It's been a while since one of these was posted, and more classes have come out (both 1st and 3rd party) so I was curious what kind of combinations people have come up with.
I like the combination of Kineticist and Wizard. You can speck your spells however you like and you never have to worry about combat instances since you have an unlimited supply of blasts that deal scaling damage.
Wizard//Magus. Basically a Magus plus full Wizard casting and class features, great synergy with Kensai or Hexcrafter especially. Good perks from Arcane Schools include Evocation-Admixture, Conjuration-Teleportation, and Divination-Foresight.
Wizard//Investigator. The personification of a Swiss Army Knife, especially with Empiricist.
Paladin//Oracle. You can either go Life Oracle to be an excellent healer, or Lore/Lunar/Nature for great CHA synergy.
Paladin//Sorcerer (Psychic Bloodline). Cast in heavy armor with no spell failure, and cast Psychic spells with near-impunity (as you gain Fear immunity early on, eventually Charm and Compulsion immunity as well, and a great Will save for just about everything else).
Inquisitor//Monk. Works especially well with Zen Archer. One nasty trick is to be a Gnome (or use Racial Heritage) to take Bewildering Koan, and use Inquisitor class features to gain 2x WIS to Bluff (using it as the skill's base stat in place of CHA with Conversion or Heresy Inquisition, then adding it again as a bonus with the Heretic archetype).
Cleric (Evangelist) // Inquisitor (Monster Tactician). Real Ultimate Power. Books will be thrown at you.
I still like ranger/wizard. All good saves, good skills and skill points, full casting wizard spells, minor divine casting, d10 hit dice, full BAB, and a built-in bodyguard.
I'd name him "Magnitude," 'cuz he's a one man party! Pop, pop!
I still like ranger/wizard. All good saves, good skills and skill points, full casting wizard spells, minor divine casting, d10 hit dice, full BAB, and a built-in bodyguard.
I'd name him "Magnitude," 'cuz he's a one man party! Pop, pop!
Wizard//Magus. Basically a Magus plus full Wizard casting and class features, great synergy with Kensai or Hexcrafter especially. Good perks from Arcane Schools include Evocation-Admixture, Conjuration-Teleportation, and Divination-Foresight.
Wizard//Investigator. The personification of a Swiss Army Knife, especially with Empiricist.
Paladin//Oracle. You can either go Life Oracle to be an excellent healer, or Lore/Lunar/Nature for great CHA synergy.
Paladin//Sorcerer (Psychic Bloodline). Cast in heavy armor with no spell failure, and cast Psychic spells with near-impunity (as you gain Fear immunity early on, eventually Charm and Compulsion immunity as well, and a great Will save for just about everything else).
Inquisitor//Monk. Works especially well with Zen Archer. One nasty trick is to be a Gnome (or use Racial Heritage) to take Bewildering Koan, and use Inquisitor class features to gain 2x WIS to Bluff (using it as the skill's base stat in place of CHA with Conversion or Heresy Inquisition, then adding it again as a bonus with the Heretic archetype).
Cleric (Evangelist) // Inquisitor (Monster Tactician). Real Ultimate Power. Books will be thrown at you.
There is alot of divine love in that group. One of my players will love this.
Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric: Excellent Flavor if you worship Irori, and the two classes compliment each other pretty well. The Ecclesitheurge covers the Unchained Monk's poor Will Save, and the Unchained Monk makes the Ecclesitheurge's restrictions about not wearing armor not really a problem anymore in addition to providing Excellent BAB and a d10 hit die.
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Sorcerer: Pretty similar to the above combination. 3 Excellent Saves, Full BAB, d10 hit die, excellent unarmored AC, and 9th-level casting. It should be noted that the Scaled Fist archetype makes all of the Monk's Wisdom-based bonuses scaled off of Charisma instead. You probably want to go with the Draconic Bloodline, since otherwise the flavor clash is a little iffy. It's a pretty good fit anyway, since the Draconic Bloodline's natural armor boost is a good fit for a front-line spellcaster.
Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric: Excellent Flavor if you worship Irori, and the two classes compliment each other pretty well. The Ecclesitheurge covers the Unchained Monk's poor Will Save, and the Unchained Monk makes the Ecclesitheurge's restrictions about not wearing armor not really a problem anymore in addition to providing Excellent BAB and a d10 hit die.
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Sorcerer: Pretty similar to the above combination. 3 Excellent Saves, Full BAB, d10 hit die, excellent unarmored AC, and 9th-level casting. It should be noted that the Scaled Fist archetype makes all of the Monk's Wisdom-based bonuses scaled off of Charisma instead. You probably want to go with the Draconic Bloodline, since otherwise the flavor clash is a little iffy. It's a pretty good fit anyway, since the Draconic Bloodline's natural armor boost is a good fit for a front-line spellcaster.
