|
I'm specifically wondering how this would work for a Pathfinder Society character, but this would be good to know in general for Pathfinder games. Anyway, I've taken an interest in the various pit spells from the conjuration school, such as Create Pit, Spiked Pit, and Acid Pit. Normally, this allows for a Reflex save to avoid falling into the pit, but would creatures who have already failed their Reflex saves vs. a tanglefoot bag still get this save? A creature that fails such a save is stuck to the ground in a particular spot so it seems like they wouldn't get a save if a pit spell was cast to appear directly beneath where they happen to be stuck in place.
In a home game, I would probably rule that they wouldn't get a save against the pit spell, but for RAW, how would this work? Thanks.
I would say they don't get a Reflex save against create pit or the like.
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.
Both spiked pit and acid pit state that they function as create pit, so that text applies to them as well.
An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed.
Most of that is just a recap of the entangled condition, except for the DC 15 Reflex save that stipulates they are unable to move. As jumping is a type of movement, that also means the character is unable to jump should they fail that save. Since they are unable to jump, they cannot jump out of the way to avoid the create pit spell or the other spells based on it.
Once the pit appears underneath them they are able to move again due to no longer being glued to a floor, although they still have the entangled condition so they still have -4 Dexterity and can only move at half speed. However, at that point it is too late for them to jump due to having no solid ground to propel themselves against so they fall.
The reflex save states in the spell description that it allows you to jump out of the way. I suppose you can still roll it for kicks since nothing about tanglefoot bag or being entangled says you can't make reflex saves, but since you're unable to jump (due to being unable to move), rolling it doesn't actually accomplish anything. Make the save -> try to jump but can't -> same effect as failing the save.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I "love" these posts where people try to say that some condition remove the reflex save to use them with the pit spells.
Unless something say it explicitly, nothing remove a reflex save.
Avoiding the pit spells require a reflex save, not a jump or move action.
Just to put out the opposite argument: the pit spells create a extra dimensional space. It don't lower the existing floor. The person hi by the tanglefoot bag is glued to the original floor.
So when the pit is created, what happen to the original floor?
a) it disappear, so the person is no more glued to it;
b) it is somewhat deformed in a forth dimensional space and go to form the border of the pit, so the glued person is glued outside the pit.
c) it go to form the floor of the pit and all stuff that is part of the floor go with it, so the glued creature don't take falling damage as he is moved together with the floor.
All the interpretation above are as credible as the interpretation "you are glued to the floor, so you can't get a reflex save, but when it is the time to fall being glued has no effect".
Saying "you get the normal save" is way simpler and less confusing.
hey, the rules say 'standing' so if I just get my trip master ally to trip them and then I cast the pit, now they don't get a save at all because they are prone and not standing.
That's how it works, right?
I'm with Diego, you get a reflex save, if you succeed you are stuck to the floor just outside the area of the pit - because magic.
|
|
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.Both spiked pit and acid pit state that they function as create pit, so that text applies to them as well.
I'd like to think that this explains it. I hadn't noticed the specific "jump to safety" language before, but this would seem to indicate that you wouldn't get a Reflex save. While the floor is there, you're stuck to it so you can't jump away. The instant the floor disappears, the floor is no longer there so you're not stuck, but you also have no surface off of which to attempt to jump. Unfortunately, that's simple physics, and time and again, it has been proven that science does not work in D&D.
|
|
A curios question is what will happen if you cast this spell on the deck of a ship, puttying the main mast in the area of the spell. The reply can be related to what happen to a person glued to the floor.
A) The mast isn't supported by anything anymore and collapse (and a 2nd level spell would do a lot of damage to a ship).
B) When the spell distort space the floor in the area of effect is distorted and become the sloped area round the pit, so the mast still stay, but when seen by 2 dimensional creatures it appear bent.
c) the floor area is moved to another dimension for the spell duration, and the same happens to stuff anchored to it.
|
|
If the mast is physically connected to the deck, then the deck is no longer is a 'horizontal surface of sufficient size', anymore than you could cast create pit underneath a wall.A curios question is what will happen if you cast this spell on the deck of a ship, puttying the main mast in the area of the spell. The reply can be related to what happen to a person glued to the floor.
A) The mast isn't supported by anything anymore and collapse (and a 2nd level spell would do a lot of damage to a ship).
B) When the spell distort space the floor in the area of effect is distorted and become the sloped area round the pit, so the mast still stay, but when seen by 2 dimensional creatures it appear bent.
c) the floor area is moved to another dimension for the spell duration, and the same happens to stuff anchored to it.
