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How much is Celestial Armor made of Steel?
wanted to save this for another thread but meh whatever
we all know Mike Brock said there is no path to upgrade to Celestial Armor back in 2012 ... which I still Ascribe to
however in 2014 when UE was released .. the description of it changed to
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
vs
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
now while Im not saying its legit, Right or should override what Mike said in 2012 but a discussion can happen on it once again because the "Silvery Gold" description was removed
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Good catch.
But the point I was eluding to was that if someone argues that a Special Material can be added to a specific magic item, then the reverse should also be true and magic items constructed of Special Materials should be available in mundane versions.
I'd personally love Fullplate of Speed. Mithral is expensive.
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Good catch.
But the point I was eluding to was that if someone argues that a Special Material can be added to a specific magic item, then the reverse should also be true and magic items constructed of Special Materials should be available in mundane versions.
I'd personally love Fullplate of Speed. Mithral is expensive.
The benefit is the weight reduction, if you're actually worried about that... and the ability to treat it as medium armor versus heavy...
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Regarding this topic, seems like the core issue is in how "upgrades" function in PFS. Is the upgrade essentially the option to sell the +1 longsword at full price when buying a new Shatterspike? Or is the +1 longsword becoming shatterspike?
(1)Seems like if the +1 longsword is becoming shatterspike, then the material of the +1 longsword would be same material as shatterspike.
(2)On the other hand, if you are just buying a new weapon, and you just get to sell the similar weapon at full price, then material of the +1 longsword only matters in regards to price, since shatterspike is an entirely seperate item.
So, for example, if I have a +1 longsword that's made of adamantine, then in "upgrading" it to Shatterspike, for the first method, then the resulting Shatterspike should also be adamantine. This is because it is the same weapon, just an upgraded version of that same weapon.
Using the second method, a +1 longsword made of adamantine should matter in regards to the additional gold needed to purchase Shatterspike, but it won't affect the material of Shatterspike. This is because the two are seperate weapons.
I think it would be worth clarifying how upgrades work, since PFS doesn't allow crafting, but does allow "upgrades."
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I disagree, but everyone builds their characters differently.Considering there is another item that does exactly the same thing mechanically yes it's primary benefit is the Mithral.
I have no idea what you mean?
The primary benefit of Mithril Fullplate of Speed is mithril? Not speed?
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Ok, sure, I'll buy that, but what makes you think you can change named items to anything but exactly what they are? Cause otherwise you'd have the sticky wicket of someone making celestial armor adamantine.Special Materials are decided when the base item is created. An item isn't "upgraded" into a material, it starts its existence that way.I see the FAQ and I can't see which part is preventing me from having a special material on a named magic item. Upgrades are a specific game mechanic found in the magic item creation rules. Special Materials are never referred to as "upgrades" as far as I can find.
For some reason the idea of making a magic item (for example) out of a superior material seems to SCREAM 'upgrade' to me?
EDIT: Also, be sure to leave a tip in the jar for the Necromancers Guild.
Outside of PFS?
Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that possess innate special properties.A suit of armor or a shield may be made of an unusual material. Roll d%: 01–95 indicates that the item is of a standard sort, and 96–100 indicates that it is made of a special material (see Chapter 6).
We aren't outside of PFS. This is a PFS forum. But you know that.
So bringing up what a GM might allow in their home campaign isn't really relevant.
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Is Celestial Armor an armor? Yes.
Can Armor be crafted using Adamantine? Yes.
And then the creation rules explicitly say you could use other materials:
Some new items are really existing magic items with a different weapon or armor type, such as a dagger of venom that is a rapier instead of a dagger or a lion's shield that's a wooden shield instead of a metal shield. For these items, just replace the price of the nonmagical masterwork item with the cost of the new type of item. For example, a rapier of venom has a price of 8,320 gp instead of the dagger of venom's price of 8,302 gp.So yeah, you can definitely do it outside of PFS.
Only if your GM interprets the rules the same way you do.
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I was just clarifying that it has rules support outside of PFS. I already stated that I can see now why weapons and armor don't work (they start as an item and are upgraded into specific items and because of the FAQ the material needs to match the end product).
But what about items that aren't weapons or armor? Dark wood staves and such.
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I already stated that I can see now why weapons and armor don't work (they start as an item and are upgraded into specific items and because of the FAQ the material needs to match the end product).