I love any combination that includes Monk. My favorites include Monk//Rogue and Monk//Paladin. The latter grants some insane armor bonuses and more benefits than you can shake a stick at, assuming you don't mind never having fun in life. The two you mentioned are very intriguing combinations, and I'm anxious to try them out.
Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric: Excellent Flavor if you worship Irori, and the two classes compliment each other pretty well. The Ecclesitheurge covers the Unchained Monk's poor Will Save, and the Unchained Monk makes the Ecclesitheurge's restrictions about not wearing armor not really a problem anymore in addition to providing Excellent BAB and a d10 hit die.
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Sorcerer: Pretty similar to the above combination. 3 Excellent Saves, Full BAB, d10 hit die, excellent unarmored AC, and 9th-level casting. It should be noted that the Scaled Fist archetype makes all of the Monk's Wisdom-based bonuses scaled off of Charisma instead. You probably want to go with the Draconic Bloodline, since otherwise the flavor clash is a little iffy. It's a pretty good fit anyway, since the Draconic Bloodline's natural armor boost is a good fit for a front-line spellcaster.
I love any combination that includes Monk. My favorites include Monk//Rogue and Monk//Paladin. The latter grants some insane armor bonuses and more benefits than you can shake a stick at, assuming you don't mind never having fun in life. The two you mentioned are very intriguing combinations, and I'm anxious to try them out.
Actually, another good combination, now I think about it, is Scaled Fist Monk (Unchained or Not)/Paladin. A high Charisma will make you virtually invincible, since you CHA to AC and all Saves (which are all good)
Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric: Excellent Flavor if you worship Irori, and the two classes compliment each other pretty well. The Ecclesitheurge covers the Unchained Monk's poor Will Save, and the Unchained Monk makes the Ecclesitheurge's restrictions about not wearing armor not really a problem anymore in addition to providing Excellent BAB and a d10 hit die.
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Sorcerer: Pretty similar to the above combination. 3 Excellent Saves, Full BAB, d10 hit die, excellent unarmored AC, and 9th-level casting. It should be noted that the Scaled Fist archetype makes all of the Monk's Wisdom-based bonuses scaled off of Charisma instead. You probably want to go with the Draconic Bloodline, since otherwise the flavor clash is a little iffy. It's a pretty good fit anyway, since the Draconic Bloodline's natural armor boost is a good fit for a front-line spellcaster.
I love any combination that includes Monk. My favorites include Monk//Rogue and Monk//Paladin. The latter grants some insane armor bonuses and more benefits than you can shake a stick at, assuming you don't mind never having fun in life. The two you mentioned are very intriguing combinations, and I'm anxious to try them out.
Actually, another good combination, now I think about it, is Scaled Fist Monk (Unchained or Not)/Paladin. A high Charisma will make you virtually invincible, since you CHA to AC and all Saves (which are all good)
Sounds like an absolute monster. Where can I find the Scaled Fist Archetype? It doesn't ring any bells.
Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric: Excellent Flavor if you worship Irori, and the two classes compliment each other pretty well. The Ecclesitheurge covers the Unchained Monk's poor Will Save, and the Unchained Monk makes the Ecclesitheurge's restrictions about not wearing armor not really a problem anymore in addition to providing Excellent BAB and a d10 hit die.
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Sorcerer: Pretty similar to the above combination. 3 Excellent Saves, Full BAB, d10 hit die, excellent unarmored AC, and 9th-level casting. It should be noted that the Scaled Fist archetype makes all of the Monk's Wisdom-based bonuses scaled off of Charisma instead. You probably want to go with the Draconic Bloodline, since otherwise the flavor clash is a little iffy. It's a pretty good fit anyway, since the Draconic Bloodline's natural armor boost is a good fit for a front-line spellcaster.
I love any combination that includes Monk. My favorites include Monk//Rogue and Monk//Paladin. The latter grants some insane armor bonuses and more benefits than you can shake a stick at, assuming you don't mind never having fun in life. The two you mentioned are very intriguing combinations, and I'm anxious to try them out.
Actually, another good combination, now I think about it, is Scaled Fist Monk (Unchained or Not)/Paladin. A high Charisma will make you virtually invincible, since you CHA to AC and all Saves (which are all good)
Sounds like an absolute monster. Where can I find the Scaled Fist Archetype? It doesn't ring any bells.
It's in the latest Player Companion book, [b]Legacy of Dragons[/i].
Unchained Monk/Ecclesitheurge Cleric: Excellent Flavor if you worship Irori, and the two classes compliment each other pretty well. The Ecclesitheurge covers the Unchained Monk's poor Will Save, and the Unchained Monk makes the Ecclesitheurge's restrictions about not wearing armor not really a problem anymore in addition to providing Excellent BAB and a d10 hit die.
