Training Enchantment (from Inner Sea Intrigue)


Rules Questions


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This enchantment grants a weapon's wielder usage of a single combat feat.

"The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon."

Would that mean, like Bane, the same enchantment could be placed on a single weapon more than once, as the feats differ each time?

Could I have a +1 Training (Ricochet Toss)/Training (Impressive Grit)/Training (Trick Shooter) Chakram, with a cumulative value equivalent to a +4 weapon?

Piling on multiple feats with this method is still fairly restrictive, due to the wording: "That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites." Thus, you can't put the entire TWF/Trip/Disarm/etc chain on a single weapon.

Silver Crusade

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*scratches chin*

Possibly?


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Google "weapons cannot have the same special ability more than once." Can Bane actually be used more than once? Then I'd say yes.

Liberty's Edge

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Given the precedent of Bane (as established in the FAQ on Bane stacking) I'd say yes... you can apply multiple different versions of the Training enchantment.

BTW, another fun way to use that enchantment is with abilities that allow you to temporarily place an enchantment on a weapon (e.g. Fighter's 'Warrior Spirit' or Occultist's 'Legacy Weapon')... nice way to get access to a combat feat appropriate to the specific situation.

Silver Crusade

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To my knowledge you can have multiple banes as along as they're against different types. Will double check.

Nvm, ninjaed by CBD :3


A conceptual difference is that multiple Banes can't stack (right, or are there overlapping eligible types?) whereas multiple Training feats could be used concurrently.

Silver Crusade

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Correct, Banes don't stack.

But that is I believe checked by the Training enchantment inability to serve as a prerequisite for actual feats or other instances of the Training enchant.

Liberty's Edge

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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
A conceptual difference is that multiple Banes can't stack (right, or are there overlapping eligible types?) whereas multiple Training feats could be used concurrently.

Multiple banes can be used concurrently too... you could get Bane against Chaotic opponents and against Evil opponents in the same round if the weapon was enchanted for both... you just wouldn't get 'double Bane' against a Chaotic Evil opponent.

Since individual different feats are not the 'same source' like multiple copies of bane, I'd think they would stack (or not) with each other normally.


Ok, I'm convinced.


CBDunkerson wrote:


BTW, another fun way to use that enchantment is with abilities that allow you to temporarily place an enchantment on a weapon (e.g. Fighter's 'Warrior Spirit' or Occultist's 'Legacy Weapon')... nice way to get access to a combat feat appropriate to the specific situation.

The build I'm checking this for makes use of WSpirit as well, but sadly...

"The fighter can also imbue the weapon with any ONE weapon special ability with an equivalent enhancement bonus less than or equal to his maximum bonus by reducing the granted enhancement bonus by the amount of the equivalent enhancement bonus."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Inner Sea Intrigue wrote:

TRAINING

PRICE +1 bonus CL 3rd
AURA faint transmutation
Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon cannot be changed.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST +1 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic weapon, creator must have the chosen combat feat and its prerequisites

As written you can place a feat with a lot of prerequisites.

I see tons of spellcasters with a weapon with little encumbrance and fly by attack in the future. We can call them gauntlets of fly by. :(
Casting a spell mid move is the dream of a lot of spellcasters.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Flyby Attack is a Monster feat, not a Combat feat, so it's not valid for the Training enchant.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Good, I missed that limit.


Improved Initiative is the first Combat feat that comes to mind for a caster just holding his dagger or staff. A dagger with this and Dueling would give you +8 to initiative while holding it.


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Barroom Brawler Training Weapon would allow you any combat feat, so with that you have even more bang for your buck for anything you would need once a day or in an emergency, like Blind Fight.


Given the way effective enhancement levels of weapons scale up exponentially in cost, this could create an excellent cost-effective arsenal for a Critical Focus build, so long as the PC is sufficiently accurate without higher enhancement bonuses. Using Quick Draw to rapidly pull out whatever +1 Training (Critical Feat) weapon is most appropriate to the enemy at hand.


'Hang on a second, let me just find my blinding rapier...'

Scarab Sages

Training Amulet of Mighty Fists? That should work, right?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I don't see why not.

