| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi guys, I'm a pbp GM that will be running this AP here in the boards starting on Monday. Like in most of the APs in pbp format a 5th player really adds to the RP and helps a lot to keep the game flowing, which is specially important for us.
The current roster of victims players are:
-Alenka Farkasova, a human alchemist (chirurgeon/vivisectionist) who conducted forbidden studies with humans and animals back in the University of Lepidstadt
-Cerio Dreswitch, a human spiritualist (fractured mind) with a despair phantom of his long dead twin brother... if he had a brother in the first place
-Jenni Skulsplitter, a half-orc bloodrager (primalist/metamagic rager) with her blood tainted by an abyssal mark
-Mira Tullian, a human mesmerist who thanks to her problematic mother learnt to control her emotions so everyone around her would stay calm
-Professor Licius Mermont, a human investigator (questioner) who has a chair at the University of Lepidstadt, even if some obscure topics recently caught his attention
To adjust for a 5th player, I usually do so by adjusting the experience they receive, and for this, I work in different ways for the xp received from encounters and those received by Story Awards. Story Awards xp are the easier ones, since you simply add 1/5 more (multiply it by 1.25)... this way, instead of a 800xp you give them 1000xp.
For the encounters, it is a bit tricky, since each encounter as written would leave you a small deficit. A CR1 encounter would give the PCs 400xp (100xp each) but with a 5th player, each would get only 80xp instead. By itself, this would already 'balance the party', since by adding another player, all of them would get less xp and thus be slightly weaker... but no player really likes to get less levels, so instead I add more creatures/levels/templates to the monsters until I get the same xp.
For this AP, the math lead me to this arrangement:
Boiler Room: Add 1 Dire Rat and the Advanced Template to the Zoog
Storage: Add 2 Giant Centipede
Ruined Hall: Add the Advanced Template to the Beheaded and the Crawling Hands
Laundry Room: Add 1 Mesmerist level to Doctor Oathsday
East Courtyard: Add the Advanced Template to the Nightgaunt
Conference Room: Add 1 Pickled Punk
Ruined Office: Add 1 Dire Rat
Administrator Losandro's Office: Add the Advanced Template to Eliege Losandro
Records Hall: Add 2 Apostles of Orpiment
Records Room: Add 1 Apostle of Orpiment
Admiting: Add 1 Boilborn
East Ward Hallway: Add 1 Ghoul
Nurse Station: Add 1 Apostle of Orpiment
North Courtyard: Add 1 Ghoul
North Orderly Station: Add the Advancedt Template to the Voonith
Work Room: Add 1 Ghoul
Group Therapy: Add 1 Ghoul
Showers: Add 1 Ghoul and the Advanced Template to Klades
Tower Room: Add 1 Ghoul
Tower Highs: Add the Advanced Template to the Oneirogen
Guard Room: Add 1 Rogue level to Aggra "Bag Lady" Loomis
Hall of Oneirogens: Add the Advanced Template to the Oneirogens
Zandalus's Den: Add 1 Psychic level to Zandalus and 1 Sorcerer level to the Tatterman
I'll also be using the Sanity and Fear additional rules but so far have not decided about which encounters will risk sanity or need fear checks.
What are your thoughts? Do you think this will make some encounters too challenging or too easy?
Ordinarily I go with using the quick-n-dirty method of XP for groups of 4 or 5 in an AP, i.e., don't change anything, divvy by 4 and award it to all 5. Where it says each character gets ## xp, give 'em that xp. It is more important that the characters attain levels on-track than not.
The treasure deficit balances itself out over time in my experience. Just go with the flow. If you feel they're lagging, adjust as necessary.
Alternatively, use the automatic bonus progression system from Ultimate Campaign, removing/modifying treasure accordingly (usually by stripping magical enhancement bonuses off of everything). This is probably the easiest method to keep PC gear on track.
It sounds like you've got the general idea of how to make it more difficult.