Scaled Fist Unchained Monk/Sorcerer: Pretty similar to the above combination. 3 Excellent Saves, Full BAB, d10 hit die, excellent unarmored AC, and 9th-level casting. It should be noted that the Scaled Fist archetype makes all of the Monk's Wisdom-based bonuses scaled off of Charisma instead. You probably want to go with the Draconic Bloodline, since otherwise the flavor clash is a little iffy. It's a pretty good fit anyway, since the Draconic Bloodline's natural armor boost is a good fit for a front-line spellcaster.
I love any combination that includes Monk. My favorites include Monk//Rogue and Monk//Paladin. The latter grants some insane armor bonuses and more benefits than you can shake a stick at, assuming you don't mind never having fun in life. The two you mentioned are very intriguing combinations, and I'm anxious to try them out.
Actually, another good combination, now I think about it, is Scaled Fist Monk (Unchained or Not)/Paladin. A high Charisma will make you virtually invincible, since you CHA to AC and all Saves (which are all good)
Sounds like an absolute monster. Where can I find the Scaled Fist Archetype? It doesn't ring any bells.
It's in the latest Player Companion book, [b]Legacy of Dragons[/i].
Ah. I thought that might be the case after looking through some of the new materials that have become available. I haven't had the chance to look at it yet, but that sounds pretty awesome.
Rogue [Sniper] (1)/Fighter [Archer] (19) // Monk [Zen Archer] (20) With good saves across the board, fantastic BAB in melee and ranged, and a focus on strength, wisdom, and dexterity, this class makes for a fantastic ranged combatant. Tons of free archery feats, the ability to use Flurry of Blows with your bow, and all the damage increasing abilities you can apply to the bow make for a very convincing argument. The dip into Rogue at first level grants the halved range penalties for attacks, and provides a good supply of skills for starting out, on top of the extra 1d6 of sneak attack (also good at lower levels).
And that's an example of a gestalt I'd refuse right off the bat for my own games. XD I prefer diversity, not supercharging one thing.
Currently, one of my favored mixes is Summoner/Oracle, with an Eidolon focused on scouting and spells focused on support.
That makes total sense. At our table, we primarily use Gestalt to accentuate abilities instead of covering tons of bases. We play with a full table of 4, so if everyone tried to be diverse as possible, it would be Hell on the DM lol.
Rogue [Sniper] (1)/Fighter [Archer] (19) // Monk [Zen Archer] (20) With good saves across the board, fantastic BAB in melee and ranged, and a focus on strength, wisdom, and dexterity, this class makes for a fantastic ranged combatant. Tons of free archery feats, the ability to use Flurry of Blows with your bow, and all the damage increasing abilities you can apply to the bow make for a very convincing argument. The dip into Rogue at first level grants the halved range penalties for attacks, and provides a good supply of skills for starting out, on top of the extra 1d6 of sneak attack (also good at lower levels).
It's painfully redundant. Many of the Archer Fighter's features also exist on the Zen Archer side, and the Zen Archer has full BAB when making a Flurry of Blows anyways. It's quite rare to take distance penalties on a composite longbow, so a multiclass dip just for that, a handful of skills, and 1d6 sneak attack (on an archer who'll have a hard time making use of it) is hardly worth it. The Archer archetype was never as good an archer as a plain Fighter with archery feats, and it's downright awful now since it gives up Bravery, Weapon Training, and Armor Training.
If you're set on gestalting Zen Archer with a full BAB class, you'd be much better off with a plain Fighter, Slayer, or Ranger. The best choices (in no particular order) would be Inquisitor, Cleric, Warpriest, or Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer (Arcane Archer optional).
Rogue [Sniper] (1)/Fighter [Archer] (19) // Monk [Zen Archer] (20) With good saves across the board, fantastic BAB in melee and ranged, and a focus on strength, wisdom, and dexterity, this class makes for a fantastic ranged combatant. Tons of free archery feats, the ability to use Flurry of Blows with your bow, and all the damage increasing abilities you can apply to the bow make for a very convincing argument. The dip into Rogue at first level grants the halved range penalties for attacks, and provides a good supply of skills for starting out, on top of the extra 1d6 of sneak attack (also good at lower levels).
It's painfully redundant. Many of the Archer Fighter's features also exist on the Zen Archer side, and the Zen Archer has full BAB when making a Flurry of Blows anyways. It's quite rare to take distance penalties on a composite longbow, so a multiclass dip just for that, a handful of skills, and 1d6 sneak attack (on an archer who'll have a hard time making use of it) is hardly worth it. The Archer archetype was never as good an archer as a plain Fighter with archery feats, and it's downright awful now since it gives up Bravery, Weapon Training, and Armor Training.
If you're set on gestalting Zen Archer with a full BAB class, you'd be much better off with a plain Fighter, Slayer, or Ranger. The best choices (in no particular order) would be Inquisitor, Cleric, Warpriest, or Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer (Arcane Archer optional).
