My DM Allowed It... Now How Can I Make It Work?


Advice


Alright, so my DM is very much the flexible, relaxed type. That being the case, I figured I'd ask him about an idea I had for a back up character, and he allowed it under one specific caveat.

He, has allowed me to make an Atomie with the Young Template, as long as I use the stats that it comes with after adjusting for the template (and of course after leveling). This character would be lv. 8, and this DM allows Leadership, so I will be taking that, both for RP and mechanical reasons.

Looking into the old "Songbird of Doom" thread has definitely given me a lot of fun ideas, as I'm looking for something other than a magic user.

This characters stats will be:
STR: 2
DEX: 21
CON:9
INT: 11
WIS: 14
CHA: 18

This isn't including the 2 points from leveling. Which I'm thinking of putting 1 in CON and another in DEX or INT to get that extra skill point.

Any suggestions on how to make this survivable, yet a beast in combat? I'm aiming for a tiny terror to face in combat. Preferably melee.

Also, anything I should know about playing a fine sized character rules wise? Things to keep in mind?


I would probably go for a Mouser Swashbuckler, all the stats seem perfect for that. I would apply the level adjustments to CON as well.

You can't attack creatures unless you enter their space, meaning that Mouser would complement you excellently.

I would pick either slashing grace, dervish dance, or fencing grace for DEX to damage.


Beware of well made doors (seriously). You will be unable to provide enough force to open just about any sort of door with a 2 strength, let alone work it's handle/bar/latch/etc at that size.

A room without a window or chimney and a well made door might as well be a prison cell for you.


Skylancer4 wrote:

Beware of well made doors (seriously). You will be unable to provide enough force to open just about any sort of door with a 2 strength, let alone work it's handle/bar/latch/etc at that size.

A room without a window or chimney and a well made door might as well be a prison cell for you.

Could you actually just fit under the door?


I've seen a (non-young) atomie played effectively as a magus, with the 3rd party spiderhawk archetype. My sorcerer's most lethal spell became telekinetic charge.

If that archetype isn't available then eldritch scion, aberrant bloodline should be effective or arcane bloodline thematic.


Skylancer4 wrote:

Beware of well made doors (seriously). You will be unable to provide enough force to open just about any sort of door with a 2 strength, let alone work it's handle/bar/latch/etc at that size.

A room without a window or chimney and a well made door might as well be a prison cell for you.

A definite possibility. As Mage Hunter suggested, I may be able to just squeeze under most doors. I am looking for other solutions as well. One of the reasons I wanted Leadership for was a normal sized cohort that will help with such things. Also considering inscribed magical tattoos, or sized magical items to help in areas needed.


MageHunter wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

Beware of well made doors (seriously). You will be unable to provide enough force to open just about any sort of door with a 2 strength, let alone work it's handle/bar/latch/etc at that size.

A room without a window or chimney and a well made door might as well be a prison cell for you.

Could you actually just fit under[/b] the door?

A barn door, sure. Not a well made door. You know those that aren't drafty or easily bypassed, that you would find in any half decent inn, merchant house, or secure location. Not every door has 2+ inch gaps or is made out of ill fitting warped wooden planks.

Diminutive is still rat sized, and Atomie stand a foot tall and thus are much BIGGER than a rat. Even at "fine" for a "young" one you are looking at least 6-9 inches tall, you aren't as small as you may think (ignoring the fact you might not even be smaller as fey don't necessarily breed and age like most mortal creatures and are "created" 'as is' because the GM already OK'd the idea).

OT a little bit, but I kinda laughed when I looked up the strength score

Strength Attribute description: 2 wrote:
Needs help to stand, can be knocked over by strong breezes


Greater Hat of Disguise. Turn into a small or medium humanoid as needed, with the commensurate STR increase.


Skylancer4 wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

Beware of well made doors (seriously). You will be unable to provide enough force to open just about any sort of door with a 2 strength, let alone work it's handle/bar/latch/etc at that size.

A room without a window or chimney and a well made door might as well be a prison cell for you.

Could you actually just fit under[/b] the door?

A barn door, sure. Not a well made door. You know those that aren't drafty or easily bypassed, that you would find in any half decent inn, merchant house, or secure location. Not every door has 2+ inch gaps or is made out of ill fitting warped wooden planks.

Diminutive is still rat sized, and Atomie stand a foot tall and thus are much BIGGER than a rat. Even at "fine" for a "young" one you are looking at least 6-9 inches tall, you aren't as small as you may think (ignoring the fact you might not even be smaller as fey don't necessarily breed and age like most mortal creatures and are "created" 'as is' because the GM already OK'd the idea).

OT a little bit, but I kinda laughed when I looked up the strength score

Strength Attribute description: 2 wrote:
Needs help to stand, can be knocked over by strong breezes

I figured I wouldn't be standing when trying to get under a door, I would think a crawling fine creature might be able to get under a lot of standard doors (maybe not all, but a decent amount).

