PFS immunity question


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

If I'm immune to something, am I allowed to select Traits, and such, that are balanced by a penalty that I'm immune to?

Example, Elf with Lightbringer Racial trait:

Quote:
Many elves revere the sun, moon, and stars, but some are literally infused with the radiant power of the heavens. Elves with this racial trait are immune to light-based blindness and dazzle effects, and are treated as one level higher when determining the effects of any light-based spell or effect they cast (including spell-like and supernatural abilities). Elves with Intelligence scores of 10 or higher may use light at will as a spell-like ability. This racial trait replaces the elven immunities and elven magic racial traits.

and the Surface Stranger regional Trait:

Quote:

Surface Stranger (Region)

Requirement(s) Underground
You were born and raised in a subterranean home with little or no bright light. Your miss chance for concealment or total concealment due to either mundane or magical darkness decreases by 10%. You are dazzled for 1 round when you are suddenly exposed to bright light.

Just an example, but it illustrates my quandary.

If I were GM, I would ban this combination, as it's clearly intended to be balanced by this penalty, so being innately immune defeats the point. Not really that it would horribly unbalanced, but that the ability is clearly intended to function with the penalty.

But in PFS, this isn't up to a GM, so I'm wondering what others think regarding immunities and things balanced by penalties of which you are immune to.

Shadow Lodge

Trait slots are incredibly valuable. So valuable that people were willing to trade an arm or a leg for the ability to have an extra one.

If you want to spend a trait slot and an alternate racial bonus just to negate a penalty, I say go for it.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Rage Cycling is a thing.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

In general if you gain something in exchange for some penalty you don't gain the something if you are immune to the something.

It isn't spelled out often when the writer doesn't think of it, look at ring of inner fortitude how it was changed to block using it to negate penalties of abilities.

Grand Lodge

By that logic, James, being immune to fatigue makes barbarians unable to rage. It doesn't.

Scarab Sages

Jeff Merola wrote:
By that logic, James, being immune to fatigue makes barbarians unable to rage. It doesn't.

That true? Was under the impression the opposite was correct.

Grand Lodge

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
By that logic, James, being immune to fatigue makes barbarians unable to rage. It doesn't.
That true? Was under the impression the opposite was correct.

It's what Nefreet was referring to, and yes it works fine.


James Risner wrote:

In general if you gain something in exchange for some penalty you don't gain the something if you are immune to the something.

It isn't spelled out often when the writer doesn't think of it, look at ring of inner fortitude how it was changed to block using it to negate penalties of abilities.

That's only applicable if it actually states it. Like how the ring of inner fortitude now specifically states it after errata (which probably got errata'd due to unforeseen usage by alchemists), or how with kineticist rules state that if one is immune to nonlethal damage then can't accept burn.

For another example besides rage cycling on why being immune to something doesn't stop one from benefiting from something, there's the vest of stable mutation: it prevents one from taking mental ability score penalties, but still expects the mutagen-imbiber to benefit from the mutagen (typically physical ability score bonuses).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Just because they haven't yet errata rage to block rage cycling doesn't mean they haven't spoken out that rage cycling shouldn't be a thing.

Grand Lodge

Quotes on that, please? I haven't heard of any of them saying that rage cycling doesn't work or that it's being corrected. And it's not like the Barbarian class itself doesn't already grant the ability to rage cycle just by taking enough levels in it.


Yes you can still pick traits and feats if you are immune to the drawback. The benefit and draw back are separate.


I have no idea where the unfairness or lack of balance is supposed to be here. The penalty from Surface Stranger is applied as normal, and is only negated because the character is spending a separate resource to do it. Having low DEX is generally supposed to mean weak initiative, but that doesn't mean that taking Improved Initiative to counter it is somehow cheating the system. Taking Improved Initiative doesn't mean that someone is 'getting away with' dropping DEX by 8 points without a penalty any more than taking Lightbringer means that someone is 'getting away with' taking Surface Stranger without a penalty. The penalty is there, but another spent resource is covering it.

If the problem is supposed to be conceptual, then: "Character X grew up in dark places and so got used to them; X would have been unaccustomed to bright light if it they weren't able to channel it themselves." Shockingly succinct.


Just how do you fit both those traits into a background story? Traits are not pick and choose they are an integral part of your background story.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Simple, you were born underground but was raised on stories passed down your family telling of the beautiful lights that hung in the sky ocean far above you.

You swore that one day you would see these heavens that swam through your dreams.