That's good to know. I hadn't looked into it alot, so the input of someone who knows more about those features than I is quite helpful. My group and I share a Google Doc that has input from everyone, so I pulled that from there. Thanks for the insight on it. I think one of my players was going to be running it, so this should help them alot
If you're set on gestalting Zen Archer with a full BAB class, you'd be much better off with a plain Fighter, Slayer, or Ranger. The best choices (in no particular order) would be Inquisitor, Cleric, Warpriest, or Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer (Arcane Archer optional).
Shaman, Spiritualist, and possibly druid are also good simply because they're wisdom casters.
: Slayer (20) // Alchemist (5)/Assassin (10)/Alchemist (5) Designed for studying an opponent from the shadows and striking when the timing is perfect, this combination makes for one of the best Assassin builds you can find. A full BAB, massive amounts of sneak attack, and plenty of available skills makes for a varied, but focused build. The 10 levels of Alchemist add a unique twist to the character, and the use of poison becomes far easier when you can craft them yourself with special properties.
: Slayer (20) // Alchemist (5)/Assassin (10)/Alchemist (5) Designed for studying an opponent from the shadows and striking when the timing is perfect, this combination makes for one of the best Assassin builds you can find. A full BAB, massive amounts of sneak attack, and plenty of available skills makes for a varied, but focused build. The 10 levels of Alchemist add a unique twist to the character, and the use of poison becomes far easier when you can craft them yourself with special properties.
This character is far better off with straight Alchemist on the other side and skipping the Assassin prestige class. Vivisectionist archetype replaces Bombs with Sneak Attack.
: Slayer (20) // Alchemist (5)/Assassin (10)/Alchemist (5) Designed for studying an opponent from the shadows and striking when the timing is perfect, this combination makes for one of the best Assassin builds you can find. A full BAB, massive amounts of sneak attack, and plenty of available skills makes for a varied, but focused build. The 10 levels of Alchemist add a unique twist to the character, and the use of poison becomes far easier when you can craft them yourself with special properties.
This character is far better off with straight Alchemist on the other side and skipping the Assassin prestige class. Vivisectionist archetype replaces Bombs with Sneak Attack.
That's pretty intense. Not sure I would take the vivisectionist though, since precision based damage doesn't stack. Chose Assassin more for the other class features than the sneak attack. Seems a redundant choice, but I wasn't able to find anything better suited for the flavor. Any recommendations?
Vivisectionist Sneak Attack does stack with other sources, though I don't know how it would work coming from the other side of Gestalt. The Alchemist's class features trump anything you could get from Assassin, and you don't even need to be evil to do it.
Investigator is another very good choice. Study the target extra hard for even more bonuses to hit and damage. Slayer's study bonus is untyped and Investigator's is an insight bonus.
As a general rule, gestalt combinations should never allow you to advance an ability faster than you normally could (so you can't get Sneak Attack from multiple levels at the same time and end up with way more damage than you should).
Vivisectionist Sneak Attack does stack with other sources, though I don't know how it would work coming from the other side of Gestalt. The Alchemist's class features trump anything you could get from Assassin, and you don't even need to be evil to do it.
Investigator is another very good choice. Study the target extra hard for even more bonuses to hit and damage. Slayer's study bonus is untyped and Investigator's is an insight bonus.
It stacks in the essence of multi-classing. So if you took levels of Rogue, and levels of Vivisetionist, they would stack to create your total. IE; A Rogue(2)/Alchemist(1) would have 2d6 of sneak attack, just like a 3rd level rogue. A Gestalt Rogue//Alchemist would still only have 2d6 of sneak attack.
Fighter/URogue gives tons of skills, good saves, solid combat ability and a bit of debuffing potential. Eldirtch Guardian added for extra flanking fun.
Kineticist/Brawler, for use with kinetic fist.
UMonk/Cave Druid. Shapeshift into a carniverous crystal ooze and flurry with a 7d8 18-20 weapon.
Goliath Druid/Titan Fighter for the biggest reach (weapon) possible.
Oracle (Battle)/Sorcerer (psychic). Two sets of full casting loaded with fun buffs, on top of proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons. Add Noble Scion (War) for extra fun with initiative.
Fighter/URogue gives tons of skills, good saves, solid combat ability and a bit of debuffing potential. Eldirtch Guardian added for extra flanking fun.
Kineticist/Brawler, for use with kinetic fist.
UMonk/Cave Druid. Shapeshift into a carniverous crystal ooze and flurry with a 7d8 18-20 weapon.
Goliath Druid/Titan Fighter for the biggest reach (weapon) possible.
Oracle (Battle)/Sorcerer (psychic). Two sets of full casting loaded with fun buffs, on top of proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons. Add Noble Scion (War) for extra fun with initiative.
