The Whisper Out of Time (GM Reference)


Strange Aeons

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The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.

This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 4 of the Strange Aeons Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:


So the PCs are affected by the taint of Xhamen-Dor too? Since they know about him, and that's how the taint spreads, they are infected, right?

That's going to be so much fun to use to mess with my players.


I received my shipping notification email, but the pdf isn't in my downloads.
Anyone else having this issue?


Keep looking down, it's in a section of the downloads called Taldor. Or just filter downloads by most recently added.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Huh. So that's what was done for Taldor.


I think I'm going to try and tie the two scholars that join the players on the boat to the mysterium.


Captain Yesterday Smurf wrote:
Keep looking down, it's in a section of the downloads called Taldor. Or just filter downloads by most recently added.

Thanks. That's weird, but yep - there it is.


Cat Whisperer wrote:
Captain Yesterday Smurf wrote:
Keep looking down, it's in a section of the downloads called Taldor. Or just filter downloads by most recently added.
Thanks. That's weird, but yep - there it is.

It was an accident i believe, they have their top tooth fairy on the case to get fixed up. :-)


Reading this all I can think is: it reaches out it reaches out it reaches out it reaches out one hundred and thirteen times a second, nothing answers and it reaches out...


I have a lot of ideas to add to the mysterium -- which I am extremely excited to run. If I had to nitpick, though, the last third of the adventure seems like a departure from the adventure's tone and style. Raiding a Gnoll Slaver fort is something I'd expect out of a more traditional AP.


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1) How the heck does one pronounce "Miacknian"?

2) I'm pretty sure Mun's homunculus Akie has the wrong hit points. 118 is over the maximum, even, for 9d10+20. The average of that range would be 69.


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Spatula wrote:
1) How the heck does one pronounce "Miacknian"?

My hunch is that it is "me - ack - knee - an", but I could be terribly wrong.

"Akie" seems to suggest that you should get an "ack" sound somewhere in there though.

Contributor

Spatula wrote:

1) How the heck does one pronounce "Miacknian"?

2) I'm pretty sure Mun's homunculus Akie has the wrong hit points. 118 is over the maximum, even, for 9d10+20. The average of that range would be 69.

Heh heh

Mee-ak-nee-an.

Or, however you like it.

Hmm, need to check that HP total...will be back.


I feel like I'm missing something with Kisetz. Why does she hate the party SO MUCH that she directly betrays her master, an act that it specifically calls out she's horrified of doing?

She has to live a very busy and tiresome life if she puts this much effort into a grudge against every single person in Okeno who's ever looked at her funny.

Contributor

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Okay so I've checked the first draft of Miacknian and in that he was a clonemaster alchemist so I'm afraid I'll have to ask the lovely Paizo folk to answer that one.

In terms of Kisetz, I've only quickly read the published adventure but in terms of the draft:

Spoiler:
The original Kisetz (then referred to as the Ketz) was intended to be very close at one time to the PCs - ideally a lover - and her first encounter was to simply rave at the object of her scorn. I've attached the original sidebar for her in case anyone wants to run it that way but obviously these things get chopped and changed for good reason during development.

The Past Catches Up…
The Ketz is an old, old friend of the PCs, and of one in particular. At least she was a friend—until in her eyes one PC betrayed her, breaking her hardened heart in the process. These events happened long ago, of course, before the PC’s memories of their lives. The question is, how?
Of all betrayals, love is the easiest to explain; the Ketz loved the PC, who found out what she was like—her crazy temper, her unpredictability—and jilted her. She was broken by her unrequited love; rejection hounded her throughout her life, and she fell into bad company and bad ways—because of the PC. Be careful with who you pick if you use the love angle; it must be appropriate for the PC in question to fall for such a wild woman.

If the love angle feels wrong, consider the close as kin angle; the PC and the Ketz were inseparable; ready to take on the world, but one does not choose one’s kin, the PC left on a mission (whether he wanted to or not) and left Ketz abandoned in a cell; the hands of their worst enemies of something similar.

