So, what if I decide to play as a Hobgoblin?


Ironfang Invasion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
J-Bone wrote:
I got the chance to play a Hill Giant in Giantslayer, from Rite Publishing's fantastic In the Company of Giants book and it made for a fantastic experience. Sure it added work to my GM but she and I had talked about it ahead of time and I managed to get her pretty excited for the possibilities it entailed. Thing about playing these RPGs, no matter your race your an exceptional representative of that race. So the idea that you could be an exceptional hobgoblin who goes against the societal momentum is a recipe for an interesting story, if your GM is on board to tell it. My exceptional Hill Giant, who I played very much as the gentle giant type, added a lot of depth to the game as I was able to take the position of the insider who rebelled against the BBEGs. Ultimately, so long as you have a good story to tell, and a GM willing to help tell it, I say go on with your Hobgobby self!

Having played in that game i can partly confirm this.

The giant was a fun character and provided a fresh change. However the AP was significantly changed, not to say nearly one complete book replaced by something else that connected the story and also provided the giant with a background and a reason to join the party.
So, tons of extra work.
Both the giant player and the GM also are quite experienced and have a talent for impro theatre play. Mainly that provides the fun there, because it allows for very deep and fun roleplay. Without that, it would not have worked.

On the other hand i can also confirm what JJ said further upthread, not matter how good, such a character does hog spotlight and shadow others out, just because he will always be more special. That might be fine in some cases and was in this, because it was fun for everyone.
There needs to be great care however that the rest of the players gets enough spotlight and opportunities too, and that their perhaps comparatively "mediocre" character story can stay awesome as well.
Else the opportunity to play a "proud nail" needs to be provided for everyone and that will most certainly lead to GM headaches and player competitivenes.

Thing is, it has some consequences, because now we have a situation where we get a lot of "even more special snowflake" characters, because nobody wants to stand back and play in the second row, but tries to bring their special character to the front, done in their own way. Wether that is by making weird mechanical concepts, optimizing, playing against type and AP, or alignment or whatever doesn´t make a difference.
Only it might be jugded and perceived in different ways. Something i saw break several good groups already.

Playing against type seems like a trend at the moment to me, one i don´t like overall, because i think James Jacobs is pretty much right in most cases with his analysis. This is just like if you have someone with an outstanding powerful PC in a group, dominating every and any encounter, it´s just on the roleplay side of the game.
And since the game consists of both parts equally, it is on most cases just as bad and game disturbing.


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By the way, Creative Director post relevant to the tangential sub-thread of this thread.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Axial wrote:

Suppose I roll up a Hobgoblin PC for this campaign. What would that entail?

I recall that Second Darkness strongly discourages and all but forbids players to play as Drow. This is understandable, given the Drow's origins and their secrecy in the Pathfinder campaign setting. However, while Hobgoblins are almost universally Lawful Evil, they are not bound to evil in the same way that (setting-wise) Drow are.
{. . .}

I can't get my hands on a Second Darkness Player's Guide (this and the one for Legacy of Fire were not available for free download as separate PDFs), but I understand that in part Paizo was (apparently with some real justification) afraid of a flood of Drizz't do'Urden clones. Since such a calamity has not materialized, I would like to see this prohibition removed or at least alleviated when they release Second Darkness Anniversary/Hardcover Edition.

If not for real life issues that have prevented me from playing anything (and will continue to do so at least through October), I would be up for playing a Drow in Second Darkness, or in principle a Hobgoblin in Ironfang Invasion, except that whereas I have a well-developed character concept for the first(*), I don't have one for Ironfang Invasion, and no guarantee that when I get one that it will be a Hobgoblin . . . But I can appreciate the overall concept.

(*)I haven't read any of the Drizz't do'Urden novels, but I checked on Wikipedia to make sure that I hadn't accidentally created a Drizz't do'Urden clone . . . Check.

You really can't play a drow in second darkness

It's not an issue with a certain encounter
It's literally the entire AP as written
If you have read or played the AP you wouldn't understand
And I can't explain without spoiling the whole AP
It's literally not possible to play a drow without ruining the whole campaign.


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Axial wrote:

I was thinking of the best way to handle this and I decided to play a Hobgoblin paladin of Iomedae.