I've always loved the Fighter//Rogue combo. Gives the character a quintessential "Action Hero" vibe.
That Druid//Fighter looks to be the poster child for "Go Big or Go Home", which is pretty awesome too.
Easy to go wrong. She only has one standard action so she can't benefit from both sides at the same time and she only has one good save.
Full casters want durability. Generally synthesist summoner if legal or paladin on charisma casters, monk (unchained generally since full casters all have will)with wisdom casters, and an int to AC magus with non-psychic int casters. Psychics can go with an armored martial instead if they want.
Lynxden wrote:
I've always loved the Fighter//Rogue combo. Gives the character a quintessential "Action Hero" vibe.
You have two classes that are iffy in their realms of "competence" and are missing one of the important saves. Not great. Slayer does almost everything this combo does and leaves a track available for something else. Investigator is a nice pseudo-caster with a strong will save that shouldn't ruin the "action hero" vibe or bard or inquisitor if a real caster is acceptable.
Warlord//Bard - Charismatic melee support machine, especially with Golden Lion. Battle Prowess does not stack with Inspire Courage, so you could go with Bannerman or Vanguard Commander archetypes for Warlord.
Harbinger//Wizard - Be even scarier with Monstrous Physique, etc. Int-based full caster with (eventually) INT to damage and 1/2 INT to hit. What the hell, you could even pick up INT to CMB/CMD as well through the Wizard discovery.
Gunslinger//Warder (Hawkguard) - Ranged Warder with Dex-to-Damage and hitting Touch AC.
Warlord//Bard - Charismatic melee support machine, especially with Golden Lion. Battle Prowess does not stack with Inspire Courage, so you could go with Bannerman or Vanguard Commander archetypes for Warlord.
Harbinger//Wizard - Be even scarier with Monstrous Physique, etc. Int-based full caster with (eventually) INT to damage and 1/2 INT to hit. What the hell, you could even pick up INT to CMB/CMD as well through the Wizard discovery.
Gunslinger//Warder (Hawkguard) - Ranged Warder with Dex-to-Damage and hitting Touch AC.
So the lesson I am learning here is that I need to start paying much closer attention to the player supplements that get released
I'm a personal lover of Magus/Fighter. D10 HD, full BAB, Good will save and access to awesome spells, plus as many feats as you want.
I'm quite fond of that combo as well. One of my players (15+ years of D&D experience) is working a conversion for the Magus to a more stealth focused build and that is turning out to be fun too. It'll be interesting to see what that final result is like, and how it will pair with other classes if he chose to use it in a Gestalt game.
I'm a personal lover of Magus/Fighter. D10 HD, full BAB, Good will save and access to awesome spells, plus as many feats as you want.
Fighter's a bit weak and doesn't fill all the magus's holes.
Slayer is one feat short for the first 10 levels if you can find a ranger combat style you like and want a feat available as a rogue talent and has more skills and your third saving throw.
Brawler has somewhat fewer feats, but can get some of them flexibly as needed and also gets you your third saving throw. Also more skills. No accuracy booster, though, and I don't think there are any wide crit close weapons.
Avenger Vigilante is just one feat shy of a fighter if you use your vigilante talents on feats and if you want weapon finesse, weapon focus, power attack, improved shield bash, improved unarmed strike, blind fight, quick draw, diehard, vital strike or any improved maneuver feat there's a general or avenger talent that is strictly superior. You also get your third good save and more skills, but vigilante doesn't get you the d10 hit die or an accuracy boost beyond full BAB.
Reflex may be the least important save, but it is a hole in your defenses. Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training are nice, but come very late and aren't generally as good as having real class features.
Fighter//Magus isn't perfect, but neither are the other combinations you're suggesting.
I think you underestimate Advanced Weapon and Advanced Armour Training - and you can take them as early as levels 5 and 3 if you're in a rush and want to spend feats on it. Fighter has gotten a lot better in the last year, and it's much more flexible in its combat style than other classes.
In addition to the fact that the Brawler doesn't support weapons that are good for the magus, Flurry and Spell Combat do not work together. Slayer/Ranger Combat Styles don't have a lot of good options for einhanders. Both Brawler and Slayer also rely more on swift actions than the Fighter, which is inconvenient as the Magus is already very heavy on swift actions.
Warpriest/bloodrager(fated bloodline)
The fates favored trait & mad magic as your first feat. You get a scaling luck bonus to saves and armor class.
The spell divine favor applies a luck bonus to your attack and damage.
Swift cast buffing while you rage.
I recently made an Occultist(battle-host)/Magus(blade-bound). I understand they're pretty similar, but I wanted a RP Focused character, that's still competent in combat. Just bind your scimitar(black blade), and go DEX w/ Dervish Dance, a mithril buckler, and boom you're a monster on the battle field.
Why not? Wouldn't you just exchange all the offhand attacks in the flurry with a spell?
