A viable arcane trickster build?

[SirPeter]

Hello everybody.

I'll start to play an Adventure Path and I'm planning to make an arcane trickster, something like this:

Half-elf unchained rogue 1/wizard 4/arcane trickster 10

Traits:
Reactionary
Magical Knack

25-pts buy
Str 10
Dex 16+2
Con 12
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 10

Feats
1st- Skill Focus (Bluff) (B); Improved Initiative
3rd- PBS
5th- Accomplished Sneak Attacker
7th- Precise Shot
9th- Ranged Feint
11th- Combat Expertise
13th- Improved Feint
15th- Greater Feint

My idea here is substitute the lack of BaB by a high Bluff and feint my enemies to attack them flat-footed.

Any suggestions? If goes to level 16th, which would be better, wizard 5 or rogue 2?

Thank you for the attention.

[avr]

Until you get improved feint at 13th level the action economy is against you. Casting vanish would work better before then and requires no feats. Feinting is going to be a very late game thing for you; maybe you could find a better use for the feats? Quicken spell if nothing else.

At 16th, would you rather have 8th level spells, or a feat plus evasion and 6 extra skill points? At that point I'd pick the spells & buy a ring for evasion but YMMV.

[Kurald Galain]

Your best way to deal sneak attack is by flanking. If your party doesn't have a good flanking buddy, consider one level of Mesmerist so you can flank with yourself a couple times per day.

Of course, your feat choice suggests you prefer ranged combat, which makes this harder. A worthwhile build may be Ninja 2 (instead of rogue 1) so you can use the swift action invisibility trick.

Find a way to have extra attacks, to multiply your sneak attack damage. Prioritize rapid shot over PBS/precise, and take attack boosting feats before improved init. See, the nice thing about init is that you don't need to win init over every enemy; you just need init over one enemy.

At level 13, you don't need improved feint any more; just cast Greater Invis on yourself.

[SirPeter]

@avr you're right... any suggestions about the feats progression? I just want to make something effective.

@Kurald Galain yes, he will be a ranged combatant, since his BaB is like a pure wizard, so I'll use ranged touch spells to deal sneak attacks. The high initiative is to caught the enemies flat-footed in the first round. Any suggestions about the feats progression?

[Vanykrye]

If you're going to go to URogue 2, you should do it earlier rather than later - use the rogue talent to pick up Combat Expertise, which helps move Improved Feint up a couple levels earlier. The major trade off, of course, is delaying access to spells and delaying access to Trickster.

Another option - don't take Improved Initiative. I know all the reasons why this character should take it, and they are compelling. However, there are spells, including low-level ones, that help with initiative (anticipate peril, cat's grace, etc). Depending on the AP and your DM, it's also possible that you could get a magic item or two that gives an initiative bonus.

If you do go URogue 2 (I'm not saying you should - depends on what your ultimate goal is), then you could go with this:
1: SF Bluff (B), PBS
2: Combat Expertise
3: Imp Feint
.
.
.
11: Greater Feint

After you're done with Arcane Trickster, you should absolutely continue on with Wiz levels, without question.

[Scott Wilhelm]

The way your character is right now, you are only taking 1 non-arcane-spellcaster. The rest will all be Wizard and Arcane Trickster, and so you won't be a burden to your party.

It occurs to me that your build would be almost the same if you were going to be an Eldritch Knight. 1 level in Fighter or something, 5 levels in Wizard, and the rest in Eldritch Knight, or switch to Arcane Archer at some point. I'm not really telling you to do that: I'm saying your character would be similar if you did, mostly wizard with a couple of well-rounding options.

I played an Arcane Trickster a little. I found him to be a so-so Wizard, but a really awesome Rogue, boosting his Skill Checks with magic spells. He wasn't much use in combat, but he was very useful to the party in other areas.

I was thinking about a character that takes maximum advantage of Sneak Attack and Spells. I was thinking of taking 2 levels in Ninja for the Vanishing Trick. Then I would take a level in Arcanist and acquire a Wand of Scorching Ray. Scorching Ray is a Ranged Touch Attack that does 4d6 damage, and when you use the Ninja Vanishing Trick as a Swift Action, you are Invisible, and your targets get no Dex Mod to AC, so now it is a Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flatfooted AC and you get your Sneak Attack Damage on top of that! Plus, you have other options like those Cantrips Acid Splash, Finger of Cold, and Jolt, also Ranged Touch Attacks.

Then I would take 3 levels in Monk, Drunken Master and take the Potion Glutton Feat so I could replenish Ki by Drinking as either a Swift or a Standard (Normal) action. Then I could use Vanishing Trick all I want.

I might take a 4th level in Quinngong Monk and take Scorching Ray that way. To go on to be an Arcane Trickster, I'd just take levels in Arcanist. Wizard might be a better choice than Arcanist. Wizard gives earlier access to cool stuff, but those Arcane Exploits are really cool, such as Dimensional Hop, a tactical teleport that doesn't disorient you, so you can better achieve Flanking.

