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I play in a Pathfinder Society campaign. Ive been getting into modules where Enemies seem wildly off many times.
You would expect with level 1 characters you fight Goblins or kobolds, right? I look them up and they arent even one challenge point, but a fraction. You fight them in groups to get close to challenge 1. Ive fought them about 3 different modules out of about a dozen.
What do I see us fighting? Ghouls with paralyzing touch, Devils and Demons with various damage reduction, immunities, and spell-like abiltites. I check those up and they are rated several times higher.
Bosses tend to be even higher at challenge 3-4. Several are clearly beyond our fighting power as they are basically level 5+ Cleric/Druid/Whatevers.
Am I misunderstanding the Challenge rating or are we just fighting in difficult modules? Please break it down for me.
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The way it's supposed to work with CR is:
Calculate your average party level (sum of all PC's levels/number of PCs) to get your APL. Keep in mind that CR is designed for 4 players, and Society scenarios are designed for 6 players, so the CR is typically going to be inaccurate just based on that.
If an encounter has a Challenge Rating (CR) = your APL, then it's an easy encounter - it should take about 25% of your daily resources to beat it. An encounter with Cr = APL + 1 is slightly harder, APL + 2 is a hard fight, and APL + 3 is a very hard fight - 'epic' level difficulty, and is appropriate as a boss encounter. If you took your PCs and made them fight an 'evil' version of themself, they'd be APL + 4 - a 50:50 chance to win, all things considered. The CR of the encounter is based on the CR of the enemies you're fighting, but can be adjusted - if they're humanoids with PC wealth, it's one higher. If they're in a tactical advantage terrain-wise, it's one higher, or a disadvantage is 1 lower.
PFS will typically have an APL + 3 fight for the lower part of the subtier - you'll have a subtier 4-5, the final encounter will be CR 7 - so an epic fight if you're all 4th level, or a very hard one if you're all 5th level. The tactics of a boss sometimes makes it easier (e.g. Serpent's Rise had a whole section on that to prevent TPKs). A humanoid with non-NPC class levels and standard NPC wealth is a CR = class levels - 1. This means that an 'appropriate' boss for a subtier 4-5 fight is CR 7 humanoid - an 8th level class. That will probably be too powerful, in that it will kill one player (or if it's a wizard and chucking fireballs, maybe multiple), but the action economy is against it, so you'll typically have around a CR 6 boss, and then enough minions to bump it up to CR 7 overall. If you're in the lower subtier, 1-2, then the CR of the final fight is normally CR 4 (3 above the lowest point in the subtier) and so a 5th level caster is not out of the question - but again, dropping a 5d6 fireball on an entire party of 1st level characters will probably lead to a TPK, so that's not done much in society play - they'll use less lethal choices.
As level 1 characters, you shouldn't be fighting CR = 1 fights for the big bosses - that'd be astoundingly easy. If you want to have a typical, normal kobold encounter as a boss fight, it'd be 8 kobolds is CR 4 - but that's probably not very challenging, unless you have tactics to run them in a very mean manner.
The weakest devil - a lemure - is CR 1, and so you can actually have 3 lemures as a boss fight for 1st level PCs, but I wouldn't reccomend it - they're horrendously bad.
Hope this helps! :)
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What's going on:
The easy/hard/ challenging/OMG we're all gonna die of the CR is addition based. To a group of level 10's a CR 15 (apl+4) fight is tough.
To a low level party, +4 is also TIMES four. It's not 140% percent of your APL it's 400% of your apl. The addition to simplify the system just gets you wonky results.
Bosses are definitely not balanced. I looked up some old modules we did to check out the bosses.
Regardless of their challenge rating they were easily capable of hitting us 50-75% of the time and doing enough damage to one-shot us sometimes on low rolls. To add salt on the wound they also often had summoning spells, pets, area damage etc. One module we actually had help from a higher level Npc...that went down in one-turn from a Druid pet.
