I'm planning on running this first module relatively soon and I haven't had a chance to read it all yet but .... How bad would it be if the characters get no starting equipment (aside from anything necessary for their class such as holy symbols, familiars, etc.)? Has anyone had a chance to read enough to see if characters could possibly survive on only equipment that they scavenged?
For I think that if it's possible to do so, then it would add to the horror by not having access to their shiny armor, swords, etc. from the near start.
Good point. So far no one has expressed a strong desire to play either class. If I can subtlety keep them away from those, would they be able to still have a good chance of surviving?
|
Well it is possible, but you would as the GM have to add to the game such weapons otherwise the -4 Penalty to makeshift/improvised weapons is going to cause several un-survivable issues.
if you want to however, I would suggest things if people are going to start play in this style that you stress NO ONE SPECIALIZE, no weapon focus basically for the BAB +1 at level one classes. No Archetypes that specialize in a single weapon. Because they might not be there for the PC's.
So, A fighter or Barbarian in this scenario you would have to tell them it would be a good idea to take the feat 'Catch off guard' to use Improvised Melee weapons with no penalties, and who knows if they like said weapon they might develop use of it beyond the first adventure. (although this brings to mind someone using an Arm as a club, but still...)
I have an idea. What if you let them buy gear as normal, but then deprive them of that same gear once the game starts? Then the players would have to get their gear back slowly during the first adventure.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't do this. You're not going to succeed in scaring your players (which is pretty much impossible in RPGs), you're really just going to end up annoying them if the adventure isn't written around this limitation such as Skull & Shackles was.
You're already saying you won't take things like spell books and holy symbols that the classes "need to function" but when you come right down to it, martial classes need their weapons "to function" just as much. I don't think this aspect of your game will be remembered positively if you do this.
They get their gear, it's in the next room. The hard part and the fun part is figuring out whose gear is whose. There familiars and animal companions are also in that room as well.
My recommendation is to put a fighter kit, wizard kit, cleric kit, and a rogue's kit inside of that room along with few common weapons, preferably thugesque ones. I suggest a morning star, a sap, two daggers, and take a note from carrion crown and include a holy symbol of every deity (My favorite being the friar). There are also bodies of many types, so you can include hide and leather and studded leather armor's on the corpses.
I think it's a cool idea, although I would allow characters to fashion non-"improvised" clubs, quarterstaves, and slings once they're able to search the starting area. Because the -4 penalty is a killer, on top of already working with crap weapons and armor. After that, they might discover some of their old equipment in the storage area next to the main office.
Although it makes me wonder where the armed folks inside the asylum came up with crossbows and armor and swords.
I think it's a cool idea, although I would allow characters to fashion non-"improvised" clubs, quarterstaves, and slings once they're able to search the starting area. Because the -4 penalty is a killer, on top of already working with crap weapons and armor. After that, they might discover some of their old equipment in the storage area next to the main office.
Although it makes me wonder where the armed folks inside the asylum came up with crossbows and armor and swords.
Many of them were guards and the like such as Winter. Many of them brought their own gear here. Many people worked at the Asylum. Which is a neat island. If you really want to you can make an armory room. I just don't recommend things like breastplates and what not. Ustalav is pretty similar to ravenloft in that heavy armor is frowned upon generally, and is more decorative. The most common class is cavalier.
Well, let us be honest, the heaviest armor most people are going to grab is Medium armor. Heavy armor is just too damned expensive for first level characters, even if you give them max starting gold like I do.
That is very true. Generally my clerics and fighters use Scalemail until they get a breastplate.
Doctor Oathsday would straight up murder them if you started them off with no equipment. My 5-player party had trouble against her with full starting equipment and she didn't even catch them off-guard.
Yeah, but PCs are fragile at lvl 1 no matter what.
I think, I'll try to spread their equipment further apart: basic gear as written in the next room, other as loot or can be found/bargained for in the cathedral.
Ruyan.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Strip em. Why would (REDACTED) have left them fully armed and armored?
Start them in straight jackets.
Light, Armor +1, Max Dex +6 (+0 when tied), ACP 0, Spell Failure 5% (95% when tied & masked), Speed 30 (5 when tied), Weight 5 lbs.
