Psionics flavor and sci-fi issues


Advice and Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Two of the people I game with refuse to use psionics or anything considered psychic because they perceive it as science fiction, and that interferes with their immersion. They are okay with third party content in general, and psionics/OA would fit many of the concepts they've tried to create over the years. This also occurred when one of them wanted to play something exactly like the Pathfinder ninja, but would not because they didn't want an Oriental-themed character.

I'd like some advice for convincing them that they can attach whatever flavor they like to the mechanics provided by a class, and their character doesn't have to be just like the fluff description or iconic image. Is it possible?


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definitely. I would seriously start by telling them exactly this: "You can attach any flavor to the mechanics."

although I have other advice, there is one thing that you mentioned that actually bugs me. I may be a minority in this, but to me psionics is NOT sci-fi or modern, and in fact I CANNOT imagine psionics in those settings unless magic could fit.
I know, that sounds weird, but to me psionics is my magic, to the point that vancian casting is ditched for psionics and then I call psionics magic (I mean, full refluff before anyone even sees the Ultimate Psionics book). I've done that for so long, that psionics as anything other than magic just rubs me wrong. maybe its the mana err i mean Power Points.
That said, psionics in other systems is generally fine cause it is flavored to fit. pathfinder and 3.5 psionics is super neutral setting-wise. Your players are applying a setting theme to those setting neutral rules.
I guess I am saying: If your players can't seperate their perception from rules, then just don't call it psionics. Call it rune magic (just as suggested in the book).


Air0r wrote:

definitely. I would seriously start by telling them exactly this: "You can attach any flavor to the mechanics."

although I have other advice, there is one thing that you mentioned that actually bugs me. I may be a minority in this, but to me psionics is NOT sci-fi or modern, and in fact I CANNOT imagine psionics in those settings unless magic could fit.
I know, that sounds weird, but to me psionics is my magic, to the point that vancian casting is ditched for psionics and then I call psionics magic (I mean, full refluff before anyone even sees the Ultimate Psionics book). I've done that for so long, that psionics as anything other than magic just rubs me wrong. maybe its the mana err i mean Power Points.
That said, psionics in other systems is generally fine cause it is flavored to fit. pathfinder and 3.5 psionics is super neutral setting-wise. Your players are applying a setting theme to those setting neutral rules.
I guess I am saying: If your players can't seperate their perception from rules, then just don't call it psionics. Call it rune magic (just as suggested in the book).

Psionics is definitely SCI-FI, New Age, Comics and modern based. Psychics, however DO have an older Victorian literary tradition that reached a peak with Lovecraft and a renewal with comics such as Hellboy. Prior to Pathfinder, they saw a use in the Masque of the Red Death setting, not as classes but as traits like Psychometry (Known to players as "Touch And Scream")

Psionics also has the baggage of being associated with it's earlier D+D incarnations including the awful without redemption, First Edition incarnation.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Air0r wrote:

definitely. I would seriously start by telling them exactly this: "You can attach any flavor to the mechanics."

although I have other advice, there is one thing that you mentioned that actually bugs me. I may be a minority in this, but to me psionics is NOT sci-fi or modern, and in fact I CANNOT imagine psionics in those settings unless magic could fit.
I know, that sounds weird, but to me psionics is my magic, to the point that vancian casting is ditched for psionics and then I call psionics magic (I mean, full refluff before anyone even sees the Ultimate Psionics book). I've done that for so long, that psionics as anything other than magic just rubs me wrong. maybe its the mana err i mean Power Points.
That said, psionics in other systems is generally fine cause it is flavored to fit. pathfinder and 3.5 psionics is super neutral setting-wise. Your players are applying a setting theme to those setting neutral rules.
I guess I am saying: If your players can't seperate their perception from rules, then just don't call it psionics. Call it rune magic (just as suggested in the book).

Psionics is definitely SCI-FI, New Age, Comics and modern based. Psychics, however DO have an older Victorian literary tradition that reached a peak with Lovecraft and a renewal with comics such as Hellboy. Prior to Pathfinder, they saw a use in the Masque of the Red Death setting, not as classes but as traits like Psychometry (Known to players as "Touch And Scream")

Psionics also has the baggage of being associated with it's earlier D+D incarnations including the awful without redemption, First Edition incarnation.

What makes it sci-fi? Besides it's name.