So if a creature is physically connected (glued) to a floor it is no longer a 'horizontal surface of sufficient size'?
It don't say "a horizontal surface of without any obstruction". What is enough to make an area invalid?
A meadow is an horizontal surface or the grass change that?
A tree change that? How high it should be?
A flat piece of terrain with some stone protruding?
Finding a really flat piece of terrain in a natural ambient will be really hard, the spell would work only on artificial floors clear of any obstruction.
|
|
You tell me. Does a wall block the spell, or can you use create pit to automatically undermine a wall? What about the side of a mountain?
What does it mean to have a 'horizontal surface of sufficient size'? If obstructions don't block surfaces, then when wouldn't you have a horizontal surface?
A mast is a constructed part of the ship's deck. A glued person is not.
How would you run it if a person tried to create a pit with a mast in the middle?
My point is that the spell don't say that the horizontal surface should be "free of obstacles". It must be "of sufficient size", so it is not possible to create the pit if the horizontal area is less than 10'x10', so walls or mountain sides will block it, but, at least in my native language, a horizontal area isn't the same of a flat area.
The spell speak of a ship deck, but it would be practically impossible to find a medieval/renaissance ship with a 10'x10' piece of a deck without some part of the ship going under or above the deck.Even your opinion that something glued to the floor don't count as part of the structure is questionable. You say that glue is off. What is enough? Nails? Screws? Joints?
Personally, while non RAW, I like the idea of the floor being twisted through a fourth dimension when the spell is cast and it becoming the rim of the pit.
That resolve a lot of problems:
- unconscious persons that make the save are moved with the floor while the pit open, while those that fail slide in the pit;
- what happens to stuff that is connected with the floor but isn't so large that it block the spell;
- what happen if you cast the spell if the area include a man hole or trapdoor, and so on.
With the current rules, what happen if we came from downstairs and open a trap door that is in the area of the pit? Currently the trapdoor exist from below, when you open it the are isn't a horizontal surface of 10'x10' anymore, but that is not checked after the spell is cast, so what happen?
You risk falling into the pit as soon as you body is all above the horizontal surface?
The pit has a trapdoor in the middle of it and anyone can use it?
It is some kind of opening working in only one direction?
Extra dimensional spaces need a lot more explanations if used routinely.
|
I would expect that a mast goes through the deck as part of attaching it to the rest of the ship, so I'd rule that as not a truly horizontal surface. Likewise, a tree rooted in the ground would block the spell.
A wall with foundations extending through the floor might also block the spell. But a wall that was just blocks piled on the floor would probably not block the spell (and collapse into the pit).
|
|
I would expect that a mast goes through the deck as part of attaching it to the rest of the ship, so I'd rule that as not a truly horizontal surface. Likewise, a tree rooted in the ground would block the spell.
A wall with foundations extending through the floor might also block the spell. But a wall that was just blocks piled on the floor would probably not block the spell (and collapse into the pit).
So a pile of rocks is a horizontal surface while a meadow with a single shrub isn't?
Sorry, but it seem horribly arbitrary.And still don't resolve the problem of a trapdoor. While it is closed it is a horizontal surface, so a valid area for the spell, but it still exist for the people coming from downstairs while for those outside it has disappeared.
Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material.
Nothing about tanglefoot bags removes the ability to make a reflex save. From a strictly RAW viewpoint, they get a save.
I would also argue they still get their safe from a RAI standpoint, and I think the dexterity penalty from being entangles applying to their save already makes them more likely to fall into the pit so it's fair.
Nothing about tanglefoot bags removes the ability to make a reflex save. From a strictly RAW viewpoint, they get a save.
I would also argue they still get their safe from a RAI standpoint, and I think the dexterity penalty from being entangles applying to their save already makes them more likely to fall into the pit so it's fair.
Just to be clear, are you stating this from the perspective of getting a save while glued to the floor (from a failed save against tanglefoot bag)?
I'm having trouble seeing things from that standpoint, given the save represents moving out of the way -- how would you envision that working? Genuinely curious here, as it's entirely possible there is some way for someone to move out of the way from a pit when they're unable to move, but I can't think of how such a scenario would come to pass. Ascalaphus stated my argument more eloquently than I did -- you actually move on a successful save and the spell description states that the save lets you jump to a safe square. While you could handwave that away as fluff/flavor -- indeed I would disregard that text when it makes sense, such as if a player wants to run away instead, possibly due to a low ceiling or other obstruction that prevents one from jumping -- the fact remains (to me) that it is a form of movement since you are actually changing what square you're in, and you are explicitly not allowed to move because you failed the save against the tanglefoot bag.