I have a friend of mine that's playing an eldritch archer magus||zen archer monk in a game right now, so I'm curious as to why, mechanically, this doesn't work.
EDIT: Nevermind. He doesn't stack Spell Combat and FoB. He uses the zen archer bonuses with a bow, while using Spell Combat.
Fighter//Magus isn't perfect, but neither are the other combinations you're suggesting.
I think you underestimate Advanced Weapon and Advanced Armour Training - and you can take them as early as levels 5 and 3 if you're in a rush and want to spend feats on it. Fighter has gotten a lot better in the last year, and it's much more flexible in its combat style than other classes.
In addition to the fact that the Brawler doesn't support weapons that are good for the magus, Flurry and Spell Combat do not work together. Slayer/Ranger Combat Styles don't have a lot of good options for einhanders. Both Brawler and Slayer also rely more on swift actions than the Fighter, which is inconvenient as the Magus is already very heavy on swift actions.
Magus//Slayer doesn't have a real swift action problem. You just don't use arcane pool to enhance your weapon because with full BAB and studied target you don't need to and you have better uses for your pool. And the buffing round is where they'd collide. You can use Spell Recall after combat to get back anything you couldn't replace immediately because you had to change targets. You might consider menacing style and if you ever make attacks without spell combat (which includes any round after the first if you use multi-touch spells) two handed isn't a bad choice either.
Brawler doesn't have any penalties to using a non-close weapon. You don't get your damage die increase, but you wouldn't get anything anyways until level 8 and it doesn't become large enough to be nominally worth a martial weapon until level 12 (except the Katar, which is exotic and would have to be compared to a Magus with an Estoc which it won't surpass by more than 0.5 damage until level 16). You're missing a feature, but it's a feature that exists to prop up a weapon group that is terrible otherwise. Martial Flexibility can use up swift actions, but having shcroedinger's feat plan is a big deal.
Avenger you didn't find a flaw with.
As to advanced training, I can't see anything really worthwhile given that you're going to be using a scimitar one handed. Much is made of versatile training and adaptable training, but you'd have more skill points with any other class. Similarly, armed bravery is a patch for a flaw the magus gestalt takes care of and fighter's reflexes is a patch for a flaw any of the alternatives wouldn't have. Most of the armor training options care about armor category and magus takes a while to cast in heavier armor. Considering that the other options also have class features the advanced training options aren't standing out. If you were using a second class that made some of the shortfalls of the basic fighter chassis moot it would look better, but Magus doesn't do that.
I know the scimitar is very popular for the magus but I wouldn't make that a baseline assumption. Fighter//Magus would work very well with a whip, for example, since the fighter easily qualifies for Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery and both Trained Grace and Focus Weapon would be useful. Also, Strength Magi are a thing, and they'll get great use out of Armour Specialization and Armoured Juggernaut - usable with mithral full plate at level 7.
Atarlost wrote:
Magus//Slayer doesn't have a real swift action problem. You just don't use arcane pool to enhance your weapon because with full BAB and studied target you don't need to and you have better uses for your pool. And the buffing round is where they'd collide. You can use Spell Recall after combat to get back anything you couldn't replace immediately because you had to change targets. You might consider menacing style and if you ever make attacks without spell combat (which includes any round after the first if you use multi-touch spells) two handed isn't a bad choice either.
The magus also wants swift/immediate actions for many arcana such as Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Edge, Spell Shield, or Hasted Assault, as well as Quickened spells at high levels. You can certainly find combat styles you can use as a magus but the open-ended bonus combat feats would be more useful.
Atarlost wrote:
Brawler doesn't have any penalties to using a non-close weapon. You don't get your damage die increase, but you wouldn't get anything anyways until level 8 and it doesn't become large enough to be nominally worth a martial weapon until level 12 (except the Katar, which is exotic and would have to be compared to a Magus with an Estoc which it won't surpass by more than 0.5 damage until level 16). You're missing a feature, but it's a feature that exists to prop up a weapon group that is terrible otherwise. Martial Flexibility can use up swift actions, but having shcroedinger's feat plan is a big deal.
Martial Flexibility is a pretty big deal, but once you ignore flurry and brawler weapons you don't have that many features left. Let's compare, by level 20:
Brawler: +2 skills, good ref save, martial flexibility, AC bonus +4, Maneuver training, Knockout, Improved Awesome Blow
Fighter: 4 extra feats, Bravery +5, 3 Advanced Armour Training & Mastery (move at full speed with +4 AC and DR 7/- in medium armour, or with +5 AC and DR 8/- in heavy; +1 advanced training option), Weapon Training +5 attack and damage (+7 with gloves of dueling) + 3 Advanced Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery.