It will take longer before you start taking levels in Arcane Trickster, but Ninja Vanishing Trick is a great way to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage on top of your Spells. Arcanist will make you take longer to get the spells you need, but those Arcane Exploits you get meanwhile might make it well worth it. There is also the question of why you want to be an Arcane Trickster in the first place. If the reason is that you want to stack attack spells with sneak attack damage, I think I'm onto the best way to do that. If you just want to be a Wizard who can do some non-wizardly things, then go the more normal way.

[SirPeter]

I need to have some wiz tricks, since the party comp is an alchemist (grenadier), an oradin (paladin focused) and a samurai, so my PC have to be good in skills and arcane spells in some way.

EDIT: maybe an Exploiter Wizard could be a viable archetype?

[Minah]

Look at the spell Twilight Knife. It creates a floating knife that can give you flanking and attacks on its own.

[master_marshmallow]

Does your DM let Unrogue and Eldritch Scoundrel stack?

Do that, better BAB, casting like a magus but with a better spell list.

Dimensional Agility-> Savant feat chain is fantastic for self sufficiency. Get all the different ways to sneak attack.

You'll have to take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 3rd or 5th level to qualify for the class at 5th, which will yield a more powerful combatant rogue. Outflank works with the combo giving you +4 on attacks instead of +2 when using dimensional savant.

Alternatively you could take 7 levels of straight wizard with VMC rogue, and use retraining to pick up Accomplished Sneak Attacker and take Arcane Trickster starting at 7th level and lose nothing on your spellcasting progression.

[UnArcaneElection]

^Going Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster is not so good -- in that case, Arcane Trickster degrades your BAB/HD progression while not improving your 6/9 spellcasting progression (that is, it progresses at its own full speed, but is still 6/9, which is not what you want with 1/2 BAB, d6 HD).

Also see this thread about building a modern Arcane Trickster and this thread about early entry into Arcane Trickster.

[master_marshmallow]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Going Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster is not so good -- in that case, Arcane Trickster degrades your BAB/HD progression while not improving your 6/9 spellcasting progression (that is, it progresses at its own full speed, but is still 6/9, which is not what you want with 1/2 BAB, d6 HD).

Also see this thread about building a modern Arcane Trickster and this thread about early entry into Arcane Trickster.

It works with Unrogue, because free Weapon Finesse and DEX/damage. Your combat style is covered by the class so you can put your feats on other things.

If Unrogue and Eldritch Scoundrel don't stack (which might be the case as the PFS overlords like to bleed their play style into the real RPG) then you are of course correct.

[Vanykrye]

The OP's intent is to be a ranged character. The DEX to Dam part of URogue isn't as likely to come into play for this character.

[UnArcaneElection]

master_marshmallow wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Going Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster is not so good -- in that case, Arcane Trickster degrades your BAB/HD progression while not improving your 6/9 spellcasting progression (that is, it progresses at its own full speed, but is still 6/9, which is not what you want with 1/2 BAB, d6 HD).

Also see this thread about building a modern Arcane Trickster and this thread about early entry into Arcane Trickster.

It works with Unrogue, because free Weapon Finesse and DEX/damage. Your combat style is covered by the class so you can put your feats on other things.

If Unrogue and Eldritch Scoundrel don't stack (which might be the case as the PFS overlords like to bleed their play style into the real RPG) then you are of course correct.

As far as I know, the ban on Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel is PFS-specific, but it doesn't change what I said above about Eldritch Scoundrel not working well with a prestige class designed for entry from a d6, 1/2 BAB, 9/9 spellcasting base class having limited class features other than spellcasting -- this is a common problem with prestige classes that advance spellcasting, and is just as bad for a Bard or Magus as for an Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (and even only okay for an Arcanist or for a Sorcerer that has a real standout Bloodline, or for an Exploiter Wizard, even though these are 9/9 spellcasters, because they depend to some extent on non-spellcasting class features, and even worse for a Witch). We need a Prestige Classes Unchained . . . .

[Derek Dalton]

Arcane Trickster on paper is okay in practice it's not really. If you plan on sneak attacking consider a level or two of Shadow Dancer. At first level hide in plain sight. Second darkvision of 60ft if you lack it. Also pick what you are planning to do ranged or melee sneak attack and focus on the one not try and do both. If you want to buff yourself for combat pick Magus over straight Wizard. Low levels you get light armor without spell failure. As a Wizard you would always have that even with two feats.
Another idea is consider Catfolk over human. Loss of a feat but a couple of feats and a rogue talent offset the loss.

[SirPeter]

After the suggestions, I thought something like this:

1st: the party comp is a samurai, an oradin (paladin focused) and an alchemist (grenadier).

2nd: We will use the Automatic Bonus Progression rules.