Let them find some orderlies' uniforms
Light, Armor +2, Max Dex +5, ACP -1, Spell Failure 10%, Speed 30, Weight 10 lbs.
Even padded orderly uniforms for dealing with dangerous patients
Medium, Armor +4, Max Dex +3, ACP -5, Spell Failure 30%, Speed 20, Weight 25 lbs.
A couple dead guards could provide the ubiquitous chain shirts that everyone seems to prefer, but make their deaths gruesome... maybe it used to be chainmail, but whatever tore the bodies limb from limb has rendered all but a shirt-size part too damaged to use.
And shields can be made out of anything handy.
For Weapons:
Daggers should be plentiful; everyone carries one just as a tool, right?
Billy clubs used by the orderlies could be treated as a light mace or club.
If one of the more deranged ones happened to core his club with a bit of lead that could be a heavy mace.
A stockpile of spears, javelins, slings, darts, and quarterstaves could have been cobbled together from sticks and glass, leather and tools by the survivors the players meet first thing.
Hammers (light hammer), Mauls (warhammer), hatchets (hand axe/throwing axe), wood axe (battleaxe), sickles, and scythes could all be on site as well for wood working and gardening.
So everyone can have a weapon, and at first level, they're all about the same anyways. The only players that are going to really feel put out are the ones focusing on exotic weapons and firearms, and there's nothing saying they can't find one on display in a case or mounted on a wall or above a fireplace.
Strip em. Why would (REDACTED) have left them fully armed and armored?
Actually, according to the adventure, the players are all stripped of their gear. The gear is lying outside their cells.
Right, but why leave their gear there at all? Why did he bring their gear to the asylum? Why let a bunch of amnesiacs/mind-wipes have weapons?
"He" didn't, those weapons were likely to be given to other people or sold off. Remember, the PC's wake up in their cells, all locked up proper, without their gear.
"He" didn't, those weapons were likely to be given to other people or sold off. Remember, the PC's wake up in their cells, all locked up proper, without their gear.
Right, this is exactly why I thought of that idea to have no gear in a sack nearby conviently.
I like the idea of gear being modified into the form of home made weapons or orderly uniforms.
Then, if you are going to do that, have the PC's true gear stored elsewhere. If there's an armory of sorts in the asylum, store the starting gear there. But don't cheat the players out of their starting money.
The gear in the next room probably isn't the gear that they were carrying at the time they were captured prior to their memory wipe -- after all, weren't the characters supposed to be well beyond 1st level by that point? Most likely, that gear would be stuff taken from other people that wasn't secured because it was far less valuable than whatever the PCs would have been carrying. Said gear would, by sheer coincidence, match the sum total of whatever the players came up with as their starting gear when creating their characters as 1st level characters.
In the very first encounter, there is a table set up with various tools that are being used as torture implements. I would just place all the melee weapons on the table. Armor I would let them find with dead guards. Holy symbols, musical equipment, and other non lethal things I would just leave with the players or as dictated in the adventure.
Not sure what I would do with spellbooks (maybe limit class selection to spontaneous arcane casters?). animal companions/familiars in some cases seem also weird. I could see familiars, spirits, and eidolons following there PC's to the asylum, but not so much animal companions (Or an asylum housing them).
A counter idea is to try and make the fact that each player has all of their gear right there, neatly arranged, as creepy and disturbing as possible. Really make them question why it is all so convenient. Add one extra thing to up the creep factor.
Add in that it is all polished too :) and their weapons have been sharpened with a whetstone.
One thing to think about maybe: Characters with Spellbooks and such, should they not have spells in there, for higher levels than the character can cast at the start of the game?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing to think about maybe: Characters with Spellbooks and such, should they not have spells in there, for higher levels than the character can cast at the start of the game?
Actually for this I would think a simple fix involves having pages torn out. Someone already took out the "good stuff" before dumping them into the asylum. Or if you want it to be more random, have pages torn out but include a few higher level spells.
Logically, their gear should be in area C16.Actually, according to the adventure, the players are all stripped of their gear. The gear is lying outside their cells.Strip em. Why would (REDACTED) have left them fully armed and armored?
That's what I'll do, too.
