0 there was an option for a short fat lightning bolt 10 ft. wide. The last time lightning bolt bounced was in AD&D.

Here's similar text for fireball, which never had compression mechanics in 3.0 or later.

fireball wrote:

Fireball

Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

A fireball spell is a burst of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to all creatures within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

The character determines the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the character and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point (an early impact results in an early detonation). If the character attempts to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, the character must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

That all being said you are mostly right about sleep. It did affect 2d4 hitdice in 3.0 but it was changed to a flat 4 in 3.5.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

lightning bounced around in ADnD I think. I never ran a mage in ADnD but I do remember bolts bouncing around.

you know this isn't in Paizo

but something I love that i'm pretty sure 99% of people hate who are exposed to it. Two World 2. that was a fun game, even if the story was absolute garbage.


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*ahem*

Google is your friend. Why rely on decades old memory and correct DM interpretation when you can get the actual text within 20 seconds?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
On another note, just checked my copy of 3.5's players guide. Looks like they changed how lightning bolt worked there too in one of the later printings.

I remember the spells working somewhat like you describe in older editions, but from 3.0 and up, they haven't really changed at all. The v3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder versions are virtually identical and have never been updated in any later printings.


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Klara Meison wrote:

>Fireball has a 30 foot radius blast, and will ALWAYS affect the same amount of space.

So do you always increase it to a 37.5 burst whenever it is cast at the floor(such as on an open plane) instead of high into the air(where it wouldn't be affected by such pesky things like floors redirecting the explosion)? Fireball is a sphere, after all. 3-dimensional.

>With it then being described as a radial burst via the spell description, 'spread' is taken to mean that it'll still fill the full area of effect, but spread out to fit the environment.

Area, not volume? That's the weirdest half-measure I have seen so far.

>I'd personally rule it doesn't go around corners

So it works like a conventional explosion, except for this pesky diffraction thing, where it works like magic again? If you are going to go with fireball being a physical explosion, may as well go all the way. Add pressure wave effects, make it throw things around and reposition people. Add thermal effects, make arrows flying over the area where fireball was cast suffer -1 to -3 to attack rolls due to hot air rising and affecting their flight. Calculate how the heat of the fireball is going to fall off as it expands, dealing more damage to targets closer to the center and almost none to those far away. Crack some math and add explosion inhibition effects from water in the air, making the spell deal less damage in humid environments.

I mean, go big or go home, am I right?

I just did some math, and a 30ft radius burst comes down to 905 5ft cubes. Damn that's some fine cannon material if difraction isn't a thing-make a 10 by 5 by 5 corridor with a wall in the end aimed at the enemy, throw a fireball inside, enjoy our mile-long shot of fire laser.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

All those spell effects are AD&Disms. There were even changes from 1e to 2e - in 1e, a bounced lightning bolt did damage multiple times if it passed through the same target. In 2e it explicitly only forced save rerolls based on the number of times it passed through.

AD&D sleep targeted an area, explicitly affected the lowest HD creatures first, and had no save.

Fireball was generally not for indoor use. One of my 1e DMs used to happily declare "33,000 cubic feet of flame!" when someone tried it. Followed by counting out 33 squares on his map of 10' squares.

Liberty's Edge

MrCharisma wrote:


Yeah so I see. I feel like I've had it wrong this whole time ... people don't hate Paladins, they hate GMs who hate Paladins.

To be fair it's both Dms who hate Paladins. As well as player who do their best to give us their impression of Lawful Stupid. Ever have a family member going on the latest health fad. Then when one is eating something goes "don't eat bread it's not good for you. Don't eat food xyz it's not good for you etc..". Now replace that "you can't act that way it's against your alignment. You should not that it's not a good act" It gets annoying real fast.

We don't hate Paladins. We dislike DMs who screw players over when they run their games. As well as players who don't know how to play them properly.

As for Fireball it does cause damage to it's surroundings.


The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

The spell can also cause fires on a ship. It's in the spell description. Even Lightning Bolt can do the same to items with a low melting point. I let my players know upfront that certain spells have secondary effects. Even though it's in the spell descriptions.


memorax wrote:
Ever have a family member going on the latest health fad.

Oh god don't get me started. A really good pie-shop in my city closed down because the whole damn city is on the "Paleo Diet" ... which by the way has now been classified as an eating disorder.

You know what I like that other people hate? Bread!

As for Paladins, yeah I guess it's GM's who hate Paladins & Paladin-Players who hate themselves ...?


Turelus wrote:
Johnico wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
3) PLAY STYLE: Spontaneous action declarations; essentially trying to do something cool and thematic that isn't immediately covered in the rules. Things like "I attempt to flatten the charging group of enemies by flipping the bar table on top of them" or "I take out my grappling hook and attempt to snag the flying peryton's antlers so I can pull it out of the sky." Such declarations are invariably followed by multiple complicated nigh-impossible checks from the GM, inevitably results in failure, and then gets me blasted by the other players with responses like "you can't trip multiple people at once" or "why didn't you just shoot the peryton with your arrows instead of acting like a moron?" Far too many people have the "just kill it" mentality and they miss out on a lot of roleplaying fun as a result. What's more, when faced with unusual requests, many GMs go overboard with their rules (decreasing the odds anyone else will try anything similarly fun or exciting ever again) or just plain shut it down.
The tough part about the players doing wacky stuff (at least for me) is that I want to let them do it because it's awesome, but if it's too effective the really awesome one time thing will become just another standard tactic. You let them knock over a table to flatten a charging bunch of goons and it works amazingly well, they'll want to do that every time there's a table nearby. Or, even worse, they'll start carrying around a table for the express purpose of flipping it at people.