There, took me like a minute.


James Risner wrote:
Just because they haven't yet errata rage to block rage cycling doesn't mean they haven't spoken out that rage cycling shouldn't be a thing.

There's a wondrous item called "Cord of Stubborn Resolve" (in Ultimate Equipment). Its effect is to replace fatigue with nonlethal damage (in addition to a +2 CON). In his guide, Jolly refers to it as "Belt of Rage Cycling". If Paizo had spoken out against rage cycling, I expect they wouldn't have made such an item.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Khudzlin wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Just because they haven't yet errata rage to block rage cycling doesn't mean they haven't spoken out that rage cycling shouldn't be a thing.
There's a wondrous item called "Cord of Stubborn Resolve" (in Ultimate Equipment). Its effect is to replace fatigue with nonlethal damage (in addition to a +2 CON). In his guide, Jolly refers to it as "Belt of Rage Cycling". If Paizo had spoken out against rage cycling, I expect they wouldn't have made such an item.

Emphasis on the bold.


Rysky wrote:
Khudzlin wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Just because they haven't yet errata rage to block rage cycling doesn't mean they haven't spoken out that rage cycling shouldn't be a thing.
There's a wondrous item called "Cord of Stubborn Resolve" (in Ultimate Equipment). Its effect is to replace fatigue with nonlethal damage (in addition to a +2 CON). In his guide, Jolly refers to it as "Belt of Rage Cycling". If Paizo had spoken out against rage cycling, I expect they wouldn't have made such an item.
Emphasis on the bold.

Yep and after the Flurry requires 2 hands debacle I often wonder just how long anything mundane shall last.


i dont think it will be errat'd, considering rage cycling is built into the base class at level 17.


CWheezy wrote:
i dont think it will be errat'd, considering rage cycling is built into the base class at level 17.

Still have to assume that we are doing it wrong. We thought that Monks could flurry with one weapon until it was "Clarified" in the middle of AoMF discussion. After a lengthy back and forth it was settled that enough people had been doing it "wrong" that it shouldn't be changed to needing two weapons.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
i dont think it will be errat'd, considering rage cycling is built into the base class at level 17.
Still have to assume that we are doing it wrong. We thought that Monks could flurry with one weapon until it was "Clarified" in the middle of AoMF discussion. After a lengthy back and forth it was settled that enough people had been doing it "wrong" that it shouldn't be changed to needing two weapons.

That and 3.5 Barbarian's didn't have rage "rounds" or Rage Powers.

Tireless Rage was implemented so that in the endgame the Barbarian could rage in fights back to back.


Rysky wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
i dont think it will be errat'd, considering rage cycling is built into the base class at level 17.
Still have to assume that we are doing it wrong. We thought that Monks could flurry with one weapon until it was "Clarified" in the middle of AoMF discussion. After a lengthy back and forth it was settled that enough people had been doing it "wrong" that it shouldn't be changed to needing two weapons.

That and 3.5 Barbarian's didn't have rage "rounds" or Rage Powers.

Tireless Rage was implemented so that in the endgame the Barbarian could rage in fights back to back.

Yep thus possibly now having unforeseen consequences. But we can hope that it holds. At least until we have a several thousand post thread in which it gets repeatedly brought to the Dev teams attention.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
i dont think it will be errat'd, considering rage cycling is built into the base class at level 17.
Still have to assume that we are doing it wrong. We thought that Monks could flurry with one weapon until it was "Clarified" in the middle of AoMF discussion. After a lengthy back and forth it was settled that enough people had been doing it "wrong" that it shouldn't be changed to needing two weapons.

That and 3.5 Barbarian's didn't have rage "rounds" or Rage Powers.

Tireless Rage was implemented so that in the endgame the Barbarian could rage in fights back to back.

Yep thus possibly now having unforeseen consequences. But we can hope that it holds. At least until we have a several thousand post thread in which it gets repeatedly brought to the Dev teams attention.

Pretty much.

Silver Crusade

There are many well-known and long established ways to rage cycle before level 17. Eg, dip lame oracle at level 9; take 5 levels of martial artist monk; use the flawed ioun stone that converts fatigued to sickened with the level 8+ rage power that makes you immune to sickened.

"early" rage cycling is far too well established to be nerfed. The "solution", if one is needed, is that used with the furious finish feat: you are fatigued "even if you would not otherwise be".


Also, by level 2 the Scarred Rager Archetype that rages for their turn and then shuts it off is only fatigued until the start of their next turn.

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