We have single hit dice and medium sized enemies do more than enough damage to take that down. That is before you take into account how mixed our parties are, often made of various medium/low BAB class. The only full BAB character I know a player has used is a Bloodrager of mine. It feels like we do need more people in our party especially Warriors.
Its a dark joke now about GMs causing or almost causing total party kills without trying.
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It might just be very varying optimsiation levels at different lodges, but over here in Canberra, the tier 1-5s are generally considered easy in comparison to the higher level ones - the only player kill I can remember seeing in low-tier play was a bloodrager taking a crit from the [insert big boss at end here] in the Confirmation - 3x crit and bloodraging meant they were taking to -14, then stopping the raging killed them.
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It might just be very varying optimsiation levels at different lodges, but over here in Canberra, the tier 1-5s are generally considered easy in comparison to the higher level ones - the only player kill I can remember seeing in low-tier play was a bloodrager taking a crit from the [insert big boss at end here] in the Confirmation - 3x crit and bloodraging meant they were taking to -14, then stopping the raging killed them.
He's getting into modules, i don't think he means scenarios.
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1st level is extremely swing and surviving can be luck based.
Even with maximum hit point a good constitution a critical at the wrong moment or simply some bad luck with the dices can set you in deep negative and, if your are slow to react, kill you.
Sure, ghouls or similar opponents are a bad choice of opponent at that level, but those should be very rare and a boss fight.
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It might just be very varying optimsiation levels at different lodges, but over here in Canberra, the tier 1-5s are generally considered easy in comparison to the higher level ones - the only player kill I can remember seeing in low-tier play was a bloodrager taking a crit from the [insert big boss at end here] in the Confirmation - 3x crit and bloodraging meant they were taking to -14, then stopping the raging killed them.He's getting into modules, i don't think he means scenarios.
There are no Pathfinder Society modules, only modules legal for society play, and I've met a fair few people who call scenarios modules, so I made an assumption there.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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In PFS scenarios, the assumption is a 6 player party that's in-tier. So if you're playing a tier 1-2 part of a scenario, that would be 3x L1 and 3x L2, on average. It's quite likely there'll be a L3 PC in the mix as well if not everyone is playing in lockstep.
Now let's take a look at Average Party Level. There are actually two different concepts bearing that name. One is the APL talked about in PFS context - the APL you use to determine tier. That's the rounded average of everyone's level.
The other APL is the one from the Core Rulebook, which is based on a 4-player party. There it says to increase APL by +1 for a 6-player party. So a typical PFS party is basically so large that it counts as a level higher due to sheer weight of numbers.
This other APL isn't discussed much in scenarios, but it is used to figure out appropriate enemies for scenarios by the writers. So if a party of [1,1,1,2,2,2] has an encounter, their "CRB APL" is 2.5, and so a CR 3 encounter isn't that strange.
Another thing about CR, is that it's basically an estimate of how much of your daily resources (spells, HP..) it should consume to vanquish. For a 4-player party, CR=APL should consume 1/4th of your resources, meaning you could have 4 of those encounters in a day without it being over the top. But the typical PFS scenario tends to have only about 3 encounters in it, because fights take a lot of time and scenarios need to be doable in about 4 hours. So the fights are a bit bigger but you have fewer of them.
Also, the CR / resources per day calculation more or less ignores one big thing: the Wand of Cure Light Wounds. That item is so cheap (due to buying with 2PP) that PCs tend to go into each fight fully healed, rather than looking more mangy as the day goes on. Because that's such a common tactic (because it works so well), writers count on it and keep it in mind when setting difficulty.
As for running into devils and demons with DR, or ghouls - in many low-level scenarios, there is some advance warning that something like that it coming. If you made sure to search & loot before, chances are you found some item that would be helpful, "coincidentally" left there by the writer. Basically, if you play smart, the adventure is easier than if you tried to do it with brute force.
