Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I would like to petition for a change to the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide.
Specifically I would like to have the Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet section, page 14, modified in the following manner.
1. In Step 1, remove the requirement that GMs ask the player to fill out Setion G, I, K and P (Starting XP, Initial Fame, Inital Prestige, Starting GP).
2. Remove step 9.
3. Rewrite step 10 to specify that the GM only has to sign and date the chronicle and return to the player.
I am asking for this change because it is too great of a burden on GMs and Players to have to follow these steps. Often, there is not enough time at the end of an adventure to complete this information and it adds very little to the adventure. GMs have more important things to do than be required to do these steps.
It should be the player's responsibility alone to fill out these sections.
I request this change be made retroactively to Season 8.
Thank you.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I opened this petition not because I want to see this change but to open (re-open) the discussion on this topic and to hopefully have Campaign Leadership assert that the process is the guide is to be followed by all GMs. Far too many GMs ignore this. In my view, this practice is not healthy for PFS and it has to change.
I believe the process is set out in the guide and if GMs don't believe it is worth following than they should not be allowed to GM for PFS.
It is an excuse to say that time has ran out. Plan better.
Thank you,
Gary Bush
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It's real easy to be so sell righteous about this. But things happen, and most GMs want thier players to enjoy the entire scenario. Ending the final encounter in order to fill out paperwork is never ideal, and declaring that GMs need to plan better is pretty short sighted.
I would support a GM giving players a good time over a meh to bad time just to fill out paperwork.
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I believe the process is set out in the guide and if GMs don't believe it is worth following than they should not be allowed to GM for PFS.
Good idea, push out everyone that doesn't do it this way. PFS can survive with less than 1% of it's remaining DM's right?
half selling point of the inventory tracking sheet was that players wouldn't have to total up gold, see how much they have to spend, look over the options for half an hour, and then hand the sheet back to the DM. They could just shop in between sessions at their leisure.
It's like driving 5 miles over the speed limit. Everyone does it, you factor it in when you make the speed limits. No big deal.
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I believe the process is set out in the guide and if GMs don't believe it is worth following than they should not be allowed to GM for PFS.
Well, I'm glad you are not the campaign leadership, otherwise, I might have to find a new hobby.
I have more than 100 player chronicles across various PCs. If any of those GMs have followed this process, it is 1 or 2% at most, and probably closer to zero. This includes many VOs. I guess they should all be dismissed from their positions too.
Let me further go on record to state that I emphatically refuse to follow this process.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Good idea, push out everyone that doesn't do it this way. PFS can survive with less than 1% of it's remaining DM's right?
If only 1% are following the guide than the leadership needs to see and understand it and make a change.
Or leadership needs to be very clear that the expectation is to do what the guide says to do.
But I don't accept that only 1% are doing what the guide says. It is hard however to say this because there is clear evidence that a good portion of the GMs are not doing it And these are senior GMs. Individuals that are respected and set an example for other GMs.
Keep in mind that this process has been in place for a while. I can't say for certain how long because I have been involved in PFS for only 3 seasons.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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This includes many VOs.
It is the VOs that need to set the example and make sure the GMs in their lodges are following the guide as it is written.
It is also the VOs who are best able to affect change to the guide of one needs to be made.
Here is the vehicle to make a change in this area. Let us hear from VOs to why they are not following the Guide.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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It's real easy to be so sell righteous about this. But things happen, and most GMs want thier players to enjoy the entire scenario. Ending the final encounter in order to fill out paperwork is never ideal, and declaring that GMs need to plan better is pretty short sighted.
I would support a GM giving players a good time over a meh to bad time just to fill out paperwork.
If we are not "righteous" about this item, what else do we not need to be "righteous" about?
You are a 5-star GM and a VC. You have a greater ability to effect a change than I do. If you feel this process is too much work, work to change it as well.
Otherwise, you should be upholding the Guide in your area.
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I opened this petition not because I want to see this change but to open (re-open) the discussion on this topic and to hopefully have Campaign Leadership assert that the process is the guide is to be followed by all GMs. Far too many GMs ignore this. In my view, this practice is not healthy for PFS and it has to change.
I believe the process is set out in the guide and if GMs don't believe it is worth following than they should not be allowed to GM for PFS.
It is an excuse to say that time has ran out. Plan better.
Thank you,
Gary Bush
Hmm.. The guide is just that, a guide, not a book of laws. If one has time to fill everything out as outlined in a chronicle sheet, good. If not, then that should be fine as well. The object is to have a good time at a PFS game.
guide
ɡīd/
a thing that helps someone to form an opinion or make a decision or calculation.
