Swallowing your swallower whole


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If monster A and B both have swallow whole, and A swallows B, can B bite and grab A while still grappled (essentially from the inside), then swallow A in turn? Assume that grab/grapple size limitations aren't a concern(there are some creatures that ignore that restriction; all you'd need is a pair of them to butt heads against one another).

As absurd as it sounds, I think it just might be legal. After all, you can turn an attacker's grapple against them, and if they begin their turn grappled by a creature with swallow whole, they get swallowed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

No.

Quote:
Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature.

So, Swallow Whole only works on creatures smaller than the swallower.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

With the stated assumption that size limitations are not a concern this seems legal, absurd as all Gehenna, but legal. I am picturing a beast with an extradimensional gut, something like Nibbler from Futurama, doing this. Now I'm hankering to homebrew this critter, small.size, natural prey, purple worms.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This would be a very fun trick to pull on a druid that likes to swallow enemies whole.

So you swallow the creature whole. It bites into your stomach and begins sucking, after a few moments of confusion you are swallowed completely by the creature and stuck in its stomach.

Your party runs away in terror.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I KNOW there's a monster that can swallow things it's size or perhaps even larger out there! it's literally got a dimensional gut. this is in a bestiary, I just don't know where.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

What about two gingerbread witches? ;)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

While we have so many swallowing fans here, let me ask this..
What's the limit? I had a huge plant eat my wife's human character. Could I have swallowed the gnome bard too? What about once she died? Don't worry, I'm still marred.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I just want to point out that for it to happen, one creature (the first swallower) has to be turned inside-out like a t-shirt, otherwise there is no way it can happen.
The problem is not with available space. You just can't suck something from the inside without opening one side AND turning it inside-out

This of course has no bearing in rules, but may break suspension of disbelief, and definitely should break the victim's spine.

Dark Archive

No dm with a brain would allow you to do that.Just sayin.

Scarab Sages

4 people marked this as a favorite.

See this? These are the kind of posts we should get on the forums. Well done, Ravingdork.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think it could happen, but it would be like tossing a bag of holding into a portable hole. Everything within 10' gets swallowed up and sent to the elemental plane of tripe.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

and this is how turducken is made..


2 people marked this as a favorite.

From the actual rules: A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple.

Attempting to grapple back is not an allowed option, so no, this scenario is not possible.


When Sharky get swallowed he always Bite his way out. He never think before about grappling whatever swallow him from inside so it can't Bite him again. This sound very smart and kind of stupid at same time - maybe he look for something big to get swallowed by so he can try it!

@Calth - Cast spell, attack with bludgeoning weapon, or drink healing potion not on list either, but Sharky think you can do those things while inside monster. Grapple monster from inside only different because it makes no sense. Funniest part is monster can't move anymore, which make even less sense. Maybe Sharky Bite its spinal cord and legs stop working - wait - goblin chief not know about medical science - oh well...


Ravingdork wrote:

If monster A and B both have swallow whole, and A swallows B, can B bite and grab A while still grappled (essentially from the inside), then swallow A in turn? Assume that grab/grapple size limitations aren't a concern(there are some creatures that ignore that restriction; all you'd need is a pair of them to butt heads against one another).

As absurd as it sounds, I think it just might be legal. After all, you can turn an attacker's grapple against them, and if they begin their turn grappled by a creature with swallow whole, they get swallowed.

It's a bit absurd to ask a rules question, when the first thing you ask us to do, is to ignore a rule that's crucial to the question.


Sifting through bestiaries for a 1st party creature which can swallow larger things whole. So far I only have the Taotieh which unfortunately wouldn't really work here.

EDIT:
Also found Dwiergeth, and Ketesthius. If 3pp is allowed, Gulper Eels could try this, as both say they can swallow creatures larger than themselves.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So that's at least 3 first-party monsters.


Basically, assuming we're dealing with monsters that can Swallow Whole creatures their own size, like a pair of gingerbread witches, the question becomes: Can you grapple something that's swallowed you?

The answer should be: Not if you're still considered grappled while swallowed. It should be that simple. They control the grapple, tough potatoes.

PRD wrote:
A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition

Okay, but here's the place where you could doubt: Can you turn the grapple against them, as per standard "what to do while grappled" rules, without exiting the stomach?

Common sense dictates "no". The rules imply "no". Technically, though, implication is all they do—it presents two options you can take in order to escape...