In other cases, these enemies aren't all that dangerous (most low-CR devils and demons don't hit all that hard) and the point is actually to teach new players about stuff like DR and that they should be prepared for it, so that at higher levels when stuff gets dangerous, players will be ready for it. After you've had a hard time hitting that dretch at level 1, you'll probably make sure to buy a cold iron weapon for next time, just in case.
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In PFS scenarios, the assumption is a 6 player party that's in-tier.
Wow, I thought PFS scenarios were designed for 4 player parties, though they were compatible with 4-6 players. Is it spelled out somewhere that they're expecting 6 person groups? Was it always that way or did they switch it at some point?
Back on topic: its obvious CR is totally broken when Aether Elementals are CR1. A monster with 60ft fly, permanent greater invisibility (more or less), ability to attack from 480 ft away, and otherwise decent stats is absolutely going to TPK a level 1 group. Even an unprepared 3rd level party (or higher) may have a hard time! And this is not the only example of a monster that is way out of line. Shadows are a well known TPK magnet for low level parties. And don't even get started with some of the template combinations...
The easy/hard/ challenging/OMG we're all gonna die of the CR is addition based. To a group of level 10's a CR 15 (apl+4) fight is tough.
To a low level party, +4 is also TIMES four. It's not 140% percent of your APL it's 400% of your apl. The addition to simplify the system just gets you wonky results.
This is also a really big problem.
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In PFS scenarios, the assumption is a 6 player party that's in-tier.Wow, I thought PFS scenarios were designed for 4 player parties, though they were compatible with 4-6 players. Is it spelled out somewhere that they're expecting 6 person groups? Was it always that way or did they switch it at some point?
I believe that they switched and that current modules actually have variants for 3-4 person groups which reduce the # of foes. (Though I think that the assumption is really 5-6 rather than just 6.)
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What's going on:
The easy/hard/ challenging/OMG we're all gonna die of the CR is addition based. To a group of level 10's a CR 15 (apl+4) fight is tough.
To a low level party, +4 is also TIMES four. It's not 140% percent of your APL it's 400% of your apl. The addition to simplify the system just gets you wonky results.
While true to some degree, I think that you're overstating the issue. The system isn't set up to have a linear increase in power as you level, so the level multiple doesn't mean much.
But yes, the first level or two can be vicious simply because law of large #s doesn't apply much. I know at level 2 my (high AC) bard got dropped to -12 from a mook with a greataxe. (and lost 1 more before he was stabilized)
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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In PFS scenarios, the assumption is a 6 player party that's in-tier.Wow, I thought PFS scenarios were designed for 4 player parties, though they were compatible with 4-6 players. Is it spelled out somewhere that they're expecting 6 person groups? Was it always that way or did they switch it at some point?
From seasons 0 to 3, party size was supposed to be 4. From season 4 onward the party size was defaulted to 6, but they started including sidebars for smaller parties, which range from removing some mooks, giving less spells, removing templates, or give conditions to enemies such as fatigued (which does absolutely nothing in a certain season 4 scenario).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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In PFS scenarios, the assumption is a 6 player party that's in-tier.Wow, I thought PFS scenarios were designed for 4 player parties, though they were compatible with 4-6 players. Is it spelled out somewhere that they're expecting 6 person groups? Was it always that way or did they switch it at some point?
With regard to scenarios;
In seasons 0-3 the assumption was a 4 player party with 6 being allowed. Since people usually did play in parties larger than 4, this led to scenarios being too easy too often.
In season 4 this was changed, and difficulty went up a lot. Took some time to find a new better balance, but in current seasons it's pretty good. Nowadays scenarios compensate for bigger parties by using more enemies or action-economy improvement for the enemy, rather than by using one uber-boss that either hits and kills, or goes down in a pile of screaming PCs.
As for Modules, I think those may still be built with a 4-player party in mind actually. Modules are written in the first place for standalone use, and eventually often get sanctioned for PFS too. But PFS isn't the prime target for modules.
I can see how many modules would be significantly easier if they were done by a party at the higher end of its range.