Outside of naming convention everything psionics DOES is what magic does, but using a point system and focus mechanic instead of a slot system.


Psychic magic as presented in Occult Adventures is not sci-fi in the slightest. RGG just released Ultimate Occult which presents classic psionics in the psychic magic format. To say this is sci-fi is simply erroneous and ignorant of the truth.


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Psionics is just the "power of the mind" and is in no way just "sci-fi", it transcends genres. Hell, Galadriel in LOTR could be considered psionic, as she had crazy mind powers. All those old myths and legends of mind warping witches, faeries, etc can all be redefined as psionic. Psionics is just a form of magic that's different from arcane, just like divine magic is different from arcane.

Also, there is literally nothing in Occult Adventures that in any way resembles sci-fi. Hell, the APG had the Alchemist, which is a heck of alot more sci-fi than Occult classes are. Psionics in PF has more to do with spirits and other planes than science.


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I don't know if the "[t]wo of the people [you] game with" are the GMs, but if they aren't, play a character with the psionics rules, and don't tell them that's what you're doing. See what they think of the character.

I remember a "make Naruto characters" thread on the Wizards of the Coast message boards back in the 3.5 days. Nearly all of them were better represented by psionics than traditional magic. I can't imagine anyone seriously considering Naruto to be sci-fi.


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Point out to them Psionics is more like the spell casting found in the overwhelming majority of fantasy literature? Because in most fantasy stories a character runs out of magic instead of having only prepped 2 Chain Lightnings that day. So Psionics is a vastly superior representation of magic for most fantasy stories and that's just a fact.


Air0r wrote:

What makes it sci-fi? Besides it's name.

Outside of naming convention everything psionics DOES is what magic does, but using a point system and focus mechanic instead of a slot system.

Names are not a trivial consideration. But consider where the term was first used... Fringe science, Pulp sci-fi magazines, and comic books. Mention psionics to any number of people and those who don't give you blank stares will probably give you back either X-Men, Scanners, or the Power of Matthew Star, assuming they don't go all New Age and crystal pyramid on you.

And then of course there's the official Wiki Dictionary definition:

Psionics is the study of paranormal phenomena in relation to the application of electronics. The term comes from psi ('psyche') and the -onics from electronics (machine). It is closely related to the field of radionics. There is no scientific evidence that psionic abilities exist.

Psychic powers however pretty much date back to Victorian literature and gypsy lore.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Air0r wrote:

What makes it sci-fi? Besides it's name.

Outside of naming convention everything psionics DOES is what magic does, but using a point system and focus mechanic instead of a slot system.

Names are not a trivial consideration. But consider where the term was first used... Fringe science, Pulp sci-fi magazines, and comic books. Mention psionics to any number of people and those who don't give you blank stares will probably give you back either X-Men, Scanners, or the Power of Matthew Star, assuming they don't go all New Age and crystal pyramid on you.

And then of course there's the official Wiki Dictionary definition:

Psionics is the study of paranormal phenomena in relation to the application of electronics. The term comes from psi ('psyche') and the -onics from electronics (machine). It is closely related to the field of radionics. There is no scientific evidence that psionic abilities exist.

Psychic powers however pretty much date back to Victorian literature and gypsy lore.

LMAO The Power of Matthew Star?? I thought I was the only person on Earth who remembered that show even existed! Well done Drahliana!


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Lavawight wrote:

Two of the people I game with refuse to use psionics or anything considered psychic because they perceive it as science fiction, and that interferes with their immersion. They are okay with third party content in general, and psionics/OA would fit many of the concepts they've tried to create over the years. This also occurred when one of them wanted to play something exactly like the Pathfinder ninja, but would not because they didn't want an Oriental-themed character.

I'd like some advice for convincing them that they can attach whatever flavor they like to the mechanics provided by a class, and their character doesn't have to be just like the fluff description or iconic image. Is it possible?

I suggest to play a psion but flavor yourself as different. Like using rune magic as the book says. Then gauge the reaction from the two.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Air0r wrote:

What makes it sci-fi? Besides it's name.

Outside of naming convention everything psionics DOES is what magic does, but using a point system and focus mechanic instead of a slot system.