PRD wrote:
A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature's total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple.

...but it doesn't cancel out obvious options like "cast a Stilled spell" or "draw a weapon", so those clearly aren't meant to be the only options. Just the only ways you can escape. But if you aren't trying to escape...

Look, it's all b$$&!~+$, but it's not officially Wrong b~!!&&%!. Sure, the swallower doesn't keep the grappled condition, but neither does a grabber that takes the -20 to its check, and nothing in the rules says you can't turn the tables on them:

PRD wrote:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

I would certainly assume the rules don't stop me from taking control of such a grapple as that mentioned above, so by the same token, the fact that a Swallower doesn't gain the grappled condition wouldn't mean I can't take control of that grapple. Which means I can take control, then swallow.

As such, my verdict? Yeah, there's an argument to be made here. And it's fringe enough that I'd probably even allow it—the sorts of creatures that can swallow creatures their own size are already f$&!ing with reality anyways.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

After some extensive research to look into this, I can safely say that I won't be going to that section of the Internet again. Also, I probably won't be able to get any sleep tonight.

...oh, right, the rules. I agree with the assessment that the rules do not strictly prohibit you from taking control of a grapple and attempting to swallow your target whole. However, it is a very significant defiance of logic, practically "act while dead" level, so I would not begrudge any GM who said you can't make two witches do an ouroboros trick, and doubt the one who allows it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Notably: This would not get you out of the penalties for being swallowed. Yes, I'm serious. Go ahead and swallow them, but you yourself won't be un-swallowed by this. Sorry! Haha!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Okay, so clearly "Swallowing your swallower whole" ain't gonna be the next "Succubus in a grapple". Who'd have guessed?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cavall wrote:

While we have so many swallowing fans here, let me ask this..

What's the limit? I had a huge plant eat my wife's human character. Could I have swallowed the gnome bard too? What about once she died? Don't worry, I'm still marred.

This is the best typo.


Swallow says you lose the grappled condition when you swallow your target. It also says target must be grappled and in the creatures mouth, in order to be swallowed... so if one is swallowed one can not have the swallower grappled and inside his own mouth.

Starting a grapple is not an option for a swallowed creature.

I'd have to go with no, it's not a thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If I bit your interior, are you not "in my mouth?"

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Ravingdork wrote:
If I bit your interior, are you not "in my mouth?"

I'd say no and that it is obvious. But I'd be wrong, as you are asking the question.


Um.... would this basically be the case like two snakes that swallow eachother from the tail and makes a snake loop?

If anything, that would be the most logical example i can think of that allows 2 enities swallow eachother that is not porn.


Paradozen wrote:

Sifting through bestiaries for a 1st party creature which can swallow larger things whole. So far I only have the Taotieh which unfortunately wouldn't really work here.

EDIT:
Also found Dwiergeth, and Ketesthius. If 3pp is allowed, Gulper Eels could try this, as both say they can swallow creatures larger than themselves.

If any of these creatures has a Ring of Freedom of Movement in their pockets, they can put it on after being swallowed to negate the grapple effect.

EDIT: Another application of these shenangians is to put an infinite number of the same creature inside of each other like a set of nesting dolls, a new one bursting out of the one just killed by the players.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

After years of searching, I've finally found it: the rules question absurd and bad, it causes me to minimize the Rules Forum. It's kinda liberating, actually.

-Skeld


Skeld wrote:

After years of searching, I've finally found it: the rules question absurd and bad, it causes me to minimize the Rules Forum. It's kinda liberating, actually.

-Skeld

I think this one was tongue-in-cheek. (Or vice-versa if the grapple is reversed...)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Skeld wrote:

After years of searching, I've finally found it: the rules question absurd and bad, it causes me to minimize the Rules Forum. It's kinda liberating, actually.

-Skeld

Happy to be of service! You didn't think "Ravingdork" was just my name, did you? :D


Sah wrote:
Cavall wrote:

While we have so many swallowing fans here, let me ask this..

What's the limit? I had a huge plant eat my wife's human character. Could I have swallowed the gnome bard too? What about once she died? Don't worry, I'm still marred.
This is the best typo.

Doh. Well. 6 of one.

Either way, does anyone have an answer?


ShroudedInLight wrote:

This would be a very fun trick to pull on a druid that likes to swallow enemies whole.

So you swallow the creature whole. It bites into your stomach and begins sucking, after a few moments of confusion you are swallowed completely by the creature and stuck in its stomach.