A basic level 1-2 module is unusually hard for level 1 characters starting off with a whopping 150gold to buy everything from armor, weapons, ammo, potions, equipment, etc.
If youre level 2 on the other hand youve got enough money and some leveling done so you can now easily afford cold iron and chemical silver weapons.
If players survive these encounters then you can learn tips, like carry multiple weapons for different damage types, use special material weapons, carry acid/alchemist's fire for swarms.
Bosses are still broken though. Next week Im going to fight a level 6 Demon Cleric with a level 1 Arcanist. In a Homebrew Campaign I would urge players to run from such situations.
It really feels like modules were designed for Min-maxed and/or specialist parties. So many situations would be easily cleared up with we had Fighters/Barbarians for fighting or Investigators for skills. That is particularly jarring as using the Ability Score system wants you to make a character with rounded stats.
Actually thats probably it. Challenge rating doesnt take into account different classes. at level 1 a Barbarian is going to be far more powerful than a level 1 Wizard in combat but they are treated the same.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I haven't run across any modules yet that were that hard. I don't know any module where a L1 PC is expected to fight L6+ casters at all.
Modules tend to be written for a single level - if a module says it's for level 2-4, it's actually intended for L3, and the gold awards will be appropriate for L3 PCs. Playing it at L2 is allowed but will be difficult. If you pull through though you'll be ahead of the curve in gold a bit.
L1-2 modules are probably actually meant for L1 PCs, although several of them are indeed quite hard (Everflame, and Thornkeep in particular).
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Modules and PFS scenarios are written with a low barrier to entry. In PFS's case, that's due to table variation. I believe I've read somewhewe that these scenarios are playtested with pregen characters, who are already pretty low in power compared to a decently-built PC. For Modules, most of them (if not all) are written for point-buy 15 characters, and some even give pregens as suggested PCs. However, if played in PFS, this raises a problem. In most modules you're supposed to level up partway through. This can become quite difficult for low-level parties, as the adventure supposes you're a level higher than you actually are. Everflame is quite harsh in that regard. And both modules and scenarios are written with an "ideal" party in mind: a frontliner (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin), a trap disabler/utility character (Rogue), a healer (Cleric) and a spellcaster (Sorcerer or Wizard). And you're right, at low level a Fighter will end way more combats than a Wizard will, but later on this will equalise somewhat.
I'm not implying that you're overreacting, but most scenarios aren't that bad. Maybe you've played the wrong scenarios ("wrong" as in, bad examples, not as in bad choice)? I have played some low-level scenarios that were fairly mean (DR 5/Good on level 1-5 is pretty much impossible), but also many that were pushovers (seasons 0 to 3), because of low enemy HP, poor action economy (as Ascalaphus said, one big guy against 4-5 party members is just unfair), or generally being poorly statted. You might just be getting a bad test sample. I also have no idea which low-level adventure has a level 6 Demon Cleric. Maybe you're playing up in tier? Would you mind spoiling the adventure name for me (in spoiler tags)? That might help clarify the situation.
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In PFS scenarios, the assumption is a 6 player party that's in-tier.Back on topic: its obvious CR is totally broken when Aether Elementals are CR1. A monster with 60ft fly, permanent greater invisibility (more or less), ability to attack from 480 ft away, and otherwise decent stats is absolutely going to TPK a level 1 group. Even an unprepared 3rd level party (or higher) may have a hard time! And this is not the only example of a monster that is way out of line. Shadows are a well known TPK magnet for low level parties. And don't even get started with some of the template combinations..
Never heard of these..but a look at them does show me that they are way off base.
Their base ACs are low, so they are easy to hit, they DO get the benefit of 50% miss chance and are hard to target. Though they are also easier to detect through Perception checks.
Their slam is weak, and only a +4.
The throw needs to hit and then gives a weak Fort save. The idea that they are going to be bouncing you around from 480' away is kinda silly. That distance gives crazy perception penalties, and most normal adventures won't take place with such large unobstructed areas, not to even mention the weight limit allotted for the ability (50#/HD, so only gnomes and 1/2lings will be targeted at the lowest levels.