Kinda unclear when the weapon doesn't list a material. The Mace of Terror, for example, specifically lists it as an Iron or Steel Heavy Mace. Shatterspike, on the other hand, doesn't say.
Then you have items like the Force Tower Shield, which is Mithril, despite tower shields being unable to be made with mithril (as far as I know). So, from a strict upgrade stance, a +1 Tower Shield cannot be upgraded to a Force Tower Shield.
And last, you have items which list a generic material, rather than a specific one. For example, any item listed as made of wood, instead of mentioning the specific wood used (because it matters to some spells).
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The ruling isn't just for weapons and armor. It's for magic items in general.
People just tend to focus on weapons because some Special Materials help overcome DR.
The ruling is for items that are upgraded and I'm pointing at the idea that some items are created during magic item creation rather than upgraded during magic item creation (weapons and armor).
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The ruling is for items that are upgraded and I'm pointing at the idea that some items are created during magic item creation rather than upgraded during magic item creation (weapons and armor).
Which is a questionable loophole to start with and ignores that the entire rationale for the lack of an upgrade path is that you can't make specific armors out of special materials that they're not made out of already.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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No more than you can make a Steel Shatterspike, or an Iron Shatterspike. Shatterspike has no rules for it's material. It is material-less.
You can no more create a Darkleaf Handy Haversack than you can an Adamantine Shatterspike, because neither exist in game.
By your reading. By mine and others, it's the material of the default base weapon unless otherwise specified.
Short of a FAQ both sides have to accept they are saying what they strongly believe the rules say. One side will have far more people subscribed.
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No more than you can make a Steel Shatterspike, or an Iron Shatterspike. Shatterspike has no rules for it's material. It is material-less.
You can no more create a Darkleaf Handy Haversack than you can an Adamantine Shatterspike, because neither exist in game.By your reading. By mine and others, it's the material of the default base weapon unless otherwise specified.
Short of a FAQ both sides have to accept they are saying what they strongly believe the rules say. One side will have far more people subscribed.
I'm surprised with you, normally you are more rules oriented (and I've come to respect that about you). A "majority rules" argument? Not really a good rules solution. I mean, it's close to as good as "ask your GM."
Regarding the rules, there are no rules, as far as I can tell, to suggest that the longsword is anything other than a "metal" weapon. And, mechanically, we don't need additional rules, since the CRB determines HP and hardness based on the weapon being "metal" or "wood" not specific materials.
Anyway, for solutions, there is a super easy solution for PFS, which I've already mentioned:
Disallow upgrading. Instead, players may sell their lesser weapon/armor for full price, towards the purchase of a more impressive weapon/armor of the same type. Since it's a "new" item rather than an upgrade, the issue of base material in previous weapon is elminated, and we just read the text for the new weapon purchased (which if it doesn't list a material, doesn't have one other than being "metal" or "wood" regarding sunder attempts). If the sold weapon is more expensive, players cannot gain GP via this method (excess is lost) over the price of a new weapon.
As an aside, a +1 longsword made of adamantine is 1000gp more expensive than Shatterspike (5,315gp vs 4,315gp). So it would be a downgrade, in most respects, to replace one with the other. Using the above method, the player would just lose 1000gp of their weapon's value - though that is still a better deal than selling at half price.
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I'm surprised with you, normally you are more rules oriented (and I've come to respect that about you). A "majority rules" argument? Not really a good rules solution. I mean, it's close to as good as "ask your GM."
Regarding the rules, there are no rules, as far as I can tell, to suggest that the longsword is anything other than a "metal" weapon. And, mechanically, we don't need additional rules, since the CRB determines HP and hardness based on the weapon being "metal" or "wood" not specific materials.
Anyway, for solutions, there is a super easy solution for PFS, which I've already mentioned:
Disallow upgrading. Instead, players may sell their lesser weapon/armor for full price, towards the purchase of a more impressive weapon/armor of the same type. Since it's a "new" item rather than an upgrade, the issue of base material in previous weapon is elminated, and we just read the text for the new weapon purchased (which if it doesn't list a material, doesn't have one other than being "metal" or "wood" regarding sunder attempts). If the sold weapon is more expensive, players cannot gain GP via this method (excess is lost) over the price of a new weapon.
As an aside, a +1 longsword made of adamantine is 1000gp more expensive than Shatterspike (5,315gp vs 4,315gp). So it would be a downgrade, in most respects, to replace one with the other. Using the above method, the player...