The trickiest but most rewarding angle is also to use Ketz as a way of explaining a PC (or maybe several PC’s) background traits. This method requires the most work, but is the most rewarding for your players.
Whatever the case, start with the PC knowing nothing about her, but slowly consider explanatory memories appearing in dreams. Unless you deem otherwise, the relationship is irretrievably broken but grant the Ketz a final line or two that makes the PC think that if only the past had changed, the future could have been much brighter. The Ketz also knows Asfar, having been sold by her and being her slave when the PCs were. The PCs may deduce that and take action, but she never gives the information freely.

Huzzah!


Sometimes people don't like you just because. Or we don't like someone else, with some self-serving justification for the irrational hatred. Maybe a PC reminds her of someone who betrayed her. Maybe she has a habit of fixating on people whom she imagines have wronged her; a borderline personality disorder combined with her alignment and ability to hurt or kill most folks would be a bad combination.

But if the PCs came from Okeno via Biting Lash, maybe she had some run-in with her target back in the pre-Lowls days.


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Richard Pett wrote:


In terms of Kisetz, I've only quickly read the published adventure but in terms of the draft: ** spoiler omitted **...

Ah, that makes MUCH more sense. In the final publish that sidebar appears to be omitted entirely, and she effectively declares war on the PCs for no reason at all.

@Spatula The party was sold to Lowls by Weirlai, I thought. I don't believe they've been to Okeno before, but admittedly I've only given the AP one read through.

Paizo Employee Developer

Spatula wrote:
2) I'm pretty sure Mun's homunculus Akie has the wrong hit points. 118 is over the maximum, even, for 9d10+20. The average of that range would be 69.

I have no idea how that error slipped in there, but unless I'm overlooking something drastic, you're completely right that Akie's hit points should be 69. (Though in that encounter, having more hit points won't hurt, to be honest.)

Paizo Employee Developer

Squiiddish wrote:
Richard Pett wrote:


In terms of Kisetz, I've only quickly read the published adventure but in terms of the draft: ** spoiler omitted **...

Ah, that makes MUCH more sense. In the final publish that sidebar appears to be omitted entirely, and she effectively declares war on the PCs for no reason at all.

This is a result of a few things. The story shifted a slight bit by the time that I got to developing Rich's adventure, and frankly I was a bit timid about assuming so much of the PCs' past after hearing grumbles from the fans when they heard more about the start of the Adventure Path. I didn't want to force a particular backstory on anyone, but I can see from my hesitation that I scraped too much off in development about Kisetz's motivations.

Squiiddish wrote:
@Spatula The party was sold to Lowls by Weirlai, I thought. I don't believe they've been to Okeno before, but admittedly I've only given the AP one read through.

One of the suggested ways that the PCs could have ended up with Lowls is being sold by Weiralai who got them from Biting Lash. I went ahead and had that illustrated in the foreword, so depending on what way an individual PC came to work for or be in service of Lowls they could have easily been in Okeno at some point in the recent past.


What about all the books in the Soul of the Mysterium? It's specifically stated that there are a number of other books there, sitting on podiums or hanging from the ceiling on chains. The moment the PCs finish that last combat, they'll want to start looting, or at least rummaging. But we're not given a single word about what those books might be, or how to deal with this.

This seems sort of a large omission.

Doug M.


Thinking about it: the exscinder could have simply used his Censor ability to wipe out all the books, leaving nothing but blank pages. That's fair under RAW, and even makes in-game sense. But then, shouldn't the adventure tell us this?

Doug M.


More generally, what is the point of the final encounter in the Soul? The PCs don't gain any treasure from it, other than a Large-sized +3 flaming longsword that they can't easily use. The only information they gain is that Lowls has grabbed the Necronomicon and teleported away, and it's really hard to believe that they don't know this by now.

Elder Thyrr knows that Lowls and Mun were after the Necronomicon, and she discusses this with the PCs before they even enter the Mysterium. (Page 24: "If she believes the PCs are truly there to find Lowls and Mun, and if they promise to return the Necronomicon if they find it, she lets them know some of the things they can expect once they enter the library.") From the moment they set foot in the Mysterium, they can reasonably assume that Lowls reached the book. The only remaining question is whether he's still inside, and whether they'll catch him and get the book back. So the only thing they gain from the fight in the Soul is the knowledge that [sad trombone] no, he got away. And this is information they could get any number of other ways, from simple divination spells to simple deduction.