"here is a guide to the number of curtain hooks you will need"
synonyms:model, pattern, blueprint, template, example, exemplar; standard, touchstone, measure, benchmark, yardstick, gauge
"the techniques outlined are meant as a guide"
law
lô/
noun
the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties.
"they were taken to court for breaking the law"
corrected, as I missed a word in there.
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I opened this petition not because I want to see this change but to open (re-open) the discussion on this topic and to hopefully have Campaign Leadership assert that the process is the guide is to be followed by all GMs. Far too many GMs ignore this. In my view, this practice is not healthy for PFS and it has to change.
I believe the process is set out in the guide and if GMs don't believe it is worth following than they should not be allowed to GM for PFS.
It is an excuse to say that time has ran out. Plan better.
Thank you,
Gary Bush
Hmm.. The guide is just that, a guide, not a book of laws. If one has time to fill everything out as outlined, good. If not, then that should be fine as well. The object is to have a good time at a PFS game.
guide
ɡīd/a thing that helps someone to form an opinion or make a decision or calculation.
"here is a guide to the number of curtain hooks you will need"synonyms:model, pattern, blueprint, template, example, exemplar; standard, touchstone, measure, benchmark, yardstick, gauge
"the techniques outlined are meant as a guide"
law
lô/
nounthe system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties.
"they were taken to court for breaking the law"
Is the 20-point buy just a 'guide' as well?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Hmm.. The guide is just that, a guide, not a book of laws. If one has time to fill everything out as outlined, good. If not, then that should be fine as well. The object is to have a good time at a PFS game.
Ok time to play devil's advocate to see if that logic holds.
On page 24 of the Guide, under ability scores, it says I have 20 points to spend on ability scores. But I choose to use 25 points instead.
Would you let me play the character?
What if I used 15 points instead?
After all, the Guide is just a guide.
To ignore one part of the Guide opens the door to ignore other parts.
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Gary, it's easy to just call running out of time an excuse but stuff happens. We happen to be lucky that on our gamedays we don't have to be in a rush to get out after the game, but there are many regions that aren't that lucky. Additionally, a lot of things can happen during a game to drag out the run time. I will say that we should all try to get chronicles filled out properly at the end of a game, but it's not the end of the world.
Gary, I know your heart is in the right place, but you seriously need to tone it down a fair bit. I'm not trying to go after you, but Andy is right about you coming off as overly self-righteous.
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To ignore one part of the Guide opens the door to ignore other parts.
No. This is an argument so bad it has it's own name, the slippery slope argument.
The reason the 20 point buy rule exists is to keep everyone standardized and on the same even playing field. you gain a power advantage by ignoring it and making a stronger character. The rule is not valuable for it's own sake but merely as the means to a very necessary end of keeping people on the same level.
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I require the players to provide the prior chronicle sheet along with filling out the current one completely (except Final GP total - purchases between games are quite reasonable). If I could remember every session, I could probably count the times I signed-and-ran on one hand.
Keeping the society orderly and honest keeps the society fun as well. That, to me, is more important than getting the final smackdown on a boss.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Mitch,
I truly understand that other places are different and may not enjoy what we do. But it does not excuse completely ignoring the Guide ALL THE TIME. The Guide should be the common practice and when the uncommon happens than it is dealt with.
And at the local lodges, it is likely not a big problem, but at Cons it is a HUGE problem. Maybe I am the only one to see it. Maybe I am chicken little.
If that is the case than the Guide needs to be changed to reflect reality and priority.
You know me. You know I am lawful choatic with good tendencies.
So following the "rules" and "guide" is a big deal for me.
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That, to me, is more important than getting the final smackdown on a boss.
The entire reason the society exists is to have fun. If you're not getting the final smackdown on the bosses thats going to ruin your fun far more than your TPS reports not being filled out correctly because then... wait. How exactly does not having your TPS reports filled out correctly hurt fun?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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No. This is an argument so bad it has it's own name, the slippery slope argument.The reason the 20 point buy rule exists is to keep everyone standardized and on the same even playing field. you gain a power advantage by ignoring it and making a stronger character. The rule is not valuable for it's own sake but merely as the means to a very necessary end of keeping people on the same level.
I agree. It is a slippery slope. It is a slippery slope to ignore one part of the guide because one believes it adds no value to the game or players. If it adds no value, why is it in the guide at all?