Okay.
I'm going to take this out of the hypothetical Internet discussion corner case and put it into the context of 'how it would play out at a table' regardless of what situation is already in place.
Player: "So I'm upgrading my +1 MacGuffin to Adamantine"
PFS GM: "Wasn't it made of Adamantine originally?"
Player: "No, I'm changing the materials it's made of."
PFS GM: "I'm going to say *no* and if there's a concern about this decision at my table, the Venture (insert position here) is over there, and you may consult with them after the slot is over about my determination."
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Magical items are exactly what they say they are. If it doesn't say that it's adamantine , its not adamantine. You can not declare that it is adamantine just because it doesn't say that it isn't, that would be cheating. You cannot make an adamantine shatterspike because that would be customization, which is not allowed. You cannot upgrade shatterspike to adamantine, because thats not allowed either.
Guide page 19 (which has been there since 4.2 if not longer)
Mundane items cannot be upgraded to masterwork items, nor can
nonmagical aspects of equipment be upgraded, such as
the strength rating on a composite bow
So there is no way to wind up with an adamantine shatterspike. If you have one, that is NOT "viewing the rules differently" it is either rules ignorance or cheating.
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Magical items are exactly what they say they are. If it doesn't say that it's adamantine , its not adamantine. You can not declare that it is adamantine just because it doesn't say that it isn't, that would be cheating. You cannot make an adamantine shatterspike because that would be customization, which is not allowed. You cannot upgrade shatterspike to adamantine, because thats not allowed either.
Guide page 19 (which has been there since 4.2 if not longer)
Mundane items cannot be upgraded to masterwork items, nor can
nonmagical aspects of equipment be upgraded, such as
the strength rating on a composite bowSo there is no way to wind up with an adamantine shatterspike. If you have one, that is NOT "viewing the rules differently" it is either rules ignorance or cheating.
Correct, If I bought Shatterspike, I would be unable to add the adamantine property to it. That is not what is being discussed.
Despite being unable to "customize" weapons, we are allowed to upgrade existing weapons into other weapons. The only limitation is that, if the specific weapon mentions a material, that the existing weapon needs to be of that material. Shatterspike has no listed material. It is within the rules to take a +1 longsword (of any material) and upgrade it to Shatterspike. There's no reason that this upgraded weapon would not be the same base material as the previous weapon it was upgrade from (under the current rules as written).
If the intention is that Shatterspike is a +1 longsword made of Steel, it should really say this somewhere. Weapons like the Mace of Terror, specifically mention they are "Iron or Steel" in their description, eliminating such issues.
And PS: Shatterspike is the example others were using. I'm using it because it fits the genaric question, not because I have any desire for an adamantine shatterspike.
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Are named items (such as specific armors) purchaseable in Small size if the size is unmentioned, or is any non-mentioning item assumed to be Medium-only? I know there's an adventure with a Large named weapion, but adventures get to do things we do not.
If small is allowed, weight would be modified as normal, right?
There's another grey area one, as the rules do not cover this. As written, it's only assumed that they are medium weapons because the weapon usually lists a weight and the cost usually reflects the cost of a medium weapon. But named weapons rarely state their size.
Some debates even exist regarding reducing the cost if you get smaller version of a named weapon with weight-based special material costs. Totally unclear how this functions in PFS.
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a normal steel longsword is called longsword.
an adamantine longsword is called adamantine longsword.
So if something says +1 longsword, especially since some specific items are listed as "this ... adamantine X", it's using the default material.
Source that all weapons that don't list material are automatically steel?
A +1 Adamantine Longsword is just as much a +1 Longsword is as a +1 Steel Longsword would be. Both are +1 Longswords.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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a normal steel longsword is called longsword.
an adamantine longsword is called adamantine longsword.
So if something says +1 longsword, especially since some specific items are listed as "this ... adamantine X", it's using the default material.Source that all weapons that don't list material are automatically steel?
A +1 Adamantine Longsword is just as much a +1 Longsword is as a +1 Steel Longsword would be. Both are +1 Longswords.
Because Adamantine is its own property that modifies the base value of steel and has paragraphs of text differentiating it from steel. So no they aren't the same.
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Are named items (such as specific armors) purchaseable in Small size if the size is unmentioned, or is any non-mentioning item assumed to be Medium-only? I know there's an adventure with a Large named weapion, but adventures get to do things we do not.