The whole final encounter just seems like a huge letdown. You unlock the dangerous trap, you enter the final room, you fight a boss monster, and... the bad guy is long gone, taking the McGuffin and leaving nothing behind. Treasure? Nope. Astonishing revelations? Mission-critical information? Mmm... nope. Okay, what about all these cool books? You got nothin'. Oh hey RING RING your Yithian friend is skyping you with another breadcrumb. Time to get back on the plot train! The bad guy scarpered, but maybe you can still catch him!

(Kaklatath obviously knows that Lowls got the book and teleported away; at the end, he projects an image of exactly those events into the PC's minds. So why doesn't he save the PCs a huge amount of trouble and just project it into their minds before they even enter the Mysterium? "Don't bother, kids -- your jerkass ex-boss has already grabbed the bad book and moved on. Here's my best guess as to where he is now." Yes, Kaklatath is a profoundly alien creature, but the PCs are the only ones who can save him. Why place them at unnecessary risk?)

Is it just me? Has anyone played through this yet; and if so, how'd it play out?

Doug M.


Okay, while I'm here: the whole encounter with the Hyena Princess is likely to go pear-shaped fast if the DM doesn't give her some additional guards and minions. She's an Ari 1/Bard 9, which means that if a party of 12th level PCs wants some information from her, they can probably get it. "Oh, you could undertake this side quest for me -- " "Well, we could do that. Or, you could just [DC 23 Dominate] tell us where to find Biting Lash."

This might lead to the PCs fighting the Princess and her two minions, but what of it? They're almost certainly going to end up fighting the minions anyway. Might as well do it now, before the two have a chance to run off and warn Biting Lash. But if the PCs don't want a confrontation, heck, a DC 19 or 20 Detect Thoughts will probably work about as well. Really, at this level there are just all sorts of things PCs could try -- a bardic performance with Suggestion, an Intimidate check with a sky-high modifier, an invisible imp familiar with wands, you name it. And the Princess is, after all, a gnoll slaver, so it's not like the PCs need feel compelled to play nice.

Doug M.


I agree with what you're saying about the mysterium. It's seems like an exciting dungeon and final fight but I can't imagine that any group would be happy with the way it ends. It's not like they're gonna say "Well, we didn't get the Necronimicon, but we did get the most important magical artifact of all -- friendship :)))". I suppose you could just include Lowls and make it a chase of sorts to keep things more exciting but he'll just end up teleporting away at the end and the "villain exit stage left" thing isn't much better. I may just make Muns the person that tells them that Lowls is heading to Biting Lash -- skipping some of the info gathering later but at least giving them more of a reward at the end of that section.

Also, I think the actual reason the story provides that the pc's would want to kill the exscinder is because it helps out the Mysterium and they'll get rewarded for it. Although the reward of "one week at the all-you-can-research buffet" could be enticing for some of the more scholarly characters in the party, the undying hatred my players currently have for Lowls means they will be reluctant to give him a week's lead in the chase -- especially with the yithian's life on the line and the apocalyptic fallout if Lowls completes his plans.

Of course, you could always make the Mysterium seem inescapable once they are in it (via ever-growing swarms of eldritch horrors and such). Then they HAVE to take out the keeper to escape. However, that will likely mean including a dimensional lock on the whole building so that they can't just teleport out after they figure out that Lowls took the Necronimicon.


While fiddling around with alternate builds for Biting Lash, I realized that technically she's CR 14, not 12. Flind (CR 3) + Ranger 11 = 14. You'd only get 12 if you considered the Ranger class to not be a "key" class for flinds, which it certainly seems like it should be (it is for gnolls, after all, and flinds are just advanced gnolls with +2 HD).

Not that it makes a huge difference, given the general weakness of high-level non-caster NPCs.


I suppose the theory is that the PCs will want to explore down into the bowels of the library to retrieve the Elder's body, so he can be resurrected and they can get a reward. Then once they enter the Cipher Obscura level, they're trapped until they clear the place out (as noted in the description for B14).


Good eye! I did not notice that they got trapped in


But Mun is above that level, and presumably they'd learn from his rantings that Lowls has already skedaddled. So it's up to the party how badly they want to fix things in the library, and they could very well skip the lower portions.