I think being a paladin would offset a lot of the mistrust and discrimination that would come his way. If nothing else, the sight of a hobgoblin standing tall in shining full-plate with Iomedan regalia would give them pause.

Essentially, I think that having a good-aligned god(dess) who still represents war, militarism, and discipline to follow would make sense as a catalyst to push a hobgoblin to good. He's still a ruthless, obedient soldier like the rest of his cousins, but now he fights for the good guys. And being LG, he makes an excellent foil to the characteristic LE alignment of his race.

I would probably think you had killed a paladin and stolen his gear. A holy symbol and armor aren't going to save you from being attacked on sight. Maybe if you are somehow already known by the town as not being "like those other ____", but if you are unknown then "arrows away" it is.

edit: The above assumes I don't ignore the fact that you are a PC. That is most likely how the NPC's would treat an NPC hobgoblin.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Axial wrote:
Suppose I roll up a Hobgoblin PC for this campaign. What would that entail?

That, without a doubt, would be a question for the GM. Some GM's will say, "the people would execute you in 5 seconds." Other GM's would see what you're doing and say, " OK, but you are going to be at a penalty to all social rolls and people will be slow to trust you unless they know you beforehand." It really could go either way.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Axial wrote:

I was thinking of the best way to handle this and I decided to play a Hobgoblin paladin of Iomedae.

I think being a paladin would offset a lot of the mistrust and discrimination that would come his way. If nothing else, the sight of a hobgoblin standing tall in shining full-plate with Iomedan regalia would give them pause.

Essentially, I think that having a good-aligned god(dess) who still represents war, militarism, and discipline to follow would make sense as a catalyst to push a hobgoblin to good. He's still a ruthless, obedient soldier like the rest of his cousins, but now he fights for the good guys. And being LG, he makes an excellent foil to the characteristic LE alignment of his race.

I would probably think you had killed a paladin and stolen his gear. A holy symbol and armor aren't going to save you from being attacked on sight. Maybe if you are somehow already known by the town as not being "like those other ____", but if you are unknown then "arrows away" it is.

edit: The above assumes I don't ignore the fact that you are a PC. That is most likely how the NPC's would treat an NPC hobgoblin.

about the edit:

I meant to say it assumes that I do ignore the fact that you are a PC. Otherwise the invisible PC sign floating over your head might save you....


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Hey guys, it's called a helmet and or hood.

Does a hobgoblin on heavy armor look much different t than a human in heavy armor ?
I picture thus character looking like lord soth
Armor , cloak and evil red eyes peering out

Take rich parents as a trait and have at least banded armor with full helm
Take a little bluff and disguise to cover your appearance/voice and mannerisms

How are hobgoblins that different than the mass of half orcs or Orc characters that have been played?


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Pendagast wrote:
Take rich parents as a trait and have at least banded armor with full helm

Ugh, f++#ing bourgeoisie hobgoblin adventurers.


Do different races smell different?
ie can you tell someone is an elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, etc just by there smell?
If you can in your game then the hobgoblin in armor will not be possible but at the same time it does make impersonating a hobgoblin easier by just smelling like one and wearing concealing clothing options.

MDC


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As the GM of the game of Giantslayer that had a Hill Giant player in it, I found it to be a great laugh and a lot of fun. That character added a whole extra side to the campaign and a lot of humour. It did require me to modify things in the AP, but I tend to modify a lot for each character as they request or as I see more conducive to a greater story. So it really didn't require too much extra work on my end. I would say in regards to the Hobgoblin, so long as your GM is fine with it and you may be ready to except the consequences of how NPCs react to you, then go for it. The Hill Giant in my game always stayed outside of the human settlements in my game as I made it clear reactions would not be so welcoming. As a result he missed out on some key bits of interaction but the player was willing to accept that to play his character.


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Now that I think of it, a character formerly enslaved by Hobgoblins might be cool too...give him/her some personal interaction with them, and a reason to hate them.


Pendagast wrote:

Hey guys, it's called a helmet and or hood.