Names are not a trivial consideration. But consider where the term was first used... Fringe science, Pulp sci-fi magazines, and comic books. Mention psionics to any number of people and those who don't give you blank stares will probably give you back either X-Men, Scanners, or the Power of Matthew Star, assuming they don't go all New Age and crystal pyramid on you.

And then of course there's the official Wiki Dictionary definition:

Psionics is the study of paranormal phenomena in relation to the application of electronics. The term comes from psi ('psyche') and the -onics from electronics (machine). It is closely related to the field of radionics. There is no scientific evidence that psionic abilities exist.

Psychic powers however pretty much date back to Victorian literature and gypsy lore.

lol

Thumbs up for the Powers of Matthew Star. Way to pull an obscure one out there!


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Brother Fen wrote:


lol

Thumbs up for the Powers of Matthew Star. Way to pull an obscure one out there!

I finally got the reference from a Youtube search.


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Anzyr wrote:
Point out to them Psionics is more like the spell casting found in the overwhelming majority of fantasy literature? Because in most fantasy stories a character runs out of magic instead of having only prepped 2 Chain Lightnings that day. So Psionics is a vastly superior representation of magic for most fantasy stories and that's just a fact.

This solidly represents my perspective on the topic.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've used psionic classes before, and I'm using a cryptic in the current campaign. They don't have an issue with psionics being in the game, but it conflicts with the flavor of their own characters because they're so firmly attached to the new age perception of the word. Changing the name to runic magic makes zero difference for some reason; they're still stuck on the original imagery. "It is what it is." one of them said, and the argument that it is what you MAKE it did no good.

I haven't tried what Anzyr suggested yet, that's a good idea.


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Lavawight wrote:

I've used psionic classes before, and I'm using a cryptic in the current campaign. They don't have an issue with psionics being in the game, but it conflicts with the flavor of their own characters because they're so firmly attached to the new age perception of the word. Changing the name to runic magic makes zero difference for some reason; they're still stuck on the original imagery. "It is what it is." one of them said, and the argument that it is what you MAKE it did no good.

I haven't tried what Anzyr suggested yet, that's a good idea.

I can't say I understand; psionics as presented is pretty much exactly what a sorcerer does for magic, only with different mechanics. It's magic from within, not magic from without. Which is the sorcerer.

Sure, wizards study, and clerics pray, but both psions and sorcerers do what they do from the force of will. So... yeah.

Science fiction involves technology. Psionics doesn't. So... I don't understand. Sure, psionics fits better than wizardry in a high-tech setting, but that doesn't in any way mean psionics doesn't fit in a low-tech setting.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Air0r wrote:

What makes it sci-fi? Besides it's name.

Outside of naming convention everything psionics DOES is what magic does, but using a point system and focus mechanic instead of a slot system.

Names are not a trivial consideration. But consider where the term was first used... Fringe science, Pulp sci-fi magazines, and comic books. Mention psionics to any number of people and those who don't give you blank stares will probably give you back either X-Men, Scanners, or the Power of Matthew Star, assuming they don't go all New Age and crystal pyramid on you.

And then of course there's the official Wiki Dictionary definition:

Psionics is the study of paranormal phenomena in relation to the application of electronics. The term comes from psi ('psyche') and the -onics from electronics (machine). It is closely related to the field of radionics. There is no scientific evidence that psionic abilities exist.

Psychic powers however pretty much date back to Victorian literature and gypsy lore.

That may all be true. However, nothing in D&D or Dreamscarred's Pathfinder psionics deals with electronics (although you could say that since brains run on electricity, they are biological machines).

There also is a significant overlap between D&D/Dreamscarred psionics and Paizo's psychic spellcasting in overall methods as well as in powers.


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Lavawight wrote:

I've used psionic classes before, and I'm using a cryptic in the current campaign. They don't have an issue with psionics being in the game, but it conflicts with the flavor of their own characters because they're so firmly attached to the new age perception of the word. Changing the name to runic magic makes zero difference for some reason; they're still stuck on the original imagery. "It is what it is." one of them said, and the argument that it is what you MAKE it did no good.

I haven't tried what Anzyr suggested yet, that's a good idea.

To be honest, those two guys sound kinda jerky. Here's the deal: there is no such thing as the RP Police. They're players and so are you, and you have absolutely no responsibility to please them. Play what you want to play as long as it's within the rules, and they have no say in it.