Your party runs away in terror.

How can you give Druids Swallow Whole?


If you are a monster with swallow whole of its own size, what happens if you swallow yourself?

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

If you are a monster with swallow whole of its own size, what happens if you swallow yourself?

/cevah

You redo a scene from a famous Beatles movie.


Akkurscid wrote:
Swallow says you lose the grappled condition when you swallow your target. It also says target must be grappled and in the creatures mouth, in order to be swallowed...

Correct. However, the swallowed target can then make a grapple attempt to give the swallower the grappled condition, as normal. You don't become immune to the grappled condition when you swallow your target—you just don't take penalties for applying the condition. Just like a creature that uses Grab at a -20 penalty!

Quote:
Starting a grapple is not an option for a swallowed creature.

No, but attempting to seize control of a grapple is.


Skeld wrote:

After years of searching, I've finally found it: the rules question absurd and bad, it causes me to minimize the Rules Forum. It's kinda liberating, actually.

-Skeld Someone Who Hates Fun

But can you minimize the Rules Forum if it's already minimized you?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Swallow says you lose the grappled condition when you swallow your target. It also says target must be grappled and in the creatures mouth, in order to be swallowed...

Correct. However, the swallowed target can then make a grapple attempt to give the swallower the grappled condition, as normal. You don't become immune to the grappled condition when you swallow your target—you just don't take penalties for applying the condition. Just like a creature that uses Grab at a -20 penalty!

Quote:
Starting a grapple is not an option for a swallowed creature.
No, but attempting to seize control of a grapple is.

The problem I see is you are giving the swallowed creature more options than are available to it...

SWALLOW wrote:
If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

When you are swallowed you are limited to two options, cut your way out or escape. Taking control of the grapple or any other combat maneuver is not on the list of available actions.

PS While escaping a grapple and taking control of a grapple are both grappling checks... only escape is allowed when one is swallowed.

Hope this helps =)


Akkurscid wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Swallow says you lose the grappled condition when you swallow your target. It also says target must be grappled and in the creatures mouth, in order to be swallowed...

Correct. However, the swallowed target can then make a grapple attempt to give the swallower the grappled condition, as normal. You don't become immune to the grappled condition when you swallow your target—you just don't take penalties for applying the condition. Just like a creature that uses Grab at a -20 penalty!

Quote:
Starting a grapple is not an option for a swallowed creature.
No, but attempting to seize control of a grapple is.

The problem I see is you are giving the swallowed creature more options than are available to it...

SWALLOW wrote:
If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

When you are swallowed you are limited to two options, cut your way out or escape. Taking control of the grapple or any other combat maneuver is not on the list of available actions.

Hope this helps =)

Your bolded text outlines options to a swallowed creature trying to cut themselves free; this is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of options. Surely, a spellcaster can make a Concentration check to cast a spell, or a Monk can take a Swift action to use a Ki point, or a creature with the Swallow Whole ability can make a Bite attack. The only thing limiting a swallowed creature is the Grappled condition.


Cuup wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Swallow says you lose the grappled condition when you swallow your target. It also says target must be grappled and in the creatures mouth, in order to be swallowed...

Correct. However, the swallowed target can then make a grapple attempt to give the swallower the grappled condition, as normal. You don't become immune to the grappled condition when you swallow your target—you just don't take penalties for applying the condition. Just like a creature that uses Grab at a -20 penalty!

Quote:
Starting a grapple is not an option for a swallowed creature.
No, but attempting to seize control of a grapple is.

The problem I see is you are giving the swallowed creature more options than are available to it...

SWALLOW wrote:
If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts
Your bolded text outlines options to a swallowed creature trying to cut themselves free; this is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of options. Surely, a spellcaster can make a Concentration check to cast a spell, or a Monk can take a Swift action to use a Ki point, or a creature with the Swallow Whole ability can make a Bite attack. The only thing limiting a swallowed creature is the Grappled condition.

While I agree there are a few limited options you could do that do not involve you escaping from the swallowing creatures gullet... I just don't see reversing the grapple as one of them. Biting? Yeah you could do that, it counts as piercing so you could use bite to escape, but that does not put the other creature "in your mouth."

If you are saying "BY RAW it does" then why ignore "BY RAW you have only two options when swallowed?"

We'll just have to agree to disagree. =)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Swallowing your swallower whole All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.