Does a hobgoblin on heavy armor look much different t than a human in heavy armor ?
I picture thus character looking like lord soth
Armor , cloak and evil red eyes peering out

Take rich parents as a trait and have at least banded armor with full helm
Take a little bluff and disguise to cover your appearance/voice and mannerisms

How are hobgoblins that different than the mass of half orcs or Orc characters that have been played?

Half-orcs are accepted in society to some extent at least due to the game saying they are a core race. Orcs are more monstrous and not trusted as much, just like hobgoblins. That is the difference between the half-orc and the other two. Another issue with this topic is that he is trying to play the enemy, not so much that he is playing a hobgoblin. Almost any other campaign the hobgoblin can get by without the "I'm a PC" sign floating over his head saving him. However, in this one I don't see people being as open to conversation and rational thinking. If he was lucky he would be taken prisoner for interrogation, and likely never released.

edit: Most races such as elves have certain builds, and they probably have a certain way of speaking. Also wearing a hood/helmet 24/7 is not a likely proposition. It also does not protect someone from DC 10 knowledge check. Disguise might, but if he can't openly be a hobgoblin it likely also defeats the purpose.


^Note that Giantslayer specifically lists Half-Orcs as having some acceptance in Trunau, although they also face considerable suspicion. Pathfinder just doesn't have Half-Hobgoblins, though.


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Unless something has the scent ability, smelling s hobgoblin wouldn't necessarily be different than Smelling anyone else.
There have been numerous Orc pcs over the years
And specific Orc feats
And orcs have always been "the enemy"

Hobgoblins probably have a strange accent like any foreigner
But considering one of the APs consisted of pcs wearing dead elf skin to wander around unnoticed like they were just part of the crowd, I assume a little disguise, performance etc wouldn't be out of order.

Heck I wouldn't even tell the other pcs
I'd let them discover it.

I play a a drow in one campaign and the pcs don't know it
He's even been described as having strange mannerisms , accent and body features for an elf

How massively different is a hobgoblin from a half Orc?
Generally the hobgoblins are lawful evil
This one maybe lawful neutral

We have parties full of tiefling, and even regular goblins pretending to be gnomes on these boards

Heck id go for if you enjoy rp

Can you be a lawful neutral fell rider?


The more I think if it, the more it sounds like fun

Kind of a headless horseman mystic at first
Dark and shadowy, intimidating and something suspicious about the helmeted cloaked figure on a overly muscled mount.

Why would the character switch sides?
His unit was betrayed in a scramble for power?
Political idealist/out cast?
Opportunist merc looking to make the most money?

I don't think there's anything wrong with a black knight type character where it's not readily noticeable what race he is.

How long before people knew Spider-Man was a white teenager?


Fell Rider has no alignment restriction on it. It is even very thematically fitting, although a bit mechanically problematic (due to class-level-scaling abilities, but same problem for any Cavalier) for a Hellknight, although by default you probably don't want a Hellknight in this particular AP. On the other hand, maybe you could pull it off as a Hellknight order sending one of their armigers (who will later upgrade to full Hellknight) to show those Molthuni idiots how to clean up their mess. If you did, play up the Hellknight aspect since Hellknights seem to be much for going undercover anyway, and people might be so intimidated by the Hellknight (and the implied Chelaxian connection, even if it isn't always true) that they might temporarily ignore the Hobgoblin race (especially once you get the fancy Hellknight armor).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
That's the question you should be asking your GM,not us. Consider reading the Player's Guide as well.

Alchemical glue on her armor buckles and a Big Push. no more Paladin!


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Re: orcs as PCs: orcs are specifically called out as possible PC races in, of all things, the extremely xenophobic Ustalav in the Carrion Crown AP. It warns you'll have a tough time, but still.
(It's because Ustalav borders Belkzen. It actually gives similar warnings to barbarian class characters, if a bit less.)

Tacticslion wrote:

Huh.

I was hoping to do something like the OP myself, but work hard to hide it, in order to minimize my screen time.

The loose character idea was: yeah, it sucks, but it makes sense; but my brethren are in the wrong here, and if I can prove my worth, I can eventually be open, even if many never accept me. But not today.