They'll have to content with gear they'll find in the room next to the cells. This needs to suffice for braving their first task (need to adjust depending on the classes my players chose). More equipment will become available once they arrive at the chapel. Their "original" gear will be available once they hit C16--maybe some of that was looted by the people in the chapel and is available earlier.Ruyan.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm going to give them gear, bit not what they bought.
In the first room, the doctor has a dagger. The torturer tools he is using with the poor prisioner include 2 daggers, 1 hook (work as hooked hand), and 1 big, scary cross betweem a sacrificial dagger and a scalpel, which work as a kukri. Next to the furnace there is a Handaxe, and with oil and scavenged materials the alchemist can build 4 bombs. If they search around, they can find enoigh material for am extract, and a closed box with a scroll (if they manage to open with -4 Disable without tools.
In the next room they'll find 3 studded leather geat from ordeals, and 2/3 crossbows and maybe 10-15 bolts. Also some saps, and clubs. There is,also 1 guy with a holy symbol of pharasma, and slightly better gear (rapier, buckler, medium srmor) which was part of Winter's group.
Once in the corridor in front of the barricades, they'll find some Coat of Arms as decoration in one wall. If they climb there, they'll have 2 longswords and a hwavy shield. The wizard and Magus remember whatever spell they have menorized, but don't have any spellbook. They'll find one in Dr Oathsday's room That should be enough to face Dr Oathsday.
Then they'll find some extra gear in the chapel, like more holy symbols, some bolts, etc. They'll find also alchemist geat, some spellpouches, and everything should be ok from there on
My party just finished the first book, so I thought I would share how this idea went, as it's what I used.
I told the players at character creation to give me a list of items they wanted. I also told them they would not get them until later in the adventure, if they got them at all. The party was ok with this.
So when the adventure began, they had nothing. Exploring the area around them when they got out of their cells (and killed a doppelganger with broken garden sheers and bare hands) they found some padded armor (not enough for everyone), two clubs, a deck of harrow cards (moved from later in the adventure to the beginning for the cartomancer we had) and a silver holy symbol of Shelyn (also moved from later in the adventure, for our cleric).
They continued using improvised weapons and their fists until they killed 'Doctor' Latchkey. I added a bow and some arrows in the locker with the hunter clothes and silver dagger, as that seemed an appropriate place for it, our ranged focused slayer immediately hugged it like a long lost child. After that they had enough corpses to get into the chapel, where the party sucked up enough to get a handaxe and some leather armor. The party bard also went all in on diplomacy enough to get Winter to hand over her chain shirt. With that they fought Doctor Oathsday, netting them a +1 dagger (battle ended up being fought at the barricade, as it wasn't until then someone passed a sense motive on the helpless old woman). After that they were able to borrow some crossbows from the chapel guards.
A breastplate and a dull glaive were scavenged from a decorative suit of armor in the visiting room (which the cleric decided were his, much to the chagrin of our fighter). The fighter used the handaxe used for chopping wood in the chapel until the party found Red Destiny (which I changed into a scimitar to reward the fighter for being so patient with his crummy weapons so far). The patient storage room also yielded a pair for fighting fans for the bard, but her 'Oh god not the face' attitude means she will likely never actually use them.
So TLDR: Starting the party with no equipment and making them scavenge for all of their gear IS possible, and does work. However, it works when the party is aware this is how things will start and are ok with it. Also the GM has to adjust loot in the asylum in order to make sure the party gets the equivalent of their starting gear eventually. My party enjoyed it, and it helped foster a nice sense of group co-dependence and comradery.
The moment the party hit Thrushmoore, the entire party went and bought their archer the most powerful bow the towns magical item budget could support, and the best durable arrows money could buy. Leftover money was spent on a magical headband for the cleric, over his protests that he didn't want to use that much of the groups funds for himself, only relenting when the party threatened to hold him down and strap it to his head whether he objected or not.
How did the initial fight with doppelganger go? I'm worried that unarmored 1st level characters will just get cut down by her, and unarmed 1st level characters won't be able to take her down before the TPK.