Advanced Armour Training & Mastery beat the brawler's AC bonus, and 2/3 Advanced Weapon Training options will as you pointed out patch the skills and ref save. So are martial flexibility, maneuver training, knockout, and improved awesome blow worth 4 feats, +7 attack and damage, the third advanced weapon training, and weapon mastery? At the very least I don't think it's clearly in favour of the brawler.
Atarlost wrote:
Avenger you didn't find a flaw with.
Because you already mentioned them: only d8 HD on a melee character and no accuracy booster beyond full BAB.
Sorcerer//overwhelming soul kineticist: SAD full arcane caster that can blast all day while sorcerer can focus on utility and support spells for her known. Larger HD, all good saves, etc.
Sorcerer//overwhelming soul kineticist: SAD full arcane caster that can blast all day while sorcerer can focus on utility and support spells for her known. Larger HD, all good saves, etc.
Well, I'd love to try an all Vigilante//Something Else gestalt party. In that spirit, some ideas:
Mindchemist Alchemist // Warlock Vigilante. d8 HD, all good saves, 4+Int skill points (with good Int). Bombs for fire-based blasting and control effects, mystic bolts to round out your energy type options. TWF works with both (assuming you get fast bombs). Two versatile partial casting lists for buffing, utility, and some additional control spells. Excellent sage thanks to Perfect Recall - the social identity is probably a scholar.
Cleric // Avenger. d8 HD, Full BAB, all good saves, 6+Int skills. A reach build with buffing and summoning. Reach clerics are normally feat-starved, so avenger can help add combat feats (in addition to a few more interesting talents if desired). Keeping foes at a distance means the d8 vs d10 HD doesn't matter as much as it would for some characters, and since most attacks will be AoO (therefore top BAB) it doesn't matter that you have fewer accuracy boosts than, say, Cleric//Ranger. Druid//Avenger would also work nicely though you'd want a secondary healer.
Barbarian // Mounted Fury. d12 HD, full BAB, all good saves, 6+Int skills, tons of combat abilities including a mount that you can use Ferocious Mount on and bonuses to charging with pounce. Yeesh. Note that Mounted Fury can take Avenger talents.
Paladin // Magical Child. d10 HD, full BAB, all good saves (plus Divine Grace), 4+Int skills. Not much better in combat than a standard paladin, but 6-levels of unchained summoner casting adds versatility and some buffing (eg Enlarge Person) with charisma synergy. A celestial animal guide would be thematic and could help with scouting. Makes an excellent party face.
Slayer // Cabalist. d10 HD, full BAB, all saves, 6+Int skills. Effective Str or Dex based TWF between studied target, combat styles, lethal grace (if desired), sneak attack, and bleed damage on every piercing or slashing attack. Gets lots of mundane & magical sneaky tricks with partial casting off the witch list. Notably, vigilante talent See the Unseen lets you keep precision damage on foes with concealment.
I know the scimitar is very popular for the magus but I wouldn't make that a baseline assumption. Fighter//Magus would work very well with a whip, for example, since the fighter easily qualifies for Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery and both Trained Grace and Focus Weapon would be useful. Also, Strength Magi are a thing, and they'll get great use out of Armour Specialization and Armoured Juggernaut - usable with mithral full plate at level 7.
Scimitar is still the only reasonable weapon choice for a strength magus because unlike the rapier it can be two handed when not spell combating. There is no reason to use a rapier except at first level when waiting for dervish dance on a dex magus. Wazikashi, katana, and estoc are probably not worth the exotic proficiencies. Whip is not such a good choice because you can't threaten AoOs until level 5 and the crit range is as bad as it can be. Whip is also a four feat tax (three if you're a Kensai, but then armor training isn't relevant).
Armored Juggernaut is DR 1 until level 11 because anything that counts as medium armor for spellcasting counts as medium armor for all purposes except proficiency or is actual medium armor.
Weirdo wrote:
The magus also wants swift/immediate actions for many arcana such as Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Edge, Spell Shield, or Hasted Assault, as well as Quickened spells at high levels. You can certainly find combat styles you can use as a magus but the open-ended bonus combat feats would be more useful.
Those aren't efficient uses of arcane pool points unless you can't hit without Arcane Accuracy. Gestalted with slayer you don't need it. The others are just bad.
Weirdo wrote:
Martial Flexibility is a pretty big deal, but once you ignore flurry and brawler weapons you don't have that many features left. Let's compare, by level 20:
Brawler: +2 skills, good ref save, martial flexibility, AC bonus +4, Maneuver training, Knockout, Improved Awesome Blow
Fighter: 4 extra feats, Bravery +5, 3 Advanced Armour Training & Mastery (move at full speed with +4 AC and DR 7/- in medium armour, or with +5 AC and DR 8/- in heavy; +1 advanced training option), Weapon Training +5 attack and damage (+7 with gloves of dueling) + 3 Advanced Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery.