Because it does add value. It clearly stated on page 4 under Keep Good Records.
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Whoa, the GM is supposed to require the players to fill those sections out at the time of receiving the chronicle sheet? That's actually in the guide?
Why does that part matter at all?
Any GM I've ever played under (and at any table I've ever GMed) has filled out the grayed-out sections (XP/PP/gold for this scenario, day job, etc.) and let me fill out the rest.
Seeing as how I didn't even know it was a requirement, I'm obviously in favor of having it removed from the Guide. But, I'm not sure I see it as such a dire issue as you do, Gary.
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I agree. It is a slippery slope. It is a slippery slope to ignore one part of the guide because one believes it adds no value to the game or players. If it adds no value, why is it in the guide at all?
Slippery slope is a logical fallacy, AKA, horsefeathers. Not a logical consequence. They're exact opposites.
Because it does add value. It clearly stated on page 4 under Keep Good Records.
The good records are so people don't cheat and buttpull items they didn't think ahead to buy. The reason for following it being "it's in the guide" is not the same.
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Gary, you are quickly putting yourself into an undefendable position. I seriously recommend you watch your tone. The best way you are going to influence change is by leading by example.
I made sure my players filled out their chronicles properly at Gen Con. I do agree that maintaining proper paperwork at Gen Con is important. Gary, the path you are taking will not get you a desirable response. Once again, I advise you watch your tone.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Gary, I know your heart is in the right place, but you seriously need to tone it down a fair bit. I'm not trying to go after you, but Andy is right about you coming off as overly self-righteous.
Yes, Andrew and you are right. I did come off as self-righteous. It was intended because the argument against filling out the chronicle as outlined in the guide is just as self-righteous, at least in my reading.
I have learned on these forums if you want a spirited debate, one has be a little on the edge. The problem is keeping away from personal attacks, which is against forum rules (or are those a guide? *smile*)
I do see this as a serious issue for PFS and hope for a good and respectful discussion by all.
Ultimately I have the Guide on my side, unless my petition is successful.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Gary, you are quickly putting yourself into an undefendable position. I seriously recommend you watch your tone. The best way you are going to influence change is by leading by example.
I made sure my players filled out their chronicles properly at Gen Con. I do agree that maintaining proper paperwork at Gen Con is important. Gary, the path you are taking will not get you a desirable response. Once again, I advise you watch your tone.
On the advise of my VL, who could make my character's life difficult (he would NOT do that, I know) I will keep the discussion respectful.
If anyone believes I have been disrespectful than I offer my heartfelt and honest apology.
edit: missed a word there.....
Venture-Agent, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Gary, aside from the technical fact that GMs don't do it exactly as written in the guide, what is the harm to PFS for the way most GMs do it? I am trying to understand the problem you are trying to solve (beyond someone just not following the specific requirement.)
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Gary --
I would support the very first post in this thread. I was actually hoping they'd change the guide to actually reflect how the vast majority of GMs fill out chronicle sheets. I don't mind the GMs who are thorough, like you and Mitch, just like I don't mind the GMs that do character audits.
I just know that I don't want to spend more time doing player paperwork as a GM, especially in a community that depends so much on trust as ours.
Hmm
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Gary, aside from the technical fact that GMs don't do it exactly as written in the guide, what is the harm to PFS for the way most GMs do it? I am trying to understand the problem you are trying to solve (beyond someone just not following the specific requirement.)
Because if Gen Con is any indication, a good chunk of our player base just doesn't know how to track their purchases or flat out refuse to. Over the past three years I have had players (regular joes and VO's) that don't know how to fill out a chronicle and track purchases. These are people playing high-level characters (and not their first or second characters either, we're talking -6 or -7) and when I check their chronicles at the end, they either don't have them or they haven't filled out a single chronicle and don't have an ITS.
When I've been able, I've sat with people and helped them get their characters straight. When I didn't have time to help them, I've issued them their chronicle and warned them that if they don't take care of business they might end up having to play a pregen during the next slot.
To be honest, I don't care too much if they don't fill out the chronicle. But often improperly filled out chronicles are just a symptom of a larger problem.