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The small Aether Elemental is a rough CR 1, but it'd be a weak CR 2. The only thing that would be really bad would be if they stay at long range and pelt you, but with their Int 4, that's probably unlikely.
Unlike the annoying will o wisp, they have a crappy CMD and should probably be grappled ASAP.
(Am I the only one that has a smog pellet or two as standard issue for new characters?)
The challenge ratings on monsters arent an accurate representation of special abiltities. Some are potential one-shot-kill abilities
a Ghoul has multiple Paralyzing attacks and possibly lethal Ghoul Fever but is only a CR-1.
WARNING THE FOLLOWING HAS SPOILERS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Not everything Ive played but a showcase between low-to-high.
1 The easiest module Ive played in has been Rise of the Goblin Guild. Being that the enemies are small they did reduced damage on most attacks. When we played it we also had a player using a higher level Kineticist so while a strong enemy in it was capable of using Cleave and taking us out in one hit it was taken out easily.
2 Trial by Machine had an enemy with a gaze that disables the party and caused fear when it attacked.
3 Hall of the Flesheaters started off with a battle against 5 Barbarian NPCs. It was almost a total party kill. Later it went to fighting groups of Ghouls and Festrogs.
4 Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment. This was mostly a social module to complete simple objectives we completed early. The we started encountering demons. We fought a Dretch, which would have been easy if any of us has Cold Iron weapons but we didnt. After that had to fight high AC Aasimar guards in a narrow space vs skillmonkeys. There is a Demon Cleric as well.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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WARNING THE FOLLOWING HAS SPOILERS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNEDNot everything Ive played but a showcase between low-to-high.
1 The easiest module Ive played in has been Rise of the Goblin Guild. Being that the enemies are small they did reduced damage on most attacks. When we played it we also had a player using a higher level Kineticist so while a strong enemy in it was capable of using Cleave and taking us out in one hit it was taken out easily.
Yeah, this one's pretty easy, but the final boss could still pack quite a punch. But indeed, mostly Small enemies make this not the most challenging scenario.
2 Trial by Machine had an enemy with a gaze that disables the party and caused fear when it attacked.
True, but the fascination breaks when he attacks, and the saves are relavtively low. Most characters should have about a 50% chance of making their save (although I remember being hit and frightened for 7 rounds, while I had a 60% chance of making my save...). Nasty, but not impossible to deal with.
3 Hall of the Flesheaters started off with a battle against 5 Barbarian NPCs. It was almost a total party kill. Later it went to fighting groups of Ghouls and Festrogs.
Yes, this one's pretty tough. The Barbarians indeed pack quite a punch. The Ghouls were also nasty, and I agree they're pretty tough for their CR.
4 Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment. This was mostly a social module to complete simple objectives we completed early. The we started encountering demons. We fought a Dretch, which would have been easy if any of us has Cold Iron weapons but we didnt. After that had to fight high AC Aasimar guards in a narrow space vs skillmonkeys. There is a Demon Cleric as well.
Assuming you played lower tier, a single Dretch isn't that hard. They're pretty nasty with the Stinking Cloud and the DR, but action economy really favours the players. The Aasimars have about player-equivalent AC, so unless you really didn't bring anyone combat-capable, this should be a fair fight. The Demon Cleric is only level 2 in the lower tier (level 4 in high, with some extra friends). Lots of HP, but limited in actions.
Difficult to judge in this case, but it just seems to me your party was just not optimal. Yeah, this is a social scenario, but you still expect some fighting to be done. Only bringing skill monkeys or social characters can indeed be a problem. The DR is also pretty tough, but cold iron is cheap enough that even first-level characters should be able to carry one (although it isn't immediately apparent it's needed from the outset).In some cases, you indeed played pretty tough scenarios, but from some examples I just think party composition wasn't ideal. Are you new to Pathfinder? There's a lot to know and you might not yet have the systemmastery to play around some of the challenges.