If small is allowed, weight would be modified as normal, right?
There's another grey area one, as the rules do not cover this. As written, it's only assumed that they are medium weapons because the weapon usually lists a weight and the cost usually reflects the cost of a medium weapon. But named weapons rarely state their size.
Some debates even exist regarding reducing the cost if you get smaller version of a named weapon with weight-based special material costs. Totally unclear how this functions in PFS.
What? No. There is nothing "unclear" about purchasing small-sized versions of weapons or armor. In Pathfinder or in PFS. The Guide even reiterates this. They're half the weight, and the same price.
Now wondrous items are different, but that's a failing of the Pathfinder RPG, not PFS. While you would assume and expect that a small-sized Handy Haversack would weigh half (or even a quarter) of a regular Haversack, it doesn't.
Which is somewhat understandable from a balance perspective, because then every medium character would be running around with ill fitting cloaks and tiny hats just to save on encumbrance.
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Hey, that normal 15 gp sword doesn't SAY its steel. Therefore its adamantium. QED.
Your sarcasm is not appreciated. If not sarcasm, then you are deliberately distorting my point to get a more extreme reaction from others. Neither are helpful.
And I'm not arguing costs. The rules regarding the cost of an adamantium weapon are pretty clear and I'm not disputing that. My dispute is regarding the concept of "upgrading" as it applies to PFS in regards to named weapons/armor without listed materials.
The 15gp longsword could be steel, but it could also be a different metal (or an alloy). The Sunder rules reflect metal weapons and wooden weapons, not steel weapons or oak weapons.
Switch off the longsword for a sec, I could get a masterwork Oak Club or a masterwork Spruce Club. Mechanically, these are both wooden weapons, but if Shillelagh was attempted on both, only one of the castings would function and the other would fail.
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What? No. There is nothing "unclear" about purchasing small-sized versions of weapons or armor. In Pathfinder or in PFS. The Guide even reiterates this. They're half the weight, and the same price.
I had some threads going on this a while back. No end of conflicting answers regarding small versions of named items. And, for that matter, Large versions of named items.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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a normal steel longsword is called longsword.
an adamantine longsword is called adamantine longsword.
So if something says +1 longsword, especially since some specific items are listed as "this ... adamantine X", it's using the default material.Source that all weapons that don't list material are automatically steel?
A +1 Adamantine Longsword is just as much a +1 Longsword is as a +1 Steel Longsword would be. Both are +1 Longswords.
Specific items have specific prices. If you changed the material, the price of the specific item would have to change. Since PFS does not allow customized items, any item that doesn't list cold iron or adamantine, etc. in its description is not made of special matierials. (See Holy Avenger or Mace of Smiting)
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Specific items have specific prices. If you changed the material, the price of the specific item would have to change. Since PFS does not allow customized items, any item that doesn't list cold iron or adamantine, etc. in its description is not made of special matierials. (See Holy Avenger or Mace of Smiting)
Keep tossing around that term, "customized," but I'm not sure it means what you think it means. You can't craft your own weapons and you can't make up your own named weapons, but taking an existing weapon and improving (also called upgrading) it to a better weapon is legal in PFS.
Grey area-wise, Named weapons and size of the weapon is a huge issue that does not appear to be covered (and is unclear if it qualifies as customizing).
If my small character wants a Shatterspike, can I buy a Small one? If yes, does this small version have reduced weight? Likewise, can my medium character purchase a Large one? Does the Large version have increased weight/cost? Do these changes in cost/weight count as a customization, why/why not?
I have been told, on this very forum, that small versions of Named weapons requires GM persmission to create/purchase outside of PFS. For PFS, they suggest that this banned entirely, since it "customizes" the base weapon. I don't think this is correct, but the arguement does exist. I have no idea how this really is supposed to function for PFS. For home games, definitely seems like a silly ruling.
I also have yet to see the quote that indicates that all weapons are steel, unless a special material is purchased. I wouldn't be surprised if such a quote can be found, but I've not be able to find it.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Keep tossing around that term, "customized," but I'm not sure it means what you think it means. You can't craft your own weapons and you can't make up your own named weapons, but taking an existing weapon and improving (also called upgrading) it to a better weapon is legal in PFS.Specific items have specific prices. If you changed the material, the price of the specific item would have to change. Since PFS does not allow customized items, any item that doesn't list cold iron or adamantine, etc. in its description is not made of special matierials. (See Holy Avenger or Mace of Smiting)
Changing a named weapon to be made from a different material would count as customization. That is not the weapon that is presented in the books, so it cannot be considered legal.