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Venture-Agent, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Gary, aside from the technical fact that GMs don't do it exactly as written in the guide, what is the harm to PFS for the way most GMs do it? I am trying to understand the problem you are trying to solve (beyond someone just not following the specific requirement.)Because if Gen Con is any indication, a good chunk of our player base just doesn't know how to track their purchases or flat out refuse to. Over the past three years I have had players (regular joes and VO's) that don't know how to fill out a chronicle and track purchases. These are people playing high-level characters (and not their first or second characters either, we're talking -6 or -7) and when I check their chronicles at the end, they either don't have them or they haven't filled out a single chronicle and don't have an ITS.
When I've been able, I've sat with people and helped them get their characters straight. When I didn't have time to help them, I've issued them their chronicle and warned them that if they don't take care of business they might end up having to play a pregen during the next slot.
To be honest, I don't care too much if they don't fill out the chronicle. But often improperly filled out chronicles are just a symptom of a larger problem.
Except that still doesn't answer my question as to what the harm is. How does this harm the campaign? If you are suggesting that GMs show people how to properly fill one out, sure, but that's not an issue of damage or harm to the campaign. It's part of being a GM to help guide new players.
But this thread makes it seems as if somehow this is a significant violation of the rules, and noting in this conversation has demonstrated that it's anything more than a technical violation.
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Gary, you are quickly putting yourself into an undefendable position. I seriously recommend you watch your tone. The best way you are going to influence change is by leading by example.
I made sure my players filled out their chronicles properly at Gen Con. I do agree that maintaining proper paperwork at Gen Con is important. Gary, the path you are taking will not get you a desirable response. Once again, I advise you watch your tone.
On the advise of my VL, who could make my character's life difficult (he would NOT do that, I know) I will keep the discussion respectful.
If anyone believes I have been disrespectful than I offer my heartfelt and honest apology.
edit: missed a word there.....
Gary, I realize you are joking, but I really don't appreciate you making that joke. I want you to be able to speak your mind, but you need to appreciate the fact that you were hurting your own cause with the approach you were taking.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Gary, aside from the technical fact that GMs don't do it exactly as written in the guide, what is the harm to PFS for the way most GMs do it? I am trying to understand the problem you are trying to solve (beyond someone just not following the specific requirement.)Because if Gen Con is any indication, a good chunk of our player base just doesn't know how to track their purchases or flat out refuse to. Over the past three years I have had players (regular joes and VO's) that don't know how to fill out a chronicle and track purchases. These are people playing high-level characters (and not their first or second characters either, we're talking -6 or -7) and when I check their chronicles at the end, they either don't have them or they haven't filled out a single chronicle and don't have an ITS.
I have actually never seen that, but from what I gathered about the convention scene, there are players who only ever play PFS at big conventions. That really doesn't happen in my area, either someone becomes a regular player and thus has the benefit of other players showing him the ropes... or he usually does not play any PFS at all after that. (I had player who had lost their Chronicle sheet or didn't remember to bring it.. the only chronicle sheet they ever received at last years convention etc. .... but flat our refusing to use an ITS is something I really don't have any experience with).
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Gary, aside from the technical fact that GMs don't do it exactly as written in the guide, what is the harm to PFS for the way most GMs do it? I am trying to understand the problem you are trying to solve (beyond someone just not following the specific requirement.)Because if Gen Con is any indication, a good chunk of our player base just doesn't know how to track their purchases or flat out refuse to. Over the past three years I have had players (regular joes and VO's) that don't know how to fill out a chronicle and track purchases. These are people playing high-level characters (and not their first or second characters either, we're talking -6 or -7) and when I check their chronicles at the end, they either don't have them or they haven't filled out a single chronicle and don't have an ITS.
When I've been able, I've sat with people and helped them get their characters straight. When I didn't have time to help them, I've issued them their chronicle and warned them that if they don't take care of business they might end up having to play a pregen during the next slot.
To be honest, I don't care too much if they don't fill out the chronicle. But often improperly filled out chronicles are just a symptom of a larger problem.
Except that still doesn't answer my question as to what the harm is. How does this harm the campaign? If you are suggesting that GMs show people how to properly fill one out, sure, but that's not an issue of damage or harm to the campaign. It's part of being a GM to help guide new players.
But this thread makes it seems as if somehow this is a significant violation of the rules, and noting in this conversation has demonstrated that it's anything more than a technical violation.
To be clear, I don't think it is a major issue. But I don't get the gnashing of teeth over an insignificant amount of paperwork to ensure that people have a legal character. Between many posters in this thread that will go unnamed, this thread is quickly becoming toxic so I'm going to bail.