Oh well. Guess no GM's gonna let that fly now. :/

(Concept loosely based on an organization of lawful good government assassins - not the class - who were an agency of five strange mutant creatures I was running who kept their true nature secret at all times by heavy investment in disguise. I'd have to consider it carefully, and it'd be something I'd have to consider how to handle to avoid inconveniencing anyone else, but it seems... unlikely, given the vehemence, here. Makes sense, one supposes.)

((First two purchases are always a ring of sustenance and hat of disguise - though the 'hat is only for those creatures that need it. Anything with a continuous keep watch effect is next, and now I'm the perfect guard...*))

* No wonder everyone finds me creepy, I'm covered head to toe in feature-obscuring stuff, and I stay awake all night staring out at everything! I find me creepy, and I'm a lawful good guy and playing me XD!!**

** Well, okay, not anymore...

I realized something, and I don't know if I'd ever mentioned it here: I've been visualizing hobgoblins "wrong" - at least for Golarion's style. I've been picturing them more like the old 3.5 Monster Manual instead of the slightly goofier Golarian style. It doesn't break my point, but it does make it more difficult to sell it. Thought that was worth a mention in communication, though.

Liberty's Edge

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Is it just me or do the Golarion hobgobs kinda look like the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings Urakai?


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It's doable, but it takes effort from both the PCs and the GM. The PC just can't galavant around and pretend that they are special snowflakes. And the GM can't just have everyone act like Cecil Price. That's just lazy. Both sides have to be committed to making this work.


Well, the PG answered Axial's initial question : No, you can't play a hobgoblin.


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SJ_Fil wrote:
Well, the PG answered Axial's initial question : No, you can't play a hobgoblin.

Hey, I read the PG too.

And for the record, it basically says "You can, but you shouldn't."


LOVED that they put that in there, but ya know, some are going to get their GM to OK it regardless, just hope they DO create all those problems (and rightly so) for that character. Way more of a hindrance and a party burden that its worth

just my 2 cents in this

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Hobgoblins in PF remind me of Hobgoblins in Kingdoms of Kalamar.


Well, it's like everything else in the game: it depends on the players and GM. Depending on the game master and group, it might be a burden, and it might not.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say on this topic.


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What about a half hobgoblin?


Hm, it might be interesting if the Hobgoblin is, perhaps, *really* obviously foreign. What if one plays a Hobgoblin from Tian-Xia?

Different dress, different armor, accent, maybe different skin color... enough to make people not immediately suspect them a member of the invasion.

I do recommend doing whatever you can to make your alignment clear, I.e. literally carry a battle standard around showing opposition to the Ironfang


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Samy wrote:
He still illustrates that it's possible to write the story so that you don't get shot on sight or dominate the story.

Star Trek is a franchise about politics, discovery, and diplomacy. Ironfang Invasion is a story about chopping hobgoblins into little bits to make them stop chopping townsfolk into little bits.

You could write a Star Trek story where Worf or others like him just get a lethal phaser dose to the face... But then you wouldn't actually have Star Trek. Similarly you could run a pathfinder game where a hobgoblin PC manages to get by without arrows sprouting in his eyesockets - but that game wouldn't be the Ironfang Invasion AP.

It really is comparable to bringing your Lamashtu Antipaladin to a hell's Rebels game. While there is probably some way to make it work at the table, you end up having to basically re-work the entire thing. Which is fine if that's what you wanna do, but at that point you might as well just homebrew from the start.

And yes, if you are drastically re-writing an AP for one player's character, that character is literally dominating the story.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Davia D wrote:

Hm, it might be interesting if the Hobgoblin is, perhaps, *really* obviously foreign. What if one plays a Hobgoblin from Tian-Xia?

Different dress, different armor, accent, maybe different skin color... enough to make people not immediately suspect them a member of the invasion.

I do recommend doing whatever you can to make your alignment clear, I.e. literally carry a battle standard around showing opposition to the Ironfang

still a hobgoblin.

and it still doesn't add anything to the story.

Dark Archive

Not really the best idea for this ap, to play a hobgoblin. Besides mistrust, vilified, and many other things, you might get knifed if your sleep. Seriously. You want to play the same race that just bur n ed their hones and killed or enslaved their loved ones, no matter ho good a paladin you could be, you are still a hobgoblin.

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