This is my issue with it. I love when players come up with out of the box tactics and ideas but have seen the issue first hand of "this was better than just hitting it, this is now our tactic".

The two examples I can think of are when a GM once allowed someone in a group to climb on top of a giants head (with various checks and rolls) and then stab their greatsword directly down into its skull getting a free critical hit.
This was an amazing and thematic moment...

I am going to disagree on the wall of force in front of a dragon being rules as written. The dragon and the player go on separate turns.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
I'd like this a lot more if there were f#$!ing reasons as to why aligned spells effected your alignment. Heck I'd accept something like "casting protection from good causes a good aligned NPC to miss an important attack" and similar stuff but the pathfinder devs just say "ooga booga booga you're lawful after three castings of protection fro chaos" and it pisses me off.
The rules are a little less restrictive than that. And I never said I was entirely on board with what spells had Alignment descriptors (I think there are a few issues there)...but the basic idea that some magic is, in fact, actively Evil due to drawing on dark powers and presumably making them stronger? That seems entirely reasonable to me.

The recent sidebar from Paizo actually recommended 3 castings for an alignment switch.

And its not limited to Evil, you can cast protection from evil a few times and you are back to being Good.


Wait, 3.0 Lightning bolt had a 10 ft wide choice? I like that.

Consider that my new houserule. Maybe I'll make 2nd level since lower range, lower max damage to 8+1d6/2 caster (Max 8+5d6 at 20th).

So at 2nd level: it deals 8+1d6 electric in 10 ft wide area, up to 65 ft away.
4th level, it deals 8+2d6 electric. Patters off as you get higher though.

Then you have a low width Lightning bolt at 3rd or a weaker wider 2nd level Forked Lightning Bolt.


lemeres wrote:

Core monks. Well, with archetypes of course. A nice sohei is a fantastic melee character.

I always questioned the need for the unchained monk to 'fix' monks when there were soheis that could take the pummeling style feats, as well as brawlers.

The general niche these three share just seemed too saturated for me to appreciate unchained monks. It just didn't necessarily feel differentiated enough

Particularly when the 'fix' was mostly incompatible with the countless archetypes already designed to 'fix' monks. I always appreciated the archetype system as a way to adjust a class in various different ways after release. I saw little need for a complete rewrite like that.

Archetypes get kind of complicated(especially when you start combining them). Unchained Monk provides something you can give a complete novice that still plays well.


Starbuck_II wrote:

Wait, 3.0 Lightning bolt had a 10 ft wide choice? I like that.

Consider that my new houserule. Maybe I'll make 2nd level since lower range, lower max damage to 8+1d6/2 caster (Max 8+5d6 at 20th).

So at 2nd level: it deals 8+1d6 electric in 10 ft wide area, up to 65 ft away.
4th level, it deals 8+2d6 electric. Patters off as you get higher though.

Then you have a low width Lightning bolt at 3rd or a weaker wider 2nd level Forked Lightning Bolt.

3.0 actually had a lot of weird AD&Disms which were excised in 3.5. Such as great cleave and whirlwind attack stacking and the slaad mutation table.


Alex Smith 908 wrote:


3.0 actually had a lot of weird AD&Disms which were excised in 3.5. Such as great cleave and whirlwind attack stacking

There's no good reason they should not.


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MrCharisma wrote:
memorax wrote:
Ever have a family member going on the latest health fad.
Oh god don't get me started. A really good pie-shop in my city closed down because the whole damn city is on the "Paleo Diet" ... which by the way has now been classified as an eating disorder.

May I have a reputable source on that? That doesn't sound quite believable as an empty claim.


Mashallah wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
memorax wrote:
Ever have a family member going on the latest health fad.
Oh god don't get me started. A really good pie-shop in my city closed down because the whole damn city is on the "Paleo Diet" ... which by the way has now been classified as an eating disorder.
May I have a reputable source on that? That doesn't sound quite believable as an empty claim.

Try looking here.


It's not paleo specifically, but the sort of health obsessed fad-following that frequently briefly leads people to Paleo.

For a healthy percentage of people some form of Paleo/primal is ideal, but everyone is different.


I had the funny experience of having someone explain the paleo diet to me immediately after I watched a big series on the Indo European migrations. Which might as well have been titled "how lactose tolerance can let you conquer the known world".

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:


3.0 actually had a lot of weird AD&Disms which were excised in 3.5. Such as great cleave and whirlwind attack stacking
There's no good reason they should not.

Agreed. It's a big investment of feats akin to greater trip+vicious stomp. The synergy should be rewarded.

edit: For reals though if you're lactose tolerant the paleo diet is really dumb. If you want some back to basics diet you should definitely include a healthy amount of goat and sheep dairy. It's what led to your ancestors being healthier and stronger than the native Europeans. Hence why they culture was wiped out surviving only in remote areas like Crete, the Basque region, and among the native Irish.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Alex Smith 908 wrote:


3.0 actually had a lot of weird AD&Disms which were excised in 3.5. Such as great cleave and whirlwind attack stacking
There's no good reason they should not.

It was a Band-Aid on the "bag o' rats" "tactic."

For the uninitiated: Start round next to boss enemy. Free action drop a bag containing dozens of rats. Now Whirlwind Attack the rats, Great Cleaving onto the boss with each strike. Boss eats a couple dozen attacks in one round all at full BAB.

This is why Whirlwind and Great Cleave do not stack anymore.

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