This is a good article if you've not seen it yet:
The Math Behind CR
I've personally found that adding extra players + extra monsters makes the game bog down a little bit. If the encounter is not a single CR+2 or CR+3 creature, Advanced templates (or even giant etc) can be a bit easier to manage.
Be careful adding them to single CR+2 or CR+3 creatures, as that can make them rather dangerous, especially on creatures that are nasty for their CR.
You can also try max monster HP, especially if the party is DPS-happy, but be aware that this can also lead to a bogged-down game, so adjust accordingly if it changes the pace in a negative fashion.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having ran many a 5 man parties I quit counting xp and started using the advancement track sidebar in the front of each AP for levels. I've not really ran into the need to add treasure to anywhere since most of the APs tend to not give much treasure until an overcompensation at the end of the books.
For expanded fear rules, spooked should not shut down psychic casting for balance reasons.
I would avoid scaling the boss battles up too much, personally. They're already pretty brutal, so I'd focus more on bumping health a little. Strongly consider a rule of never adding more ghouls- their paralysis attack makes it very easy to quickly rack up dead PCs. You don't have any elves that are immune, and the Mesmerist won't add much against them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Aimless: The way you mentioned is indeed the easiest way to run things but will for sure make the AP easier, which is not my intention and generally not my player's either. It could be fun to cake walk a bit encounters but when you reach the BBEG, it should be difficult, and IMO this is specially true for a Mythos themed game like this AP.
Obbu: I agree with you that adding another player and monsters bog down a f2f game, but this isn't really true for play-by-post games. Adding a fifth player in a pbp game means more interaction between the players (the same occurs in f2f I think) and there is also a bigger chance that in 1 day at least 3 players will post, allowing me to move the game along. Additional monsters would only increase the amount of time I spent rolling dice, but for my players it is the same, since we don't have a specific time to post.
The fun thing is that I've never read the article you posted but since it was interesting I also read the sequel (found HERE) and it details exactly the same process that I do! Awesome.
To be honest I don't really like to modify monsters, like adding more hp, since it hampers the PCs judgment. For example, we all know how much hp an orc should have so we play accordingly...
In the end, I usually prefer to add more moots than increase the 'big dudes', with the exception for the bosses, who still need to be challenging IMO.
@archmagi1: In a couple situations I also prefer to do like you, but in pbp I prefer to keep the xp track on the header of the campaign. I found that it really helps the PC to see that the gaming is moving forward and that they are achieving something. PBP is a pretty slow format and keeping the PCs engaged is always a challenge.
@QuidEst: I've talked to my players and decided to make a house rule regarding psychic magic and the fear rules. Instead of being unable to cast at all (both for the spooked and the higher fear degrees), a player needs to make a Concentration Check with a DC = 10 + fear level (from 1 to 6) + twice the spell level. The thought component would still add 10 if the player doesn't spend an action to focus.
This way it is still difficult to cast it, but doable.
About scaling the boss, I've found that due to action economy, it is usually more challenging to add the Advanced Template (+2 to all rolls) than another class level.
Some of the encounters are a cakewalk ... some decidedly are not, even for 5 PCs, as written.
You revisions look quite challenging. Be sure to let us know how many bodies hit the floor in the obits thread! :D
Showers: Add 1 Ghoul and the Advanced Template to Klades
Hm, I'm unsure of the wisdom of adding the Advanced template to a creature twice (as ghasts are already Advanced ghouls). It's already quite the boost at +2 AC, all saves, hit, damage, DCs, CMB, +4 CMD, and +2 hp/HD - much better than you can get adding a HD or a class level. Although he only has the one claw, so maybe it's not so bad.
Showers: Add 1 Ghoul and the Advanced Template to KladesHm, I'm unsure of the wisdom of adding the Advanced template to a creature twice (as ghasts are already Advanced ghouls). It's already quite the boost at +2 AC, all saves, hit, damage, DCs, CMB, +4 CMD, and +2 hp/HD - much better than you can get adding a HD or a class level. Although he only has the one claw, so maybe it's not so bad.