With that in mind, here it is:

Half-elf (Dual Minded) unchained rogue 1/exploiter wizard 5/arcane trickster 10

Traits:
Reactionary
Magical Knack

25-pts buy
Str 10
Dex 16+2
Con 12
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 10

Feats
URogue 1st- PBS (feat)
Wiz 2nd- Scribe Scroll (bonus feat), Arcane Reservoir, Exploiter Exploit (Dimensional Slide)
Wiz 3rd- Accomplished Sneak Attacker (feat)
Wiz 4th
Wiz 5th- Precise Shot (feat)
ArT 6th- Ranged legerdemain
ArT 7th- Sneak attack 3d6, Extra Arcanist Exploit (Potent Magic) (feat)/Dimensional Agility (feat)
ArT 8th- Impromptu sneak attack 1/day
ArT 9th- Sneak attack 4d6, Dimensional Agility (feat)/Extra Arcanist Exploit (Potent Magic) (feat)
ArT 10th- Tricky spells 3/day
ArT 11th- Sneak attack 5d6, Rapid Shot (feat)
ArT 12th- Impromptu sneak attack 2/day, tricky spells 4/day
ArT 13th- Sneak attack 6d6, Quicken Spell (feat)
ArT 14th- Invisible thief, tricky spells 5/day
ArT 15th- Sneak attack 7d6, surprise spells, Spell Penetration (feat)
Wiz 16th - Exploiter Exploit (Shadow Veil) (bonus feat)

Well, if the GM doesn't allow to take the Extra Arcanist Exploit feat, I don't know if it will be an advantage use the Exploiter Wizard archetype, since his Arcane Resevoir will be very low (3 + 1/2 wiz levels).

To tell the truth, I don't know if the archetype (xploiter Wizard) will be so useful, since he PC will "lost" one school spell per level, and a Foresight wizard could be very interesting for this build.

What do you think? Suggestions?

[Kurald Galain]

Potent Magic is only useful if you're going to use saving throw spells, and as an AT you're probably not going to do that much. Note that you can take the School Understanding exploit to gain the foresight ability.

Dim.Agility requires level 8.

[SirPeter]

Dimensional ability requires only the abundant step ability or cast dimension door, which is filled by the dimensional slide exploit, if I'm not wrong.

[master_marshmallow]

So, Horror Adventures had a new half elf variant which lets you get +1CL when multiclassing two different spellcasting classes.
It is unclear how that affects prestige classes, but it could get your missing CL back without wasting a trait.

[SirPeter]

master_marshmallow wrote:

So, Horror Adventures had a new half elf variant which lets you get +1CL when multiclassing two different spellcasting classes.

It is unclear how that affects prestige classes, but it could get your missing CL back without wasting a trait.

Do you know this trait's name?

[Dastis]

Unless its been errata-ed you should meet the requirements for arcane trickster at lv4 meaning you can go into it at lv5

[skizzerz]

SirPeter wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

So, Horror Adventures had a new half elf variant which lets you get +1CL when multiclassing two different spellcasting classes.

It is unclear how that affects prestige classes, but it could get your missing CL back without wasting a trait.

Do you know this trait's name?

"Multidisciplined: Born to two races, half-elves have a knack for combining different magical traditions. If a half-elf with this racial trait has spellcasting abilities from at least two different classes, the effects of spells she casts from all her classes are calculated as though her caster level were 1 level higher, to a maximum of her character level. This racial trait replaces multitalented."

I'm not sure whether or not it'd apply to a PrC such as Arcane Trickster, but my initial gut says that it won't because AT simply advances your existing spellcasting class rather than granting new spellcasting abilities.

[Zabraxis]

I was looking into an Arcane Trickster myself with the idea of sniping with Expert Sniper. My thinking was using a single shot spell +SA for a surgical nuke of sorts.

I haven't pulled the trigger since I'm still leery on how much cover will be available in your average game. A halfling w/ Human Shadow could work around this but that's no legal for PFS.

[Son of the Veterinarian]

Look seriously at a Kinetic (Telekinetic). I played one at Gen Con and had a blast picking locks & stealing stuff from 30 ft at level 2. I didn't have Trapfinding, but that's because the trait that would let me take it isn't PFS legal.

[BadBird]

Specializing in the spell Battering Blast can be very deadly with Exploiter Wizard, since you can easily raise the CL and throw on metamagic. Potent Magic and Spell Specialization raise the CL by +2 each, meaning that at level 6 you can already throw 2x5d6 force damage plus +10 bullrush plus reflex save or knocked prone. Intensified Spell will raise it to 2x7d6 each by CL14, and then at CL15 (by level 11 at the latest) you've got 3x7d6. Empower Spell also provides a lot more punch at higher levels.

[avr]

Potent Magic does have the option of adding to caster level instead of saves which will be useful sometimes when blasting. A foresight wizard gains utility spells but largely not combat ones - divination is only occasionally useful in combat, heightened awarenesss, sense invisibility & find fault are as close as you come. How much do you want to focus on combat?

& are you sure that you want Rapid Shot? You'll be an 11th level character with BAB +5 (OK,+6 if you use fractional BAB) when you get it. Another metamagic feat, maybe a zero-level one like Merciful Spell or Fleeting Spell might be more useful; or something like Seeking Spell or Empower Spell if you're willing to pay the level cost. Or you could just get Spell Penetration early.

Edit: or, seeing BadBird's suggestion above, Intensified Spell.