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The challenge ratings on monsters arent an accurate representation of special abiltities. Some are potential one-shot-kill abilities
a Ghoul has multiple Paralyzing attacks and possibly lethal Ghoul Fever but is only a CR-1.
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WARNING THE FOLLOWING HAS SPOILERS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Use spoiler tags, the instruction are in the "How to format your text " spoiler below the bottom of the thread.
(open bracket) spoiler=Movie plot spoiler (close bracket) This is a spoiler, such as revealing who really did frame Roger Rabbit.(open bracket)/spoiler(close bracket)
Um people, just Private Message me the details.
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Okay detail wise I know our group isnt really balanced. We're in Pathfinder Society so we dont know who is coming every week, which tables they will play in, and what they will bring.
I made a suggestion on Facebook that we fulfill the 3 main roles of a group, 1 a Full BAB Warrior, 2 a Skillmonkey-Trapfinder, and a wand using Healer.
Somehow that came out as a demand and almost got me kicked from the group. I stopped trying to suggest anything to the group and so we have Almost no Warriors, no Trapfinders, but hopefully a healer.
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I dont think most Modules are really set up as learning games. Alot of them seem like their would be mini-adventures for skilled players with optimized builds.
Even if you do optimize it would still be a major challenge being something like level 1 with almost no money to buy essential items like cold iron, acid flasks, wands.
Its a bad idea to for the the minimum level in a module. The difference in levels, equipment, and all the class abilities could be so massive in even one level that a challenge becomes easy.
Are there any modules that are light on or absent of combat?
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This should get easier as your group grows a little and people start to get multiple characters. I can reach into binders full of characters to fullfill multiple rolls .
As to what you can do, there are builds that can do both skill monkeying and other rolls VERY well. Rangers for example have full BAB and skills. A druid skill monkey comes with casting and a combat pet, a battle cleric or battle bard can smash things in combat and wand you back to full after.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I dont think most Modules are really set up as learning games. Alot of them seem like their would be mini-adventures for skilled players with optimized builds.
As I said, PFS scenarios are written with the lowest common denominator in mind. The fact that you're having trouble suggests to me you're all pretty inexperienced and/or have a very wonky party composition. The first is remedied by time, and perhaps people make the characters your party needs when they're sick of struggling all the time. Your suggestion seems reasonable, perhaps it's the way in which you said it?
Even if you do optimize it would still be a major challenge being something like level 1 with almost no money to buy essential items like cold iron, acid flasks, wands.
Its a bad idea to for the the minimum level in a module. The difference in levels, equipment, and all the class abilities could be so massive in even one level that a challenge becomes easy.
It's just the troubles of being low-level. Levels 1 and 2 are a bit of a slog, but it'll get better. And the level disparity isn't that high you need to be max level for the modules all the time. Yeah, it's bad to be level 2 when you're playing tier 3-4, but as long as you're in tier (and have a well-balanced party) you're usually fine. And as I said, most scenarios are intended to be pretty easy, to accomodate groups such as yours. Just stick with it and give it some time. Perhaps people will learn and change characters to fill up the gaps you're missing on their own.
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No offense meant for anyone, but refusing a reasonable suggestion of trying to get a balanced party sound like everyone want to be a "prima donna".
sometime that can be a problem even during play, not only character selection.
If everyone always do "his thing", not caring what other character are doing, who need help or support, the result can be pretty bad.
If that is the problem, as I see it, you have two diametrically opposite options:
1) to be the support character. Play a bard that can cover for most skill needs, heal a bit (especially as soon as you can afford the CLW wands [and ask people to buy their own, you can use the wand for them to avoid the need to pump up UMD, but no reason to spend your resources if they don't want to spend them]);
2) be as independent as possible. Make a character that can fulfill all basic functions by himself. A inquisitor is a good option for that as the judgments can cover for a lot of needs.