Similarly, a lot of the third part will probably get passed over as well. There's no need for a 12th level party to fight their way through a fortress from the ground floor when their target is lounging around on the roof, in plain view.


The last section just looks like a fun way for the spellcasters to flex their muscles. Teleport, fly, magic jar, even invisibility just cast over and over.


There's basically nothing in the last section that should give a 12th level party any problems, with the sole exception of the basilisks -- one bad save there, and a party member goes down hard, and having six (!) in a room makes a bad save a real possibility. But that's it. Everything else is gnolls and animals. There aren't even any interesting tactical situations -- it's a straight up crawl from the ground floor to the roof.

Also, while a module inevitably must have a certain number of NPCs and monsters that fight to the death, Biting Lash's behavior makes no sense. If the PCs have marched their way through her fortress, killing everything in their path? "These strangers are obviously incredibly powerful and dangerous, so I should... fly into a rage and attack them, fighting until I am killed!" This is especially silly given that all the PCs want is information. "Oh, is that what you want? Sure, here's this map I drew. That'll be 500 gold. If you're willing to pay for the guards and slaves you killed, I'll tell you everything I know about your friend Mr. Lowls." An evil NPC who is arrogant and has a hair-trigger temper is bog-standard. But an evil NPC who is suicidally aggressive for no reason when there may be an obvious win-win that lets her keep her life and her empire? Umm.

Doug M.


As Spatula and Puma have correctly noted, a high level party can simply ignore the whole tower. At this level, spamming Fly and Invisible on the whole party is not only easy, it's almost SOP. Weirder stuff like Magic Jarring a gnoll guard is also on the table. Or just send the party's rogue or monk invisibly up the wall, to drop poison in Biting Lash's snack dish or quietly search the place while she's distracted.

(Or for that matter, the PCs could just *knock on the door and ask politely*. "Hi, we're trying to track down this guy. We'll give you 500 gp if you tell us where he is." "Wait, you've found my secret lair?" "Um, you have like all these guards and slaves, and we found out about it from almost the first person we met, and also I notice you have these two friends of hers standing right next to you, obviously they know too... how secret is it supposed to be?")

But what of Kaklatath? Well, presumably Kaklatath will let the PCs know where she is. Then they can either (1) sneak in and get her out -- dead easy, there's nothing in the whole place that has a Perception score that's going to spot their invisible rogue or monk; or, (2) just buy her. "Oh, and you have an old slave, looks like this. She's my mother's cousin's best friend, sentimental value. We'll give you 500 gold for her."

On the whole, this last part feels like it was dropped in from a different, lower-level module. Tower full of gnoll slavers with a prisoner you must rescue in the middle somewhere, evil boss gnoll at the top? That would be an absolutely great setup for PCs between 5th and 8th level. For 12th level PCs, not so much.

Doug M.


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Okay, not to overthink it, but...

Quote:

If the PCs let Biting Lash know that Njano was the

one who told them how to find her, the gnoll slaver
goes into a fit of rage and immediately lashes out at
one of the PCs. She hopes to kill agents of her greatest
rival and send their broken bodies back to the Hyena
Princess as a lesson to not meddle with her affairs.

But but Kisetz and Hakoor are standing RIGHT THERE. They have ALREADY told Biting Lash that Njano sent the PCs. That is information that Biting Lash ALREADY HAS.

There's actually a super easy fix to this. "Kisetz and Hakoor run to Biting Lash, and warn her that the PCs are actually a group of assassins sent by Njano. They'll pretend to be interested in this Lowls person, but that's a pretext -- their true purpose is to destroy Biting Lash's operation and, if possible, kill her." Bam, done. Bonus: now we have an in-game explanation for Biting Lash's suicidal violence.

But as written, it doesn't make sense.

Doug M.