That said, point made. I will be focusing on getting things to pump the STR attribute immediately.


Third Mind wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

Beware of well made doors (seriously). You will be unable to provide enough force to open just about any sort of door with a 2 strength, let alone work it's handle/bar/latch/etc at that size.

A room without a window or chimney and a well made door might as well be a prison cell for you.

Could you actually just fit under[/b] the door?

A barn door, sure. Not a well made door. You know those that aren't drafty or easily bypassed, that you would find in any half decent inn, merchant house, or secure location. Not every door has 2+ inch gaps or is made out of ill fitting warped wooden planks.

Diminutive is still rat sized, and Atomie stand a foot tall and thus are much BIGGER than a rat. Even at "fine" for a "young" one you are looking at least 6-9 inches tall, you aren't as small as you may think (ignoring the fact you might not even be smaller as fey don't necessarily breed and age like most mortal creatures and are "created" 'as is' because the GM already OK'd the idea).

OT a little bit, but I kinda laughed when I looked up the strength score

Strength Attribute description: 2 wrote:
Needs help to stand, can be knocked over by strong breezes

I figured I wouldn't be standing when trying to get under a door, I would think a crawling fine creature might be able to get under a lot of standard doors (maybe not all, but a decent amount).

That said, point made. I will be focusing on getting things to pump the STR attribute immediately.

Unfortunately that is a perception based on movies and the like where it is helpful to explain or create drama/tension. Trying to squeeze a 9" tall humanoid with wings through a three quarter to half inch gap isn't going to work well. They just aren't designed for it. Hell even something like a rat probably couldn't do it and would have to chew through the corner of the door to make make a large enough gap for it to manage.

Think of it this way, if humans had to actually cope with intelligent tiny creatures do you think doors would ever have gaps? If your GM is willing to let you play this type of character you better believe they will happily play on your false assumptions as well ;)

That all being said, the greater hat of disguise mentioned above will probably need to be a "must have" item. And the 2 Str will be a killer. .75 light/1.62 medium loads. Even with equipment being lighter for smaller size, you will barely be able to carry anything besides clothes. And medium encumbrance means a maximum Dex mod of +3, -3 to skill checks and reduced speed.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Unfortunately that is a perception based on movies and the like where it is helpful to explain or create drama/tension. Trying to squeeze a 9" tall humanoid with wings through a three quarter to half inch gap isn't going to work well. They just aren't designed for it. Hell even something like a rat probably couldn't do it and would have to chew through the corner of the door to make make a large enough gap for it to manage.

I'll probably try occasionally anyways. Only one way to find out after all.

Skylancer4 wrote:
That all being said, the greater hat of disguise mentioned above will probably need to be a "must have" item. And the 2 Str will be a killer. .75 light/1.62 medium loads. Even with equipment being lighter for smaller size, you will barely be able to carry anything besides clothes. And medium encumbrance means a maximum Dex mod of +3, -3 to skill checks and reduced speed.

I built up a lot of the character last night, and ended up using a large chunk of his monies towards a tattooed belt of giant strength +4 (his cohort is going to have inscribe magical tattoo, and it will further the background flavor for him and her. Or just give a fun little story). So, now his STR is 6. Still not fantastic, but back to where he was before and fitting for a creature such as him.

Here's what I have for my character thus far. Note: My DM does allow crafted magic items if the character had legitimate access to them and the gold to pay for it. He had access to the magic items through his cohort, or having her purchase a thing he'd like for him at a shop at normal price.

Prinselleron:

Prinselleron “Prince” of Tavriel, Young Male Atomie, LN
Mouser Swashbuckler 1 / Unarmed Fighter 1 / Master of Many Styles Monk 2 / Slayer 4

Attributes:
STR: 6 (Tattoo belt of giant strength +4)
DEX: 22
CON: 10
INT: 11
WIS:14
CHA: 18

Traits:
Disable Device Trait (Need to Find one)
Reactionary
Will Save Trait (Need to Find one)

Drawback:
Magical Klutz

Skills:
3Stealth: 8 ranks + 3 Class bonus + 6 DEX +16 Size = +34
Perception: 8 + 3 Class Bonus + 2 WIS = +12
Sense Motive: 7 + 3 Class Bonus + 2 WIS + 2 Snake Fang = +14
Bluff: 8 + 3 Class Bonus + 4 CHA = +15
Diplomacy: 3 + 3 Class Bonus + 4 CHA = +10
Disable Device: 8 + 3 Class Bonus + 6 DEX + 1 Trait Bonus +2 Masterwork Item = +20
Sleight of Hand: 1 + 3 Class Bonus + 6 DEX = +11
Knowledge (Nature): 1 + 3 Class Bonus = +4
Knowledge (Arcane): 1 + 3 Class bonus = +4
Knowledge (Planes): 1 + 3 Class Bonus = +4
Fly: Size Bonus 8 + DEX 6 = +14