Advanced Armour Training & Mastery beat the brawler's AC bonus, and 2/3 Advanced Weapon Training options will as you pointed out patch the skills and ref save. So are martial flexibility, maneuver training, knockout, and improved awesome blow worth 4 feats, +7 attack and damage, the third advanced weapon training, and weapon mastery? At the very least I don't think it's clearly in favour of the brawler.
You're double counting feats. Advanced weapon/armor training don't come online in a useful timeframe without spending them. You're also ignoring that Martial Flexibility gives you those feats back flexibly. Counting stuff up at level 20 is only useful if the game starts at level 20. A magus cannot benefit from armor training until level 7 because his constraint isn't movement, it's spellcasting. That's why dex magi predominate. Most builds never see high level either because they die or the campaign stalls out or was never intended to be that long in the first place so it doesn't make sense to build for high level in ways that sabotage low level play. Assuming access to gloves of dueling is also not safe. It's widely considered undercosted before AWT and many GMs are probably going to soft or hard ban it now that the weapon training bonus can be doubled or used for other things.
That armor specialization is better than the brawler's AC bonus at levels 7, 11, 17, 18, and 20. You're probably only going to see two of those levels. We're not in the realm of large gaps, especially considering that the brawler is getting touch AC while the fighter is getting flat footed AC. I think touch AC is probably more valuable. Interestingly, the Brawler's Martial Training lets it be treated as a monk for items that function differently for monks and specifically calls out the monk's robe. A monk's robe gives a non-monk the AC of a 5th level monk but "If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher," which would appear to mean the brawler gets the monk's AC and fist progression while wearing one even though that sounds crazy. If that weren't what was meant I can't see it being called out. That makes a brawler a better match for kensai which seems to be a popular magus archetype for some reason.
Versatile Training does not make up for the brawler or slayer's skill points, much less the Avenger's. You need two weapon training choices to get more than one category. It will be heavy blades, light blades, or maybe flails. There are no reasonable magus choices outside those categories. Not one of those gives two skills a reasonable fighter//magus would actually choose to invest in. The one that's worthwhile in both blade categories is diplomacy, which it is not acceptable for a party to be without for four levels. Adaptable Training evens things up if you want to max one of the options, but most aren't things that usually get maxed and it only evens things up. Between those and making up the reflex save you've lost three of your lifetime feat advantage of four. That last bonus feat is at level 20. And it doesn't count Martial Flexibility. And it's still taking until level 6 to make up what the brawler or slayer brought at level 1. The avenger is in the long run 1 feat and 2 useful skill points up if he takes toughness.
My group tends to advance to mid levels fairly rapidly and then slow down, spending most of our playtime between levels 5 and 15, so YMMV on which levels are relevant.
I'm also not sure your advice here is relevant to practical play if you think that scimitar is the only "reasonable" weapon choice. People play magi with longswords, aldori dueling swords, rapiers, whips, katana. They are not the best choices but they are functional and some people prefer them for aesthetic reasons. It is often useful to be able to optimize given a sub-optimal weapon or combat style.
Heck, I've got a staff magus lined up for my next gestalt game. In fact his second class is slayer - though that's because I required everyone to pick rogue or a rogue hybrid for thematic reasons. (Another character is going for occultist//investigator, which looks like a fun sabateur/gadgeteer.)
More specific comments for side discussion:
Atarlost wrote:
Adaptable Training evens things up if you want to max one of the options, but most aren't things that usually get maxed and it only evens things up. Between those and making up the reflex save you've lost three of your lifetime feat advantage of four. That last bonus feat is at level 20.
I'm not spending feats for those, I'm taking them out of your weapon training options. Is that why you thought I was "double counting feats"? If you want to spend feats you can (they are good things to get early rather than late) but then you end up with another 2 advanced weapon training slots in the long run to get more combat bonuses, like Defensive Weapon Training, Focused Weapon (+5.5 damage on a scimitar by level 20, or +3.5 by 15), Trained Initiative, or a Weapon Mastery feat (such as Smash from the Air).
You'll also note that despite the fighter's AC bonus being better than the brawler's at level 20, and the fighter getting DR to boot, I actually didn't include "better AC" as one of the items in the final comparison ("So are martial flexibility, maneuver training, knockout, and improved awesome blow worth 4 feats, +7 attack and damage, the third advanced weapon training, and weapon mastery?"), because I thought the limitations you mentioned evened it out.
Atarlost wrote:
Armored Juggernaut is DR 1 until level 11 because anything that counts as medium armor for spellcasting counts as medium armor for all purposes except proficiency or is actual medium armor.
Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”
This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.
DR based on armour type is not a limitation requiring the character to wear lighter armour, therefore it is not affected by mithral.
A 7th level Fighter//Magus is proficient in mithral full plate, can cast spells in it (since spellcasting is a limitation) and gets DR 2/- in it.