If you weren't glued down by the bag (aka you succeeded the save against it), then there is no question that you get a reflex save against the pit, at the appropriate penalty for being entangled.
@Diego: arbitrary sounds about right for this. I can't think of a simple rule for what counts as a large enough horizontal surface and what does not, and instead leave it up to GM fiat. If I'm the GM, I'd give the players the benefit of the doubt and try to figure out a way to let it happen without the effect being too powerful for its level. If your definition of arbitrary includes some way for them to make a reflex save to get out of the way despite being glued to the floor, there's enough leeway in the RAW to have that happen due to the vagaries of what happens to the floor that you were previously glued to.
I agree with the others that say once the floor is gone they are no longer stuck to it.
You were stuck to something. Now you are not. Make a reflex save. Pretty straightforward.
People are reading too much into the word "jump". If you had to literally jump to avoid the spell, then a slug or any other creature anatomically incapable of jumping would not get a saving throw against the spell. Not that it's really relevant, because once the floor is gone you can move how you want. Remember, applying physics to Pathfinder ends in madness. Always.
Now you could use this trick to get other spells to land without a save, such as surrounding somebody with a wall of stone spell. This trick certainly does have its uses, but it just simply doesn't help if you get rid of the structure they were attached to.
My way of thinking is not only do you get a Reflex save, you should get a bonus to it as well... Why you may ask?
Your feet has a sticky substance on them that stops movement. Creat pit removes what you are stuck to, not the sticky substance. All you would need to do is touch the side wall to stick to it instead. With a good save, you could now be stuck to the side wall 2' to 3' down. Which would give you partial cover.
That sounds like a cool and interesting scenario Dr Styx. However it's pretty clearly in houserule territory, no matter how cool :P
|
|
Nothing about tanglefoot bags removes the ability to make a reflex save. From a strictly RAW viewpoint, they get a save.
I would also argue they still get their safe from a RAI standpoint, and I think the dexterity penalty from being entangles applying to their save already makes them more likely to fall into the pit so it's fair.
Just to be clear, are you stating this from the perspective of getting a save while glued to the floor (from a failed save against tanglefoot bag)?
I'm having trouble seeing things from that standpoint, given the save represents moving out of the way -- how would you envision that working? Genuinely curious here, as it's entirely possible there is some way for someone to move out of the way from a pit when they're unable to move, but I can't think of how such a scenario would come to pass. Ascalaphus stated my argument more eloquently than I did -- you actually move on a successful save and the spell description states that the save lets you jump to a safe square. While you could handwave that away as fluff/flavor -- indeed I would disregard that text when it makes sense, such as if a player wants to run away instead, possibly due to a low ceiling or other obstruction that prevents one from jumping -- the fact remains (to me) that it is a form of movement since you are actually changing what square you're in, and you are explicitly not allowed to move because you failed the save against the tanglefoot bag.
If you weren't glued down by the bag (aka you succeeded the save against it), then there is no question that you get a reflex save against the pit, at the appropriate penalty for being entangled.
The problem is how rapidly the floor disappear.
If the disappearance is instantaneous I will question how you make a reflex save even if you aren't glued.If it take some fraction of second, during which the floor is changing into the pit floor or disappearing there is a time when you are partially glued and get a chance to jump away, even if a noticeable penalty (0 dexterity isn't a joke).
If the spell is meant to negate a reflex save if you can't move, it should say so, as the characters are always entitled to a save against effects that allow it.
@Diego: arbitrary sounds about right for this. I can't think of a simple rule for what counts as a large enough horizontal surface and what does not, and instead leave it up to GM fiat. If I'm the GM, I'd give the players the benefit of the doubt and try to figure out a way to let it happen without the effect being too powerful for its...
As long as we all recognize that this can lead to table variations, I agree.
For me a surface with enough stuff that isn't easily movable isn't suitable for for the spell, while small items that will not slow down movement or are easily movable don't stop it.|
|
The problem is how rapidly the floor disappear.
If the disappearance is instantaneous I will question how you make a reflex save even if you aren't glued.
If it take some fraction of second, during which the floor is changing into the pit floor or disappearing there is a time when you are partially glued and get a chance to jump away, even if a noticeable penalty (0 dexterity isn't a joke).
If the spell is meant to negate a reflex save if you can't move, it should say so, as the characters are always entitled to a save against effects that allow it.