There are several other class that can do that, too.
The second solution isn't the best one if you are often playing with the same people, someone can feel it is even confrontational, but it work well if you often play with pick up groups and don't know who and what will be there.
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Next week Im going to fight a level 6 Demon Cleric with a level 1 Arcanist.
Are... are you reading the modules before playing through them? Why would you know that your arcanist is going to fight a level 6 demon cleric?
I made a suggestion on Facebook that we fulfill the 3 main roles of a group, 1 a Full BAB Warrior, 2 a Skillmonkey-Trapfinder, and a wand using Healer.
I'm sorry, I con't play PFS, but what do you need a full BAB melee class, a dedicated skillmonkey, a trapfinder, or a healer (unless you count everyone with CLW or Infernal Healing on the spell list as healer) for?
I made a suggestion on Facebook that we fulfill the 3 main roles of a group, 1 a Full BAB Warrior, 2 a Skillmonkey-Trapfinder, and a wand using Healer.I'm sorry, I con't play PFS, but what do you need a full BAB melee class, a dedicated skillmonkey, a trapfinder, or a healer (unless you count everyone with CLW or Infernal Healing on the spell list as healer) for?
I am honestly astonished by that question.
So #1 to win fights, #2 succeed at sklll checks, #3 to find traps, #4 to heal wounds.
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One problem I can see is that there are too many classes for each role and many hybrid classes that can fit multiple roles. Players try out many classes including myself, so it can be a revolving door of level 1 resets.
Want a Warrior? Well there's the Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Monk, Paladin, cavalier/Samurai, Gunslinger, Slayer, Brawler, Bloodrager for Full BAB classes.
Casters have multiple classes for Arcane and Divine. Trapfinders are thankfully the smallest pool.
This can create complexity overload choosing which is "cool" but ineffective or which is boring but practical. It seems like everyone has a Sorcerer or Cleric, but I havent seen a Fighter outside a pre-generated character sheet.
I can whip up a strength 18 Fighter or Barbarian with a cold-iron lucerne hammer, scale armor, shield+one handed weapon quickly. I dont want to be stuck in the front or as a class I dont want to stay as. Most players want to cast magic eventually. Most people have a a Divine or Arcane Caster ready, but full BAB warriors are rare. Just last week 3 players were ready to bring out Sorcerers in the same game.
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Now Im trying to find out now if there are easier modules so we can manage instead of "bring Fighters or die".
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I made a suggestion on Facebook that we fulfill the 3 main roles of a group, 1 a Full BAB Warrior, 2 a Skillmonkey-Trapfinder, and a wand using Healer.I'm sorry, I con't play PFS, but what do you need a full BAB melee class, a dedicated skillmonkey, a trapfinder, or a healer (unless you count everyone with CLW or Infernal Healing on the spell list as healer) for?I am honestly astonished by that question.
So #1 to win fights, #2 succeed at sklll checks, #3 to find traps, #4 to heal wounds.
1) You do not need a full BAB to win fights. A cleric with an 18 strength and a 2 handed weapon hits things just fine
2) Lots of classes can be good at skills. Oracles make amazing face characters with their charisma, a reasonable dex and masterwork thieves tools will let you open a door eventually, a druid with a 14 int can skillmonkey.
3) anyone with a perception score can find traps. Buy a few scrolls of Aram Zey's focus if you think you'll ever need to disarm a magical trap.
4) Wands do this. At higher levels, wands of lesser resto do this. No one has to be a healer.
Im going to start private messaging as half this thread is now off-topic.
I am honestly astonished by that question.
So #1 to win fights, #2 succeed at sklll checks, #3 to find traps, #4 to heal wounds.
I think I see where the differences of opinion between you and your group come from. You seem to think that every roll can only be filled by a designated character. But as you said yourself, there are "many classes for each role and many hybrid classes that can fit multiple roles".