Read the magic weapons page. When generating treasure, 95% of items are made from standard materials.
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Keep tossing around that term, "customized," but I'm not sure it means what you think it means. You can't craft your own weapons and you can't make up your own named weapons, but taking an existing weapon and improving (also called upgrading) it to a better weapon is legal in PFS.
Princess bride needs that quote back. It means exactly what i think it means.
No, you cannot upgrade named weapons either. unless they tell you how to do so.
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Keep tossing around that term, "customized," but I'm not sure it means what you think it means. You can't craft your own weapons and you can't make up your own named weapons, but taking an existing weapon and improving (also called upgrading) it to a better weapon is legal in PFS.Princess bride needs that quote back. It means exactly what i think it means.
No, you cannot upgrade named weapons either. unless they tell you how to do so.
You can upgrade TO named items, which is what I am talking about. This is allowed in PFS.
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What is being argued here now?
We know you can't purchase an Adamantine Shatterspike (or Mithral Celestial Armor, Steel Fullplate of Speed, etc). Arguing that further is just trolling.
We know you can purchase small-sized versions of magic arms and armor. They cost the same as their medium-sized equivalent, and weigh half as much. Arguing that further is trolling.
We know that pricing large-sized items made of special materials is unclear. If you want to debate that further, there are threads just for that.
It seems to me that this thread has run its course. Yes?
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It seems to me that this thread has run its course. Yes?
At this stage, you guys are doing the trolling. You all keep objecting to things I'm not suggesting, you suggest following rules that don't exist (or if they do exist, you won't help me find them), and then you accuse me of trolling. Very passive agressive, pretending that I'm the agressor here. But, yeah, we do seem to be at an impasse of sorts, so I suppose if you remain unwilling to listen/understand, then you are correct, this thread isn't going to go anywhere.
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Step 1: Assume a position that is only supported by the rules in the absence of logic and reading comprehension, in a medium notorious for people arguing nonsense positions to cause trouble.
Step 2: React aggressively to any suggestion that you might be incorrect, or that you might be arguing nonsense (again, in a medium where this is a common practice).
Step 3: Repeat until the forums are utterly useless for actual questions.
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also have yet to see the quote that indicates that all weapons are steel, unless a special material is purchased. .
The reason is right there in your own quotes. "special material" As in this thing is normally made out of regular stuff, and if it was made out of different stuff it would tell you. . Since it doesn't tell you it's made out of different stuff, it's made out of regular stuff.
That is incredibly strongly implied even if its not 110% explicit, to the point of absurdity.
It's further strengthened by the numerous links and quotes to the reason for not being able to upgrade to certain things being that they're made of a unique material.
Even FURTHER, you cannot simply declare shatterspike to be made of adamantine any more than you can declare a 15 gp sword to be adamantine. Combine that with the fact that price is an inherent part of the item, and there's no way to get an adamantine shatterspike without altering the price, which.. TADA... is altering the item. Which is not allowed.
The options are not "100 % quote against exactly what you're asking " (which is impossible, because you never ask what you're asking directly) and you can absolutely do something. The evidence against this is beyond overwhelming. Epistemic nihilism is not an argument for something.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The 15gp longsword could be steel, but it could also be a different metal (or an alloy). The Sunder rules reflect metal weapons and wooden weapons, not steel weapons or oak weapons
If an item is metal and no named material, it’s steel.
If it’s leather and no names material it’s cows.You can’t make a “+1 long sword” adamantine and pay the difference because you have no rule to allow that.
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So to kind of side tangent for a second, where does it say you can change the size of named items? I don't disagree that it makes sense that you should be able to, but last I knew it didn't say anywhere.
I ask because if it can be done, the reason why it can be done could clear things up.
If it can be done because there are already existing rules on resizing, then any named gear could be made into "armor for unusual creatures because that also has a rule for it.
Also who can buy what size gear? Can my gnome buy a small holy avenger? Can my titan fighter buy a large one? Can a pixie get a tiny one?
The rules on this matters and I found the dismissal of some is the OP's questions extremely rude and unnecessary.