Agreed. I wish it was more specific, but this spell does already take away a save that is normally allowed, specifically for Bull Rush maneuvers into the pit. Normally, forced movement into a hazard will always allow a save to avoid it, but this spell specifically disallows such a save so apparently, you aren't always entitled to a save against effects that allow it when it comes to this spell. Hence the continuing confusion.
|
|
Agreed. I wish it was more specific, but this spell does already take away a save that is normally allowed, specifically for Bull Rush maneuvers into the pit. Normally, forced movement into a hazard will always allow a save to avoid it, but this spell specifically disallows such a save so apparently, you aren't always entitled to a save against effects that allow it when it comes to this spell. Hence the continuing confusion.
This isn't precisely true. There's no general rule that you can't forced move people into dangerous spaces, but so many forced movement powers have that restriction that it starts to look like it. Bull Rush however doesn't have that restriction; you can always try to bull rush people off into pits, be they natural or Created. Reposition can't do that, but Bull Rush is a whole lot less flexible than Reposition in where you can send enemies.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The thing about Create Pit is that after it appears, there's no more ground for you to stand on without going in. So if you don't want to fall in (Reflex) you have to move to a different square.
The spell isn't really explicit in what happens to the floor - does it move downward or is it "overlaid" with a pit? It looks like the second, because if it just moves downward you wouldn't fall but just go down an elevator. So if you cast Create Pit on an area with a creature glued to it, one of two things could happen. 1) The creature is detached when the floor "disappears" and may fall. 2) You can't cast Create Pit there because it's no longer a horizontal surface. That's a bit of a GM rules call.
If you go with (1), then can a creature that's detached leap to safety before gravity drags it down? Eh, why not. Parachute jumpers manage to alter their course without anything to hold on to as well.
---
Yes, I didn't answer what happens if you try to come up to a pit from below. I have no idea what happens then. Undefined in the rules.
|
|
Agreed. I wish it was more specific, but this spell does already take away a save that is normally allowed, specifically for Bull Rush maneuvers into the pit. Normally, forced movement into a hazard will always allow a save to avoid it, but this spell specifically disallows such a save so apparently, you aren't always entitled to a save against effects that allow it when it comes to this spell. Hence the continuing confusion.The problem is how rapidly the floor disappear.
If the disappearance is instantaneous I will question how you make a reflex save even if you aren't glued.
If it take some fraction of second, during which the floor is changing into the pit floor or disappearing there is a time when you are partially glued and get a chance to jump away, even if a noticeable penalty (0 dexterity isn't a joke).
If the spell is meant to negate a reflex save if you can't move, it should say so, as the characters are always entitled to a save against effects that allow it.
As Ascalaphus said it isn't even an exception, only something the spell writer felt was a good idea to make explicit.
If something change the rules it should do it in a explicit way, especially when it remove the chance of a save.A row of text that seem more fluff than rule "jump to safety" isn't enough for that.
|
|
If you go with (1), then can a creature that's detached leap to safety before gravity drags it down? Eh, why not. Parachute jumpers manage to alter their course without anything to hold on to as well.They use the lift granted by falling at terminal velocity to alter their course. Not at all the case when the floor disappears out from under you. You fall straight down.
Or maybe the save represent grappling the border of the pit and dragging yourself to safety instead of using your legs to jump?
It has already been asked several times:
What happen to a creature that can't jump but is free to move?
|
|
Given that someone occupies a 5' square, and that they should be adjacent to at least one of the walls, that seems reasonable to me.
But then, does the reflex save mean that they are now hanging by the edge, or do they get to pull themselves up and stand up all without taking an actual action?
A successful save mean that you avoided the spell, so you are standing up.
This spell has a lot of problem when you start analyzing it.
Let's say that you are in a 10'x10' room, with only one 5' wide exit and the caster is on the door. If you make the save you " jump to safety in the nearest open space". But that open space is behind the caster.
You get to pass through him without the need of a acrobatic check?
You make a 10' jump (or even 15' if you were on the other side of the room) from a standing position without problem?
The "nearest open space" is 30' up. You save. Your cleric in full plate with an acrobatic bonus of +1 jump 30' into the air and land safely?
You are in a weird room made of suspended platforms and the "nearest open space" is 30' below and 20' on the left. You "jump" and land safely and without damage?
On one hand when you make a save you make it, on the other the result can be weird.
I would amend the spell to something like:"Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to be shifted to safety in the nearest open space adjacent to the pit. A space with an allied creature count as open if no other space is available, but both creatures suffer the squeezing penalties until one move.
If there aren't open spaces adjacent to the pit with a successful reflex save you end at the bottom of the pit, unharmed."
A lot of text, but it would resolve the majority of the problems.
|
|
It should probably be noted that the "jump to safety" language was actually added in a later update so we sort of have to consider it more significantly than we have been so far in terms of intent.
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to avoid falling into it.
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.