You don't need a full BAB martial, there are multiple characters that can fill that role (Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and most if not all of the 6/9 casters). You don't need a dedicated skillmonkey, you can spread the skills among multiple characters or replace them with spells (and a high charisma char like sorc will be better at social skills, anyway). You don't need trapfinding to see traps, Detect Magic and Pperception do that just fine (and a high wisdom char is better at spotting traps than a rogue with trap finding). You don't need a designated healer because infight healing is suboptimal 99% of the time, and there are 17 classes who can use either CLW wands of Infernal Healing wands for outfight healing.
In my opinion, you should be more open minded - there are many class combinations that can work in Pathfinder. With just a little bit of ingenuity, you can make almost anything work. If no one can disable a trap, circumvent it (e.g. by breaching a wall with Soften Earth and Stone) or have a summon trigger it. If you don't have a melee fighter, use battlefield controll spells (pits, walls, Web etc.) or summons. If no one can heal (none of that classes or no wand present), prevent damage with battlefield controll spells, debuffs or summons.
If one would want to play a caster, and you would go and tell them to play a Rogue of Fighter because you have outdated believes that a party doesn't work without them, I think it's natural to react dismissive. Try to step outside of your mindset and try to make unusual party work - taking the road less traveled can be a lot of fun!
I sometimes read things that confuse me that i think I am playing a whole different game.
You cant just keep trying rolls until you succeed. One roll per check generally. Some rolls can be taken by the group, but others only person can try. Imagine a Fighter in Heavy Armor finding and disabling traps.
Dont anger the peasants. Dont trigger the explosive.
Most often comment I see is any spell suggestions to solve every problem. Items are another. You know you cannot start out with a Wand right, or that you need a DC 20 Use Magic Device check to use one? Youre talking about a level of play where spells are readily accessible and items are disposable.
I dont think this is going anywhere. this is now basically baiting me.
Hard core fighting enemies are too difficult for me and the people I play with. I was just trying to find out if its normal to face such powerful enemies at the beginning of characters' lives and how fair modules really are.
I am still looking for suggestions to "low combat" modules.
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I dont think this is going anywhere. this is now basically baiting me.
Hard core fighting enemies are too difficult for me and the people I play with. I was just trying to find out if its normal to face such powerful enemies at the beginning of characters' lives and how fair modules really are.
I am still looking for suggestions to "low combat" modules.
There may be major issues with optimization and party composition, from what I've seen - the modules you discussed we have gone through with almost no issue, with 4, 5 or 6 players - so maybe that's the issue.
Sorry if that comes off as rude, but one or both of those things seems to be the problem.
Also, how do you know your 1st level arcanist is going to be fighting a 6th level demon cleric?
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If you can't get through level 1 scenarios your optimization is sub pregen level low. Optimize more.
Unless you TPK'd the party, SOMEONE has 2 pp for a wand of CLW and can pass it to someone that can use it on the party. That should let you muscle through another 2-3 scenarios so everyone has the wand of CLW and can chip in.
And thus begins the snowball roll of crunch over fun and why PFS builds tend to be cookie cutter. It breeds certain must haves because that's what everyone else is doing because that's what the content needs because people are power gamers already or at least that's how the logic goes.
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And thus begins the snowball roll of crunch over fun and why PFS builds tend to be cookie cutter. It breeds certain must haves because that's what everyone else is doing because that's what the content needs because people are power gamers already or at least that's how the logic goes.
That's not true, even in the slightest. PFS is very, very easy - it's simple for anyone with a passing knowledge of the system to build characters that will trivialize a good chunk of the encounters, and if you know Pathfinder well, you can quite easily build characters that could solo the whole scenario. PFS is a GREAT place to try new ideas, precisely because it's easy - if you want to make things that aren't power-gamey, they work well in PFS. Look at the pregens. Really look at them - rogues with no dex to damage and 12 STR. The pregens can do basically any PFS scenario they're in-tier for. That's the level of optimization that's expected.
If you think that the pregens are 'cookie cutter' inspiring levels of optimization, something is seriously wrong in your games.