Besides, the Cryptic class doesn't have any sci-fi vibe to it at all, it reads quite a bit like a fantasy rogue/mage.


Anzyr wrote:
Point out to them Psionics is more like the spell casting found in the overwhelming majority of fantasy literature? Because in most fantasy stories a character runs out of magic instead of having only prepped 2 Chain Lightnings that day. So Psionics is a vastly superior representation of magic for most fantasy stories and that's just a fact.

Good idea, but I think the BESM d20 Advanced Magic or Dynamic Spellcasting System is superior to a point buy system when representing magic in literature. Not that everyone has it. So psionics is the next best thing. :-) The only thing people have against it is that it's math heavy. For instance, Wish is the most powerful spell in the game with a 101 Casting DC.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
the Power of Matthew Star

... d-... dang-it... it's... it's 168 videos - 168 VIDEOS - I had stuff to do with my life! >:I


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Ignoring filing off serial numbers and making mechanics mean what you think it represents rather than the other way around, I can see the argument against Psionics. Ultimate Psionics has suggestions to make it less like alien scifi psionics but that's besides the point.

But Psychics? Why? too Victorian maybe. Too renaissance okay. But I'm not seeing Psychic magic as scifi at all.


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Malwing wrote:
Ultimate Psionics has suggestions to make it less like alien scifi psionics but that's besides the point.

Memory is a thing. Not a good thing, but a thing. I'm maybe misremembering that text in UP being about getting rid of the crystal themes, no alien/sci-fi. Huh.


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Anguish wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Ultimate Psionics has suggestions to make it less like alien scifi psionics but that's besides the point.
Memory is a thing. Not a good thing, but a thing. I'm maybe misremembering that text in UP being about getting rid of the crystal themes, no alien/sci-fi. Huh.

It's rune magic.


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Ultimate Psionics literally covered this exact problem.

There's a whole section about changing Psionics to Runic Magic and keeps the same basic mechanics, but has a completely different flavor.

Also Spell Points/Power Points are by far superior to the traditional Vanican spellcasting method.

EDIT: Ninja Piano Man


Anzyr wrote:
Point out to them Psionics is more like the spell casting found in the overwhelming majority of fantasy literature? Because in most fantasy stories a character runs out of magic instead of having only prepped 2 Chain Lightnings that day. So Psionics is a vastly superior representation of magic for most fantasy stories and that's just a fact.

I've read my share of fantasy literature, and I'm going to say right out that I can' think of a single example that gives me a magician that reminds me of Jean Grey, or Prof X, or for that matter, Matthew Star, as some examples of psionics in media.

Most examples of fantasy literature incorporate arcane language and gestures which must be precisely executed. I don't know where you get psionics from that.

"But did you say the words precisely?" "I did.... more or less."

The most that you can say is that a large part of fantasy literature is not modeled on Vancian spellcasting. But that does not make it psi.

For that matter power points are far from the only alternative to Vancian casting. Ars Magica for instance uses what are effectively skill checks vs fatigue.. with levels of fatigue adding penalties to such checks. That I'd warrant is FAR more representative of fantasy spellcasting than psionic power points which have always felt like they came out of a Final Fantasy game to me.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Ultimate Psionics literally covered this exact problem.

There's a whole section about changing Psionics to Runic Magic and keeps the same basic mechanics, but has a completely different flavor.

Also Spell Points/Power Points are by far superior to the traditional Vanican spellcasting method.

EDIT: Ninja Piano Man

Superior in what way? They may make for more player convenience, but I see no advantage in flavor. To me, they take magic, and make it more like a video game resource. And if that's the way you like it, fine.

But that's far from a universal truth.


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Just call psionics another form of magic, "the magic of unlocking the mind", why is this even such an issue?

Call it rune magic, crystal magic, mentalism, occultism, whatever. There is literally not a single thing in Ultimate Psionics or Occult Adventures that describes psionics as science and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. It can be flavored into whatever the OP wants it to be, and there are no rules stopping that. The only issue the OP has is he's playing with two people that have 1) Very limited imaginations, and 2) A complete inability to stay in their lanes.

I'm so glad I play with a group that doesn't sweat stuff like this.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


I've read my share of fantasy literature, and I'm going to say right out that I can't think of a single example that gives me a magician that reminds me of Jean Grey, or Prof X, or for that matter, Matthew Star, as some examples of psionics in media.