The basilisks remind me of old-school gygaxian dungeon stuff. "Here's a cage with a cover over it. Do you dare check inside?" They have to look at the clues to figure out the nature of whatever's under there (or just meta game like the dirty cheaters they are). Otherwise, they get petrified for their foolish curiosity. -evil GM laugh-


Spastic Puma wrote:
The basilisks remind me of old-school gygaxian dungeon stuff. "Here's a cage with a cover over it. Do you dare check inside?" They have to look at the clues to figure out the nature of whatever's under there (or just meta game like the dirty cheaters they are). Otherwise, they get petrified for their foolish curiosity. -evil GM laugh-

Yeah, that bit is kind of a stupidity test. There's no reason whatsoever to mess with the cages. The PCs should want only two things here -- Kaklatath and information about Lowls -- and poking around the strange cages is obviously not going to help gain either of those. So I guess I'm okay with this encounter; it's avoidable, and if the PCs insist on messing with it, they take their chances.

That said, the point remains: the whole tower below the roof is very avoidable. And this is a subset of a larger problem: large chunks of this module either could be avoided, or ought to be.

Doug M.


DM_DM wrote:
Spastic Puma wrote:
The basilisks remind me of old-school gygaxian dungeon stuff. "Here's a cage with a cover over it. Do you dare check inside?" They have to look at the clues to figure out the nature of whatever's under there (or just meta game like the dirty cheaters they are). Otherwise, they get petrified for their foolish curiosity. -evil GM laugh-
Yeah, that bit is kind of a stupidity test. There's no reason whatsoever to mess with the cages. The PCs should want only two things here -- Kaklatath and information about Lowls -- and poking around the strange cages is obviously not going to help gain either of those.

"Where could these info be hidden?"

"Maybe that covered cage over there?"
"There might be a monster in there."
"Guarding the info we need."


KM WolfMaw wrote:
DM_DM wrote:
Spastic Puma wrote:
The basilisks remind me of old-school gygaxian dungeon stuff. "Here's a cage with a cover over it. Do you dare check inside?" They have to look at the clues to figure out the nature of whatever's under there (or just meta game like the dirty cheaters they are). Otherwise, they get petrified for their foolish curiosity. -evil GM laugh-
Yeah, that bit is kind of a stupidity test. There's no reason whatsoever to mess with the cages. The PCs should want only two things here -- Kaklatath and information about Lowls -- and poking around the strange cages is obviously not going to help gain either of those.

"Where could these info be hidden?"

"Maybe that covered cage over there?"
"There might be a monster in there."
"Guarding the info we need."

Haha, the PC's never do what you expect. I remember once in Savage Tide they backtracked through 3 different planes to find some item they already had. I didn't realize it until about 45 mins of gametime went by.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Unless I am misreading, Miacknian's tactics say that if things start to go badly, he drinks his extract of greater invisibility. However, he doesn't actually HAVE that extract. He has Freedom of Movement. I suppose it makes the most sense to swap out FoM for GI.


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Had my first session with this book last night. I wasn't expecting mun's lab to be very exciting but the PC's split up and things got scary real quick. By the way, Twain is a terror. She managed to get nearly every buff off and was nearly unkillable as a result. Without Echolocation and a few well placed glitter dusts to stop her greater invis, the fight would have gone sour but they pulled through.

I also got to use the Dragged To Your Doom trap to its full effectiveness. I usually think traps aren't very interesting. (Oh, you didn't check the door? Okay roll a save and take 4d6 acid damage that you're just going to heal away with your CLW wand). However as soon as the PC realized what was happening with this trap, there was genuine terror in the air. THATS what I call an excellently designed trap.

One more thing: The Cytillipede's aoe dc 22 save or stunned (1d4 rounds) is absolutely brutal. Combine that with its dc 20 poison bite that dazes and you have one nasty critter. CR 6 seems a little low.

Paizo Employee Developer

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Spastic Puma wrote:
...I also got to use the Dragged To Your Doom trap to its full effectiveness. ...

Oh good! I was hoping that this would be an effective trap. When I saw it in Rich's turnover I was pretty excited.


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OK, there are some really nice creepy touches in this adventure. But there's also a lot more errata and other problems than in the previous ones in the path. I'll stick to Part 2 for this post:

1. Elder Lythiin is referred to as a woman on page 27 ("When Elder Lythiin subsequently came down here with her own guards") despite being described everywhere else as male.

