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One reason it's a good idea for the current GM to sign off on a fully completed Chronicle: it ensures conditions get resolved properly. It's an easy thing to miss, and the current GM has a better chance of recalling it than the next GM would.
Another reason: I don't like to sign something and then let people alter it. I wouldn't do it with a cheque (obviously), but also with any sort of report of form I was filling out. Why? Because my signature is certifying that the information contained above is true and correct as far as I can tell. My signature means something, and I don't like to give it away lightly. I have done it, particularly at cons when time slots are tight, but I don't like doing it.
Note: I'm not talking about actually filling out all the stuff for players: I fill in and initial the XP/PP/gold, hand it back, get them to fill in the rest, then take it back and give it a quick check, then sign it. It doesn't take ten minutes per player, and takes 5 minutes total for the table.
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It doesn't take ten minutes per player, and takes 5 minutes total for the table.
I suspect that if one actually measured the time across several GMs that the time would be more than 5 minutes but WAY less than 10 per player (NOT saying you are misstating anything, I just don't trust peoples subjective estimates of time). AFTER the players were trained to ALWAYS bring at least their latest chronicle sheet all filled in.
But even 5 minutes is significant if the scenario is running at all late which they often do. As the GM I already am often the last person to leave the table since I have to pack my stuff after doing the current bookeeping. I'm tired and want to go home.
And I'm an experienced GM with a reasonable grasp on scenario timing and experienced at doing the bookkeeping. New GMs find the bookeeping confusing.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Not all rules violations are the same, but I feel that's what has been posited here. A GM who lets the players fill out their portions of the chronicle sheets after the GM has filled out his or her portion is, I suppose in one hyper-technical fashion, "breaking the rules." That isn't to the same degree as a GM who uses his or her own monsters instead of what's in the scenario or who knowingly permits cheating.
The violation of this rule, if you feel you must call it such, has no practical effect on the game or the campaign, at least as I can se e.
Is this topic so significant, so important, that it requires the immediate attention of campaign leadership? If so, then clearly I have different views about what is important to help improve PFS.
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Not all rules violations are the same, but I feel that's what has been posited here. A GM who lets the players fill out their portions of the chronicle sheets after the GM has filled out his or her portion is, I suppose in one hyper-technical fashion, "breaking the rules." That isn't to the same degree as a GM who uses his or her own monsters instead of what's in the scenario or who knowingly permits cheating.
The violation is this rule, if you feel you must call it such, has no practical effect on the game or the campaign, at least as I can see.
Is this topic so significant, so absurd, that it requires the immediate attention of campaign leadership? If so, then clearly I have different views about what is important to help improve PFS.
I may not be completely objective here, but I have to agree that there are bigger fish to fry. I do support the creation of a more thorough tracking sheet. Although, to me, the Campaign Mode mystery is more important. There may be other things that top that.
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I have to agree with Mark here. Out of over four hundred games I've been a part of across many cons and 3 regions, about two have "followed the rules." And PFS has continued on just fine. The comparison of this game to military service and legal documentation just baffles me. Pathfinder isn't something that needs to be taken that seriously, in my mind.
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What is a player's recourse if they discover when they are doing their own internal audit that they missed buying something (ie, forgot to buy something) IMMEDIATELY when the chronicle was filled out?
Alternatively, what if they'd been saving up for something but couldn't purchase it UNTIL they got the chronicle to have the resources/fame/prestige to do so?
Would that involve more than one handing back and forth of the chronicle sheet?
I'm trying to suss this out so I can figure out how to fall closer to the spirit of the rules (and possibly the letter) while maintaining fairness and openness for my players.
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Paul: well, if you have to train people to bring Chronicle sheets, then I can see why this would be a big deal. For us, no Chronicles, no play - again, because that's the rule.
MisterSlanky: I've also GM'd over 150 games, and the 12.5 hours I've apparently spent has helped our area build a Lodge where we largely don't have to worry about players that don't have their paperwork filled out any more. Personally, I think it's worth it; YMMV.
Recall, we used to *audit* PC's before the game - the GM filling out Chronicles like this was a way to reduce *that* task while still maintaining some level of oversight.
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I should point out - we don't wait for people to do their shopping. They decide between games what they want, put it on their ITS, and it gets "bought" at the start of the next scenario (since all purchases must occur with a GM present, a third area that apparently a lot of people don't follow). So there are no delays for "I want to spend money, what should I do?"
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Note: I'm not talking about actually filling out all the stuff for players: I fill in and initial the XP/PP/gold, hand it back, get them to fill in the rest, then take it back and give it a quick check, then sign it. It doesn't take ten minutes per player, and takes 5 minutes total for the table.
Woah. I can't get all the things signed just filling out the GM stuff in five minutes, never mind waiting and going back and checking accounting.