Yeah, completely agree with you! When I made this list I got a brain fart and forgot that a ghast was already a ghoul with the Advanced Template. Since then, I've decided to go with 2 Warrior levels instead (it takes 2 levels from a NPC class to increase the CR of a monster).
Comparing this new option of adding 2 Warrior levels, it is a much nerfed version of the previous Advanced Template idea... it will give him a bit more hp but less damage and AC.
|
The APs that I've played in, we've gotten rid of xp all together, and just use the chart at the beginning of each volume. "Players should be 2nd level when they enter the Cave of Majestic Awesomeness" - okay, all the PCs are now 2nd level! It saves from having to recalculate too much.
Aside from that, I really like the encounters that you built. I can't wait to see what happens out of them!
That advanced Nightgaunt (22 AC, 47 HP) seems a tad excessive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is a rule of thumb.
Take the XP for an encounter. Divide it by four. That is the amount of extra XPs you have in which you can build up a specific encounter. Often it is handy to add extra bodies somehow as Action Economy ends up in the players' corner with a fifth player. You'd be surprised at what a giant rat can do to help tie up people. ;)
Sometimes this can be easy. If there are four dire rates in an encounter, you can just add a fifth. If there are four cultists? Add a fifth. But for an end-game encounter I recommend some sort of mook to help draw off action economy. Seeing you don't have any clerics and thus don't likely have people with Channel Positive Energy, undead can serve in this role. (Otherwise they end up being roadbumps.)
Alternate idea for boosting Klade: 1 level of Kineticist (from Occult Adventures) with the Blood Kineticist archetype (i.e. he controls blood instead of water, and can attack by controlling the PCs' blood).
@Keirine: I use the XP tracker more like a guide, just to make sure my players are advancing correctly. Also, I'm pretty good in math so it is no trouble at all for me!
@Spastic Puma: To be honest this is indeed the encounter that I'm mostly worried about. On the other hand, an additional player gives the PCs an even greater edge when you look at action economy.
@Tangent101: I use almost exactly what you've said, with the only difference that I accumulate XP until I can use it... for an example, I'm short 100XP from an encounter and none of the critters in that encounter 'costs' this much, I wait until another 100XP deficit appears so I can add a 200xp critter.
@Spatula: This is a great idea but I'm not sure how to do it since ghasts have 0 Con! Also, I think that, by the rules, I'd have to add 2 levels of Kinticist since a ghast "monster role" is combat and I don't see the kineticist as the same as a Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger.
KM WolfMaw: I see your point but IMO that chart is more like a 'lazy way' to do things. The APs specifically say that they are designed for 4 players and adding a 5th one would for sure make it easier simply because of the action economy. Not adjusting the encounters would make the game less challenging and satisfying for my players, specially in a horror game... if the players cakewalk all the encounters it becomes really difficult to keep the 'horror alive'.
@Spatula: This is a great idea but I'm not sure how to do it since ghasts have 0 Con! Also, I think that, by the rules, I'd have to add 2 levels of Kinticist since a ghast "monster role" is combat and I don't see the kineticist as the same as a Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger.
There is at least one kineticist archetype that makes them work for undead by changing the key ability score. I know Overwhelming Soul and Blood Kineticist stack specifically for bloodbending vampires, I don't know if the other ability-changing archetypes work with it.
Undead use Cha instead of Con for anything that relies on Con, no? That's how HeroLab treats it.
@The Golux & Spatula: Hum... I'm liking this idea more and more! It would also add a bit more personality to Klades instead of him being just a 'stronger ghoul'.
I'll take a look on both the mentioned Archetypes!
My advice is change nothing. Divide by five, and the party will average about half a level behind to make up for the added person. No need to adjust the difficulty at all.