Then you haven't read enough of a share. Psionics takes a place as basically any magic system that is based primarily on will rather than arcane gestures.

Any series with a finite "energy limit" has this, from anime such as Naruto, DBZ, Negima, etc. to more traditional fantasy like Wheel of Time (technically their power source is infinite, but practically it is limited to a small pool of "points) or the Night Angel Trilogy (which has an actual in-universe "I can see this" limit on magic that each user has, though it can be replenished some ways), or the Death Gate Cycle (which, mind you, does in a few case require gestures to be executed, but effectively they come out closer to a visual Display than a somatic component).

Jean Grey telekinetically moving something is practically indistinguishable from Rand Al'Thor weaving air to bring his cup across the room.

This is a perception issue, not a flavor one.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


For that matter power points are far from the only alternative to Vancian casting. Ars Magica for instance uses what are effectively skill checks vs fatigue.. with levels of fatigue adding penalties to such checks. That I'd warrant is FAR more representative of fantasy spellcasting than psionic power points which have always felt like they came out of a Final Fantasy game to me.

Ah, someone who might like Dynamic Spellcasting in Advanced d20 Magic. Too bad it's out of print and the .pdf isn't being sold.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I feel like I need to clarify that they don't make a big deal about it, and they're fine with me using it. The mechanics would just really suit some of the characters they've tried to build over the years, and I can't seem to convince them that it's ok to reflavor a set of mechanics as something other than the written description.


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Lavawight wrote:
I feel like I need to clarify that they don't make a big deal about it, and they're fine with me using it. The mechanics would just really suit some of the characters they've tried to build over the years, and I can't seem to convince them that it's ok to reflavor a set of mechanics as something other than the written description.

So, do that yourself. Have an NPC or something that uses psionics, but never call out the names of the powers or abilities and/or change them to sound more fantasy. I've often reflavored psionics to ki/chi, for example. Energy Bolt looks like a Hadoken. ;)

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

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Psionics is an exotic "other." The question is what type of other? Your player is saying that, in a vacuum of context, that is sci-fi. So give him something else.

In my games, psionics is the magic of the Orient. It's filled with Buddhist or Hindu imagery, and practitioners often look like gurus or yogis. That's my psionics, and it has its crystals and whatnot, but it's definitely not scifi. I've given it a thing to be.

You've got to give it a thing to be.


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Lavawight wrote:

Two of the people I game with refuse to use psionics or anything considered psychic because they perceive it as science fiction, and that interferes with their immersion. They are okay with third party content in general, and psionics/OA would fit many of the concepts they've tried to create over the years. This also occurred when one of them wanted to play something exactly like the Pathfinder ninja, but would not because they didn't want an Oriental-themed character.

I'd like some advice for convincing them that they can attach whatever flavor they like to the mechanics provided by a class, and their character doesn't have to be just like the fluff description or iconic image. Is it possible?

My advice: Respect their preferences as long as they respect yours. Not everyone is going to have the same breadth of comfort zones.


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Erik Freund wrote:

Psionics is an exotic "other." The question is what type of other? Your player is saying that, in a vacuum of context, that is sci-fi. So give him something else.

To be fair and honest, as I've shown, there is far from a lack of context for the term.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Erik Freund wrote:

Psionics is an exotic "other." The question is what type of other? Your player is saying that, in a vacuum of context, that is sci-fi. So give him something else.

To be fair and honest, as I've shown, there is far from a lack of context for the term.

Perhaps, but as others have pointed out, it simulates plenty of other mediums very well too. Though your other post about respecting each others preferences is pretty solid. I like it.

Basically: Have an open mind people. Don't assume something is something else because of its name. (And if you want to say it is, I'd like some compelling evidence that doesn't pull from unrelated sources, though that is my preference.)
healthy debate time?

The Exchange

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Of course, their wizards aren't required to wear a star-spangled robe and their druids aren't required to perform blood sacrifices to make the seasons turn, but somehow a psychic is required to fly around in a spaceship. The only way past a preconception is to see somebody else break it a few times, I guess.


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I'm still confused how someone could think OA material is sci-fi....


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
I'm still confused how someone could think OA material is sci-fi....

Less so than psionics, but probably *because* of psionics. That doesn't extend to the kineticist, because of the Avatar series.

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