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(since all purchases must occur with a GM present, a third area that apparently a lot of people don't follow)
Another rule that needs to be dispensed with because it's needlessly cumbersome.
It's at the same level as saying that all character creation and levelling up must be done in the presence of a GM. We don't require that, nor should we. So why should we require that all purchases be done in the presence of a GM?
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To make my proposal a bit more concrete, here's what my proposed accounting sheet would look like.
The "Page Start" line on the first page would have "150" in the gp box, and "0" in both the PP and Fame boxes.
Every gain or loss of gp of PP would go on a line thereafter. This would include all the items of the initial purchase. Description has either the item purchased, or the description of what happens. (E.g. "Day Job" or "Earned on Chronicle sheet" (could be both GP and PP).) The "chron" box has the number of the chronicle sheet this goes with, so that you can keep track of when during your adventuring career these things happened.
gp, PP, and Fame would keep a running total. As many of us used to do in our check registers back before we did all that with spreadsheets and computer registers, we wouldn't have to run the total every single line, but we would every so often.
When we go to a new page, write the gold, PP, and Fame from the last line of the previous page on the "Page Start" line.
If you sell an item, that goes in as a new line, with the right amount (usually half the value of the item) in the "+gp" column. You probably also want to go back and cross out the item on the line where you purchased it -- just line through the description, don't cross out any of the numbers. That will help remind you that you don't have it any more....
Items purchased in lots are purchased in lots of no more than 50. Cross off boxes to indicate you've used individual items or charges.
This would be where all gp and PP and Fame accounting would go. The chronicle sheets would only have the GM boxes, plus starting and ending xp. That is, gp earned, day job, and PP earned. Just those three, that's it. As I suggested, in the Guide, give a replacement right column for the chronicle sheet together with clear instructions that most of the right column on previous scenarios can be ignored. The additional space can be used as a box for writing down conditions gained and cleared. Or, we could put the conditions gained and cleared on this accounting sheet as well! Gaining a condition would not have any gp associated with it, usually, but clearing would.
This would move all the accounting to one place. It would be much easier for players to actually keep track of stuff the way they're supposed to; what we have right now is spread out all over the place and a mess to keep up with, never mind actually audit. It would also allow for GMs to do what most GMs do right now -- hand out filled out chronicle sheets without having to wait for players to do accounting.
Players can do purchases on their own between scenarios. No need for purchases to be done in the presence of a GM. The GM could easily look at the accounting sheet to see what happened before the scenario if she wanted to.
The rest of my proposal would stand (e.g. GMs should be told the must verify that the player has a plausible looking ITS, and should be encouraged to pay a wee bit more attention to them).
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I am one who follows most of the rules in regards to filling out chronicle sheets.
To save time at the end of the session, I ask for chronicle sheets at the beginning of the game, as soon as players sit down.
If the chronicles sheets are not up-to-date, I hand them back and ask that they bring them up-to-date before the end of the session.
For those that do have properly filled out chronicles, while the players introduce themselves, fill out the reporting page, decide who is going to be "face", etc... I start filling out the chronicle sheets, filling in their current XP, Fame, PP and gold. This way, at the end of the night, it is fast to fill in the last couple of bits, ask for day job and if they are spending prestige, and sign.
Where I vary, is that I do not fill in the gold spent or the new total, as it can take some players a while to total up what they spent in the session - I rely on their honesty for that part.
In my area, I am not the only GM who does this, but not all do. However, the players now know to make sure that their chronicles are up-to-date, as they do not always know who will be the GM.
I have even asked players to show me (hold up) their ITS. But I haven't audited any of them yet - haven't felt the need to (because I have asked to see them, players have been more diligent in filling them out).
I have done the above at GenCon, gotten a few strange looks, but all the players went along with it.
I try to be reasonable in my approach, if someone has forgotten their chronicles (this seems to happen more to those who have their character on Hero Lab) at home, but am less lenient after the first couple of times.
I have no issue with how other GMs fill out their chronicles, I simply fill them out to the best of my abilities, following the rules.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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So just read through the entire section on filling out a chronicle sheets in the Season 8 guide (pg. 14) as a refresher since it's been a while (5 years) since I first read it in length. It basically boils down to:
Players fill in the top of the formulas on the right, the GM fill in the grey bits and cross out loot and boons not acquired, then players do the math and make purchases as needed before the GM signs at the bottom.
That's pretty reasonable. It's a good guideline for how to complete the process if you haven't done it tons of times.
In a time crunch or with seasoned participants though, I can understand doing things another way. We're all just trying to enjoy PFS, as far as I'm concerned. And if the sheets are completed correctly, then it's all fine.
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MisterSlanky: I've also GM'd over 150 games, and the 12.5 hours I've apparently spent has helped our area build a Lodge where we largely don't have to worry about players that don't have their paperwork filled out any more. Personally, I think it's worth it; YMMV
I too will stand beside the quality of the local lodge that I too helped build as a Venture Captain...from day zero, with no paperwork.