Given this AP is from several accounts more difficult than other APs, letting them level up as per recommendations for the first book probably won't break things. You can go by "reduced XPs" letting their level lag slightly after the first book when survivability is greater.
Developer
|
Something else to keep in mind with all these fine suggestions is that it's totally fine to change up how you deal with adjusting things at different points in the AP. This first adventure is fairly difficult, but if later adventures hold off a bit (which in some parts they certainly do) consider adjusting encounters or XP distribution differently.
Hey GM Thing or anyone else,
Have you modified any of the further modules in this AP to account for a 5th player?
Is it also generally not worth fiddling with traps or haunts to squeeze in 1/5th more challenge or XP?
My game has unexpectedly gained a 5th player so I wouldn't mind seeing other GM's notes as i venture out of 1st module.
Having recently finished Module 1 with the suggestions in this thread I have come up with adjustments for Module 2. My group are all experienced players and work well together. As such, there have been no PC deaths (but a few close calls) so far.
I welcome any and all criticisms or suggestions.
The Thrushmoor Terror - 5 Player Encounter Adjustments
Grotto of the Witch
A1. Add one more Assassin vine
A2. Give the Phantom Fungus the advanced template
A3. Add 1 more fungal wolf
B1. Add 3 more villagers
-Increase the quest reward for a diplomatic solution to 2,000xp
Event2. change the quest reward to 2,000 xp for stopping Elgrior
C1. Add advanced template to gibbering mouther
-Increase the quest reward for finding the stashed weapons to 1,200xp
Event 4. My advice is no change. The Revenant is plenty deadly for the party at this level in addition to it's tactics of singling out a single PC. Maybe add the Advanced template or a level of fighter or something if you think your party REALLY needs the challenge.
Event 6. Increase the quest reward to to 3,000 xp for rescuing sholn.
Event 7. Add 1 more cultist kidnapper
D1. Add 1 more undead mercenary
D2. Add 1 more undead mercenary
D3. Add 1 more undead mercenary
D4. Add 1 more Dog
D9. Add 1 more Skum
D11. Add 1 deep one (re-skin as a weaker/variant skum)
D12. Add 1 skum
D13. Add the advanced Template to the Id Ooze
D14. Give tsiltari 1 more level of rogue
-Increase the quest reward to 1,500xp for seeing through Tsiltari’s ruse the first time
D15. Add 1 more undead mercenary
D16. Give Itsquaal 1 additional ranger level
D19. Add 1 deep one (re-skin as a weaker/variant skum)
D20. Add the advanced Template to the Id Ooze
D22. Add 1 deep one (re-skin as a weaker/variant skum)
D24. Again, I'm hesitant to increase Clymes as he is an already potent foe as is. My advice is no change. Maybe 2 additional expert levels or 1 rogue level if you think your party needs the challenge.
E1. Add 1 more cultist
E2. Add 1 more living topiary
E3. Give Asa 1 more level in rogue and in aristocrat
E6. Add 1 more kuru
E13. Give the Basidirond the Advanced template
E16. Add 1 kuru
F1. Give the Hound of Tindalos the Advanced Template
F2. Add 1 more cleric cultist
F3. Give the MANANANGGAL the Advanced template
F5. Give the star vampire the Advanced template
F6. Add 1 more rat swarm
F8. Add 1 cultist kidnapper
F9. Add 1 cultist kidnapper
F10. Give Rumatri 1 additional level of bard
-Increase the quest reward to 3000xp for reading the notes
F14. Give Nemira 1 additional level of sorcerer
G4. Add 2 cultist kidnappers
G5. Add 1 cultist kidnapper
G6. Change the 7 dire rats to 8 Dire rats with the Advanced template
G8. Add 1 kuru
G9. Change the 2 elder things to 3 elder things with the drunk template
-Increase the quest reward to 3,600xp for a diplomatic resolution with the creatures
G11. Add 1 byakhee