Feats:
1st lv. Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler Bonus)
1st lv. Piranha Strike
2nd lv. Monkey Style (Unarmed Fighter Bonus)
3rd lv. Snake Style
3rd lv. Risky Striker (If Allowed; Slayer Talent through Rogue talent)
4th lv. Monkey Shine (MOMS Monk)
5th lv. Combat Reflexes
5th lv. Snake Fang (MOMS Monk)
7th lv. Leadership
8th lv. Ranger Combat Style (Aspect of the Beast: Claws)(Slayer Bonus)

Items: *800gp left
Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (Magic Tattoo) = 16,000gp
Belt of Giant Strength +4 & Dexterity +2 (Magic Tattoo) = 16,000gp
Masterwork Sized Thieves Tools = 100gp

Stats:
Initiative:+8
HP: 66
AC: 26, 26 touch, 10 FF [30, 30 touch, 10 FF from attacker if in same square, attacker also gets -4 attack and CMB towards those in their square.] [-2 if using Risky Striker]
Fort: +9
Refl: +15
Will: +7
CMB: -4
CMD: +6
To-Hit: +13 / +7 (+17 / +11 if in same square) [-2 if using Piranha Strike]
Damage: 1 (Natural Attack) +14 (6 DEX + 4 Piranha Strike + 4 Risky Striker) (+9 when using secondary natural attacks), +1d6 Sneak Attack when applicable.

Abilities:
Constant Speak With Animals
At will: Dancing Lights, Reduce Person (DC 15)
3/ Day: Invisibility (Self Only)
1/ Day: Shrink Item
Evasion
Panache
Deeds
Derring-do
Dodging Panache
Studied Target
Track
Sneak Attack +1d6

A lot of this is inspired by the "Songbird of Doom" build, but not quite the same. I didn't take paladin, because of my group and I still may change it further. DM may not allow Risky Striker, which is understandable and fine. I've been contemplating figuring out a way to fit Skill: Focus Stealth and Hellcat Stealth in here... cause fun.

CMB and CMD are understandably attrocious, so I'll have to look into ways of fixing that up. Couldn't find anything about having to resize tools to my character, so I assumed it was the same price in that regard. His Will is lower than I'd like it to be, but no real room for improved iron will and this is what I get for using martial classes with weak will saves.

Still in early build stages, so I may have some mistakes.


Tiny and smaller creatures use their dex rather than strength for CMB which I think you haven't accounted for.

A belt of str+4 is 16K. Your tattooed belt of str+4, dex+2 is also 16K which can't be right; but on the other hand you don't seem to have included +2 dex in the stats so maybe you removed that and didn't update the equipment notes.


Couple Mouser Swashbuckler with Vexing Dodger Rogue.

Together, they allow a huge negative to hit against you from the target opponent, two different ways to enter the target's square without drawing an AoO in addition to the normal acrobatics check, and you get sneak attack as long as at least one ally is threatening your foe.


Btw, you're getting screwed on stats if you only get to use the stat block from the bestiary as modified by the template, because they assume completely average stats (11/11/11/10/10/10 before racial modifiers) instead of the more generous ones you normally get as a PC (or even an NPC with class levels).

@avr: The CMB should indeed be +5 instead: +7 (BAB) -8 (size) +6 (DEX). Also, I calculate the CMD as 12: 10 +7 (BAB) -3 (STR) +6 (DEX) -8 (size).


avr wrote:

Tiny and smaller creatures use their dex rather than strength for CMB which I think you haven't accounted for.

A belt of str+4 is 16K. Your tattooed belt of str+4, dex+2 is also 16K which can't be right; but on the other hand you don't seem to have included +2 dex in the stats so maybe you removed that and didn't update the equipment notes.

You are correct. Apparently I had forgotten to alter the notes on the magic item.

Also, thanks everyone who pointed out that the CMB (and possibly the CMD) was off. I indeed had missed the tiny or smaller clause.

As for the stats, I believe it was his form of balancing, and a sort of cost for playing something that's not a normally available race. I'm alright with it, he told me I get to keep the magical abilities, which he could have clipped away.

I'll check out the vexing dodger. Perhaps it will be the next come next level, unless rogues can get Ranger combat styles like slayers, then I may switch it in if I like it.

Thanks everyone!

Edit: Although, Uncanny Dodge does seem like it's almost desperately needed here. Too bad my DM banned the trait that basically is Uncanny Dodge. Defensive Strategist, I think it was. Rogue might be even more of an option to look into then.


I thought 3 was the minimum ability scores for PCs?


Air0r wrote:
I thought 3 was the minimum ability scores for PCs?

Generally because it is "unplayable" but normally you are unable to play any race smaller than "small".

AKA GM discretion. We obviously aren't talking society play here...

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