Scarab Sages

What I mean by that is, say my Fighter takes an Amulet of Mighty Fists with Blind-Fight (or whatever). He's then wielding a great sword two-handed. Is the amulet considered "drawn and in hand" since it affects unarmed strikes? Or no, because without Improved Unarmed Strike both his hands are occupied?

If it works, it's basically 4,000 gold for a combat feat (and not having the slot available for an Amulet of Natural Armor). That's worth it to me on a lot of martial builds.


Gauntlets and Armor Spikes, plus y'at fighter thing Steel Headbutt.

Lots of "Always on" slots.

Scarab Sages

I'm wondering for three reasons.

First, I don't know if things like gauntlets will run into the "hands of effort" issue. So, when you're holding a Two-Handed Weapon, does that mean you don't have the gauntlet "in hand?" Seems silly, but there have been some rulings along those lines.

Second, a +1 Training gauntlet, armor spikes, or steel headbutt is going to cost at least 8300 gold. A Training Amulet of Mighty Fists only costs 4,000.

Third, since neither the Amulets of Mighty Fists nor the Training enhancement have the "must wear this item for 24 hours before receiving the benefit," then you could in theory have several Amulets of Mighty Fists with different feats depending on what situation you think you're going into, and just swap them as needed.

Also, the Cestus for spell casters seems like a good way to go. My Sorcerer wears one anyway so that he can threaten. Same for my archer Bard.

Improved Initiative would be a good feat for a gauntlet, as suggested, since it's something that you'd have out even when being surprised, and it doesn't matter if you lose the feat if the hand becomes occupied with something else during the combat.

If you're taking a feat that you want to use with your two-handed weapon, though, then it's important to know whether or not you lose that feat when you're holding another weapon in that gauntlet.


I don't think "hands of effort" applies here. You don't need to be wielding the Training weapon. It just needs to be drawn and in hand. Just because you can no longer attack with it doesn't mean you aren't still holding it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists is a good thought, but it does eat your neck slot.

Also, can you apply flat cost enchantments to it? It seems like a +1 Training gauntlet would be a pretty good candidate for the dueling property for initiative and CMD vs disarm. (+1 Training [Improved Initiative] dueling gauntlets for +8 initiative on a single item, perhaps?)

EDIT:
It's also worth considering that, assuming training can be stacked like bane, a +1 training gauntlet ends up being cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists once you get the third training enchantment on it. +4 equivalent weapon is 32,000gp, while a +3 equivalent AoMF is 36,000 gp. Heck, for that matter, you could go with two gauntlets and get a total of 6 training enchantments for the same price as a +4 equivalent AoMF.


Gauntlets or armor spikes of training now mandatory for all characters to be optimal? Who can say.

It depends if the enchantment uses similar language to Defending for when you gain the benefit of the feat, or if the feat is given so long as it is 'wielded' but not otherwise being used, like gauntlets and armor spikes. Hopefully it is the latter? I haven't actually read the enhancement itself.


ZZTRaider wrote:

I don't think "hands of effort" applies here. You don't need to be wielding the Training weapon. It just needs to be drawn and in hand. Just because you can no longer attack with it doesn't mean you aren't still holding it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists is a good thought, but it does eat your neck slot.

Also, can you apply flat cost enchantments to it? It seems like a +1 Training gauntlet would be a pretty good candidate for the dueling property for initiative and CMD vs disarm. (+1 Training [Improved Initiative] dueling gauntlets for +8 initiative on a single item, perhaps?)

EDIT:
It's also worth considering that, assuming training can be stacked like bane, a +1 training gauntlet ends up being cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists once you get the third training enchantment on it. +4 equivalent weapon is 32,000gp, while a +3 equivalent AoMF is 36,000 gp. Heck, for that matter, you could go with two gauntlets and get a total of 6 training enchantments for the same price as a +4 equivalent AoMF.

The Defending FAQ says you are probably wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't think the 'Defending' FAQ applies. For one thing, it would invalidate all combat feats that work off a total defense action. Also, the conditions of activation are specifically stated;

"...grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand."