Unfortunately two of us can play at that game.
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As much as I like options being tossed about some of the issues I've commonly come across don't make them as universal of solutions.
Pre-filling out the sheets
As I learned at GenCon its much less common that people use the slow track option that exists for how many GMs this bothered filling out the sheets. If you pre-fill your sheets with XP/PP/GP -- this does not take into account either a) slow vs. normal or b) out of tier players. I have more sheets where the GM section is a bunch of scribbles as they have to adjust things even as I tell them before hand I'm slow track. I've even had GM's just signing it and going you know how it works better than I do to fill out the rest.
Honestly I fear how much more scribbles would be on the sheet vs. me doing the math -- and that looks to me more like someone cheating with the scribbles on it that I cringe everytime I see a GM have to do that. Even with this being 100% above the board.
ITS into a Cash Register type appearance
If your buying simple items rknop's sheet works -- but it doesn't take into account all character types. Or that people 'mark off' expended uses for wands and items. I have a character that uses wands, alchemical items, specialty arrows, and other things that are not so simply as buy one, sell one. I've had to create an expanded ITS that is nothing but a page of the bottom three rows where I write in the chronicle bought either at the end or in the box - and cross off as they are used. If I had to use this system for those characters -- I would be looking at about a full page if not more a level for the PC. -- I'm already having to shrink chronicle sheets when they are complete to 4 a page because of too much paperwork.
Honestly, I think this hits some of the issues that have come up with other places in PFS -- we are a global organization but the needs and necessities of each individual places are different. The areas I've played in don't require the player to fill in the top and have the GM do the math - I've not seen in 3+ years any issues where the numbers don't get added up properly. I can see areas where this has happened - when I created the Expanded ITS sheet and posted it to the boards -- it came up where people suggested that people shouldn't track these items why did I even bother creating the sheet. So it's an issue for some, not for others.
I would suggest allowing it to be up to the discretion of the locals and table. If places where this is not needed, we're going to hit another issue that has come up in another thread of paperwork overload for some players, and you can hit a wall of too much paperwork will drive players away. They sign up to play, not fill out mounds of paperwork (which in some cases remind them of their rl job they are coming to escape to).
Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West
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To make my proposal a bit more concrete, here's what my proposed accounting sheet would look like.
The "Page Start" line on the first page would have "150" in the gp box, and "0" in both the PP and Fame boxes.
Every gain or loss of gp of PP would go on a line thereafter. This would include all the items of the initial purchase. Description has either the item purchased, or the description of what happens. (E.g. "Day Job" or "Earned on Chronicle sheet" (could be both GP and PP).) The "chron" box has the number of the chronicle sheet this goes with, so that you can keep track of when during your adventuring career these things happened.
gp, PP, and Fame would keep a running total. As many of us used to do in our check registers back before we did all that with spreadsheets and computer registers, we wouldn't have to run the total every single line, but we would every so often.
When we go to a new page, write the gold, PP, and Fame from the last line of the previous page on the "Page Start" line.
If you sell an item, that goes in as a new line, with the right amount (usually half the value of the item) in the "+gp" column. You probably also want to go back and cross out the item on the line where you purchased it -- just line through the description, don't cross out any of the numbers. That will help remind you that you don't have it any more....
Items purchased in lots are purchased in lots of no more than 50. Cross off boxes to indicate you've used individual items or charges.
This would be where all gp and PP and Fame accounting would go. The chronicle sheets would only have the GM boxes, plus starting and ending xp. That is, gp earned, day job, and PP earned. Just those three, that's it. As I suggested, in the Guide, give a replacement right column for the chronicle sheet together with clear instructions that most of the right column on previous scenarios can be ignored. The additional space...
This is basically what I already do as a player. It is a great idea, then there is no need to cross check your chronicles and you spending, it is all in one place. Bravo!!
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ITS into a Cash Register type appearance
If your buying simple items rknop's sheet works -- but it doesn't take into account all character types. Or that people 'mark off' expended uses for wands and items. I have a character that uses wands, alchemical items, specialty arrows, and other things that are not so simply as buy one, sell one.
That's what the fifty boxes on the left side of each line are for. Things you buy in lots, you cross off boxes as you use them.
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So just read through the entire section on filling out a chronicle sheets in the Season 8 guide (pg. 14) as a refresher since it's been a while (5 years) since I first read it in length. It basically boils down to:
Players fill in the top of the formulas on the right, the GM fill in the grey bits and cross out loot and boons not acquired, then players do the math and make purchases as needed before the GM signs at the bottom.
The 'fill-in-at-the-start' boxes should be visually distinct in the same way that the GM-only boxes are (grey). Perhaps a bold dash around the perimeter of the box or something?
That would help speed up the filling-in and make it easy to see if anything was missed.