But, I want to leave people with this thought, respect the people at your tables. If they ask you to fill out your chronicle before they sign it, do so. If you're ata table and your GM doesn't make you fill out your chronicle, don't judge. Both sides need to just go with the flow and be good to each other. That's much more important to having a healthy gaming environment than anything.
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I don't have a horse in this race in the slightest but here is my two cents.
It is in the guide, therefore it should be followed. If the majority of gm's find it tedious and don't follow the steps the guide outlines, then the guide should be adjusted to include a better process.
This is my opinion for the following reason: let's say 90% of the population steals things from each other. The law says theft is wrong. The 10% is perfectly right to say the 90% need to follow the law or the law needs to be adjusted to fit reality.
I also want to deal with the slippery slope argument put forward. From my reading of the guide there are no clearly defined "this is a rule" or "this is only a guide". We therefore must assume that everything within is a rule otherwise it does indeed set a precedent for choosing to interpret rules as guides and ignoring them.
Bear in mind that the people discussing this topic here are all experienced pfs players so this stuff is clear to you. As someone who started a month ago, I don't know what is a guide or not, so seeing my gm completely ignore portions of the guide puts me on edge, makes me skeptical, and concerned for what other sections of the guide will be ignored and when.
In this case I believe the slippery slope is a perfectly valid argument, specifically when discussing how newer players interact with the community and the guide
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I'm a new-ish GM to Society play
I had, after the Cosmic Captive was finally complete:
30 minutes to finalize the table.
I had the chronicle sheets filled out as completely as feasible with the information I had to fill in. (PP earned, gold earned, experience earned, gold spent, day jobs)
I did *not* have time to take ten minutes per player and go through their chronicle sheets for their last chronicle and verify that all the math was correct and then give it the signature of approval in addition to packing up all of the many things brought for the Special to be out by the 1AM room closing.
Is that the thing I need to be doing from now on?
Should I be pushing to finish the table a half hour earlier than the designated scenario time so my table can play Paperfinder?
I'm a new-ish GM to Society playI had, after the Cosmic Captive was finally complete:
30 minutes to finalize the table.
I had the chronicle sheets filled out as completely as feasible with the information I had to fill in. (PP earned, gold earned, experience earned, gold spent, day jobs)
I did *not* have time to take ten minutes per player and go through their chronicle sheets for their last chronicle and verify that all the math was correct and then give it the signature of approval in addition to packing up all of the many things brought for the Special to be out by the 1AM room closing.
Is that the thing I need to be doing from now on?
Should I be pushing to finish the table a half hour earlier than the designated scenario time so my table can play Paperfinder?
That is not what you should do at all. You should suggest that the guide be changed to a more realistic system
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I know what the Guide says in regards to filling out a Chronicle sheet. But at the end of the day, if all of the information on that sheet is correct, does it really matter how it got there, who put it there and in what order?
What if that opening paragraph under "Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet" on page 14 of the Guide were rewritten slightly to read something like this:
Following is a 10-step walkthrough of how to fill out a Chronicle sheet at the end of a scenario. Refer to the sample Chronicle sheet to the right for the locations of specific elements. GMs should try to adhere to these steps whenever possible, but campaign leadership acknowledges that exceptions might be necessary in certain situations. Always fill out Chronicle sheets in pen, and write clearly and legibly at all times.
Venture-Lieutenant, California—Sacramento
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30 minutes to finalize the table.
30 minutes after the scenario ended to do chronicle filling out! There are so many times at our local games that we go 45 minutes after the time is up, and have to rush to pack up our supplies, and get outside as the store is closing. And then the GM is filling out chronicle sheets on the back of their car in the parking lot. If we get gold/xp/pp earned written in with the GM initials, and the bottom of the chronic sheet filled out we are doing good. I couldn't imagine trying to get 10 minutes per player to do more than that.
Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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I have run over 160 games, and played in nearly 200 and have never seen a chronicle filled out in the manner outlined in the guide.
BUT I appreciate that there is a system that we SHOULD all follow. I think GM Eazy-Earl' s solution is the most elegant, and would cover 99% of use cases.
<snip>
What if that opening paragraph under "Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet" on page 14 of the Guide were rewritten slightly to read something like this:
Following is a 10-step walkthrough of how to fill out a Chronicle sheet at the end of a scenario. Refer to the sample Chronicle sheet to the right for the locations of specific elements. GMs should try to adhere to these steps whenever possible, but campaign leadership acknowledges that exceptions might be necessary in certain situations. Always fill out Chronicle sheets in pen, and write clearly and legibly at all times.