Note, however that this also invalidates the 'training armor spikes + training boulder helmet + training boot blade + training AoMF + ... = tons o' feats' concept because those weapons are not held in the character's hands. I'd probably allow gauntlets, but technically they are never 'drawn' and more 'worn' than "in hand".

In any case, most characters are going to be limited to a max of TWO training weapons being useful at any one time... though it might be fun to see what a Marilith could do with a collection of them.


Yeah, it'd be pretty nonsensical with a lot of feats if the 'Defending' FAQ applies. I'd also like to point out the difference in language used. Defending says "... at the start of his turn before using the weapon" which does imply that you will use the weapon. Training's "... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand" language doesn't carry that implication, though.


You guys are right on how it should work, but my money is on the PDT going with the Defending FAQ.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That would be nonsensical since there's Combat Feats that don't involve attaching.

Liberty's Edge

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thorin001 wrote:
You guys are right on how it should work, but my money is on the PDT going with the Defending FAQ.

Maybe. Though, if they want to nerf it they could easily do so by saying that you cannot have multiple different Training enchantments on the same weapon or even that only one Training enchantment can apply to a given character at a time. Much cleaner than tying it to attacks and having the feat come and go from round to round.

That said... since it is from a campaign setting product, the chances of the PDT saying anything about it any time this decade are pretty close to nil.


Is it just me or is this enchantment going to have a huge impact on almost every character build? I feel like there must be some kind of Errata, otherwise every optimized Pathfinder build will soon include "+1 Training, Training, Training, Training, ... armor spikes", as armor spikes don't take up any slot and especially on later levels a free feat is so much more worth than a simple weapon enchantment.

Even with errata, the ability to put extra feats on weapons is simply awesome. My characters are suddenly able to do all the stuff I had already rationalized out before.

Liberty's Edge

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Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:
I feel like there must be some kind of Errata, otherwise every optimized Pathfinder build will soon include "+1 Training, Training, Training, Training, ... armor spikes", as armor spikes don't take up any slot

The Training enchantment only provides a feat when it IS taking up a hand weapon slot. Training enchantment on armor spikes would never actually give you any benefit unless you removed the spikes from the armor and held them in your hand as an improvised weapon.

As to multiple Training enchantments on the same weapon, that's only plausible because a FAQ said it was possible to have multiple different Bane enchantments on a single weapon. The general rule is that a weapon cannot have a given enchantment more than once. They made an offhand exception with Bane because the benefits wouldn't stack and doing multiple banes on one weapon would quickly be more expensive than just having multiple weapons with different banes. If 'training [Feat 1], training [Feat 2], training Feat 3]' becomes common I'd expect the 'no duplicate enchantments' rule to be globally re-instated.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:
I feel like there must be some kind of Errata, otherwise every optimized Pathfinder build will soon include "+1 Training, Training, Training, Training, ... armor spikes", as armor spikes don't take up any slot

The Training enchantment only provides a feat when it IS taking up a hand weapon slot. Training enchantment on armor spikes would never actually give you any benefit unless you removed the spikes from the armor and held them in your hand as an improvised weapon.

As to multiple Training enchantments on the same weapon, that's only plausible because a FAQ said it was possible to have multiple different Bane enchantments on a single weapon. The general rule is that a weapon cannot have a given enchantment more than once. They made an offhand exception with Bane because the benefits wouldn't stack and doing multiple banes on one weapon would quickly be more expensive than just having multiple weapons with different banes. If 'training [Feat 1], training [Feat 2], training Feat 3]' becomes common I'd expect the 'no duplicate enchantments' rule to be globally re-instated.

In that case, it would be really useful with vestigial arm.


But than you need to waste discoveries, which are generally stronger than feats, on that.


Derklord wrote:
But than you need to waste discoveries, which are generally stronger than feats, on that.

To be fair, it's a handy (hahahaha) discovery to have anyway so it's probably worth picking up anyway.


Handy discovery for what? Keeping wands or other items at hand (should that be "in hand"?)? Because you loose that ability if the vestigal arm's hand is holding the 'Training' weapon.

Although now that I think about it, you should be able to wear a shield on an vestigal arm and still using both normal arms. Light shield + 'Training' weapon (you can't use the weapon whith the shield on your arm, but it's still in your hand) on a vestigal arm should be doable.

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