BAB Progression Adjustments

[Cellion]

While thinking about BAB, 9th level casting, and the differentiation between gish-like classes and their full casting brethren, I ended up considering the following:

What if the full (9th level) casting classes were demoted to lower BAB progression?

For core classes this would make Druid and Cleric 1/2 BAB progression and Sorcerer and Wizard 1/4 or 0 BAB progression.

This further differentiates these classes from things like the Warpriest, Hunter, Magus, Bard etc. It also reins in the auto-hit nature of touch attacks at higher levels (touch ACs don't scale on average at higher CR, but the casters that use touch attacks gain BAB over time). It also may help to tone down the "do-everything" nature of some of these classes.

My instinct is that this would be an unpopular change. But would it be good for the game?

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Druids would become pure casters and still mediocre. No one would play clerics. Arcane casters would have to lose all touch and ranged touch spells. You'd being ruining classes and helping now one. What is good for the game is making other classes better; given fighters better movement and the ability to influence narrative at higher levels.

This would definitely not be good for the game however you define it.

[Daw]

Agree with Mr. Pitt on this one.

Also, quibble on OP "do everything" assertion.
"Do Anything" would be more accurate. For a caster to be effective in an area, the have to focus their spell selections, so they lose out somewhere else.

Admit that casters have a real net advantage on the 4 encounter per day model added to the video-game item availability model, since they really no longer have to seriously consider rationing their casting. Try adjusting those models and I suspect that everyone will be happier with the results.

I kind of think you are underselling the powersets of the classes you cited as needing boosts against the classes you are suggesting downgrading.

[Cyrad]

It wouldn't really solve anything.

Gish classes typically get much more powerful class features or gain lots of skill points compared to 9-level divine spellcasters like the cleric.

[kyrt-ryder]

Touch and Ranged-touch are easily switched to reflex saves.

[Daw]

Kyrt-Ryder wrote:

Touch and Ranged-touch are easily switched to reflex saves.

Unfortunately, this makes them much less effective, especially against the evasion dippers. This being the intent?

[Vanity]

Cellion wrote:

While thinking about BAB, 9th level casting, and the differentiation between gish-like classes and their full casting brethren, I ended up considering the following:

What if the full (9th level) casting classes were demoted to lower BAB progression?

For core classes this would make Druid and Cleric 1/2 BAB progression and Sorcerer and Wizard 1/4 or 0 BAB progression.

This further differentiates these classes from things like the Warpriest, Hunter, Magus, Bard etc. It also reins in the auto-hit nature of touch attacks at higher levels (touch ACs don't scale on average at higher CR, but the casters that use touch attacks gain BAB over time). It also may help to tone down the "do-everything" nature of some of these classes.

My instinct is that this would be an unpopular change. But would it be good for the game?

The problem with lumping primary divine and natural casters is their spell lists. Bear in mind, the only reason they are permitted mid BA and full spells is because their spell lists don't include powerful damage dealing options. Even the damage dealing they do have does not scale well; eg Inflict Light Wounds capping out at 1d8 +5, touch range and must succeed on an attack roll, save for half, versus Burning Hands capping out at 5d4, 15 foot cone, hits all targets within, save for half.

[kyrt-ryder]

Daw wrote:

Kyrt-Ryder wrote:

Touch and Ranged-touch are easily switched to reflex saves.

Unfortunately, this makes them much less effective, especially against the evasion dippers. This being the intent?

Making reflex saves more important (presently considered the weakest save in the game) while removing an additional armor class to track has done nothing but good for my campaigns.

Regarding evasion, who said it was reflex save for half damage? [Ranged] Touch spells were all or nothing before the change, in my own game they remain all or nothing.

[Cat-thulhu]

You'd be better off scaling spell progression. Remove 9th and 8th level spells, spread 7th out across all 20 levels and get rid of limited wish. 4 and 6 level casters remain unchanged.

Adding more power to classes only adds to the complications of higher level play. The game starts to lose a lot of the fun after levels 11-12 because a min-maxed (optimised?) character now has so many options an adventure can barely keep up with the players ability, and some of the less optimal classes, just as fun to play, can't keep up with their brethren at the table so they loose interest.