It's pretty easy to "fake" that combat a bit, especially if you are worried because of your party composition. As presented, you could easily give the doppleganger any of the following:
- Flanked (By the PC, and the tortured patient) which give the players a +2 to hit
- Kneeling (because of the kick), which gives the PC a +2 to hit.
- declare her surprised (which gives the party a standard action, and removes her dexterity bonus, for another +2 to hit)
- You could improve the Kneeling to prone (describe the tortured patient tripping her)
- You could easily waste his first action with an intimidation attempt. Make her transform into one of the PC, or if she already did that, make her transform into her doppleganger normal face, and hiss.
- You could describe that she has a knife in her hand, and maybe another knife in her belt. Players could try to disarm her while she is kneeling/prone/flanked/surprised.
- If your players aren't particularly good at tactics, you could make the tortured patient to scream and shout "grab her!" when he kicks her, or even "grab her! All together!", if you want to hint them that they can use Aid Another action to give the best grappler in the party a +2 or +4
Even a party without any PC with unarmed combat or natural weapons any other stuff like that, should not have any problem to grapple and hold her. Depending how strong they are (what point buy you use, if you give them hero points, etc), they might need more or less help, but even the worse possible party should not have any problem if they have a surprise round with 3-5 PC actions, plus a free first round (if the Doppleganger tries to intimidate), and potentially a few actions in the second round too (depending on intiative), all of them being done with a bonus to hit, depending if you use kneeling or prone, and if you add flanking or not, and the Aid Another action. We are approaching 2+ success here, which may or may not be overkill, depending how much you want to risk a TPK in the first scene. Holding a grapple in the second round also has a +5. They can then pin her, tie her, or someone can use one of the disarmed daggers to stab her repeatedly while the rest of the group grapples her.
Once they move on from this starting unfair encounter, you can take your gloves off, and play the rest of the scenario more normal (ie: not wasting the first action in a intimidate check, not giving the allying NPC a free success in trip, and not giving the PC a free surprise round). In the first combat, however, my advice is you should be stealthy generous. I know my players like that I don't fudge the dice, but if presented like this, organically with the scene, the bonus make sense, and they have the upper hand in the combat, even if they are jailed, naked and unarmed.
My party will have something like +4 to hit from the stronger character, probably a +6 or so from Aid Another (one of the players is going to play Bodyguard, he might give something like -3 to +5 by himself), plus the +4 to hit prone, +2 from flanking, vs a flat footed AC 16, that's auto-hit. Next round +4 from the stronger Char, +5 to hold the grapple from grappling rules, should be easy to pin her while everybody else tries to open the door, or stab her. If they don't recognize the Aid Another, or they mess around and try to cast spells or whatever, then it might get worse.
The first fight was interesting, but doable. There were three things that really allowed the party to succeed: The 'fighter', the witch, and the slayer. The cleric unfortunately was the first party member to get the doppelgangers attention, so was relegated to making stabilize checks for pretty much all the fight. The bard decided that she felt safer hiding in one of the cells than getting killed, so after she let everyone else out of the cells, she hid for the rest of combat and didn't provide any help.
The character that would become the group fighter, since he knew the party would start unarmed, took his first level in brawler (at the end of book 1 he was brawler-1/fighter-3). He had unarmed attack, which would have helped more if every dice roll hadn't been under 5, but what it really did was allow him to facetank the doppelganger.
The witch had taken Misfortune as her first hex, and spent her first feat on Extra Hex for Cackle. The doppelganger failed her save, so was made far less likely to land a hit. This came too late for the cleric, but did minimize the damage enough that the fighter was able to absorb the hits he did take.
The slayer was ranged focused, and his first instinct was to get to the workbench of sharp things and start throwing them. His studied target, plus a high dex and some good rolls, meant that he was able to do decent consistent damage, even with the sub-par choices of weaponry. This led to him getting the foe down far enough that she tried to flee, and then the fighter finally hit and finished her off.
It was a hard fight, but it could have gone better (if the cleric had been up or if the bard had been helping), but it could also have gone worse (if the misfortune hadn't hit, or if the slayer had been the first target).
It's definitely a doable fight even without fudging the rolls, especially as written. remember the players have a few rounds where the doppelganger is completely absorbed by murdering the guy on the table, so the party is bale to position itself to the best advantage. If they are smart.