2. The arrangement with Elder Thyrr to enter the library doesn't mention anything about looting or the books, and the adventure doesn't provide value for any of the library's textual content with the strange exception of the misfiled book in B23. (So don't steal from the library unless a book has been mis-shelved?) This seems especially problematic if the PCs break into the library without talking to Thyrr. Worse, what happens if the PCs decide to read or take some of the other books in the Soul?

3. Thyrr tells the PCs about the enchanted mirror and the Hounds. She doesn't ask them not to smash the mirror. I find it very hard to tell, but it looks to me like the adventure expects that the PCs will find and destroy it but also suggests the possibility that they won't. But if they don't, quite aside from the problems of giving the PCs 14,400 XP per group of Hounds (which if a GM tracks XP could easily get out of hand), there's multiple spots in the adventure where the Hound interference will be crazy: 10 minutes to clear rubble in B13 = 5+ Hound attacks. B25 will also be quite dangerous. Either the Hounds should "restock" a limited number of times, or they should reappear less frequently. (It would also help if the pack emerging from the mirror were "new" Hounds instead of the same old pack, as "new" Hounds couldn't Discern Location to find the PCs instantly.)

4. The Hounds are problematic in other ways, too. It's not unreasonable that they've avoided attacking other Mythos creatures (although given how the Mythos works, it's still a bit odd). But what about the guards at B15? Mun at B16? Why wouldn't the Hounds tear apart the Axiomites in B22 or the Aerial Servants in B23? I suppose they might not recognize the Clockwork Mages as targets in B24, and I assume they don't enter the Soul because it's extradimensional and Dimensionally Locked.

5. It's a little odd that the exits from the shafts down aren't indicated on the map, unless that single dotted square near B17 is supposed to be the shaft exit, in which case, why isn't there a similar square at the crossroads on Level 2 or on Level 4? And if the dotted square near B17 isn't the shaft exit, what is it?

6. Most of the haunts can only be destroyed if books are burnt. One imagines that the Stewards frown on such behavior, but unless Thyrr (see 2) specifically forbids taking or destroying books, how would the Stewards respond upon discovering that the PCs helpfully "cured" the Haunt problem by destroying large parts of the library's collection?

7. The B10 Dread Wraith description suggests that the wraith "sticks to the two eastern sections of bedrock," which is the only explanation for why it hasn't attacked Mun or the guards, much less the Mythos creatures. Would it stick to that after the PCs arrive?

8. The adventure implies without spelling out that the 6 guards in B15, when killed, will each produce a Proto-Shoggoth in 2d6 hours. If the PCs clear the Mysterium and leave, that will be a nasty surprise later on for the Stewards. But if they rest while in the Mysterium, that adds six CR 11 monsters to the level. Aside from again messing with expected XP gains, there's a small but non-zero chance that these six Proto-Shoggoths will be able to merge, and with lucky merge rolls, a smaller but still non-zero chance of producing a CR 19 Shoggoth. That seems like an issue, as well as a potential nasty surprise if the PCs clear the place rapidly and then try to cash in on their week's research.

9. B14 as-written is a mess. "Each round, randomly choose a target in the room (including the spawn of Yog-Sothoth) as a target for one of these falling stones." Shouldn't there be a sentence explaining that the rockfall stops once the Spawn (which is actively damaging the room) has been killed? Otherwise, not only is there evidently an infinite number of rocks that fall without the whole room actually caving in, but clearing the rubble from the gate (10 minutes of work) triggers 100 DC 15 Reflex saves!

10. B14 also traps the PCs on levels 3 & 4, although teleport is possible since the Dimensional Lock only affects the Soul itself. Do the Stewards come down to rescue them once the wards are disabled? Note also that if the mirror at B2 isn't smashed, resting is extremely difficult once the PCs get to B17.

11. If the PCs manage to trick Mun into telling what he knows, they would seem to have no need to continue with part 3 as they can go straight to the Parchlands. (For that matter, what if they disable and capture Mun, or use Speak with Dead on him? I guess all that extra Hound XP may be necessary after all!) This is a huge problem as they need to find Kaklatath; presumably it has to get more direct in its Whispers to get the PCs to come after it?

12. If the PCs do get to B26--and in theory there's no reason for them to do so--the adventure doesn't explain how they can get out again! Is there a shaft they can climb out? Because the Dimensional Lock prevents other forms of exit.

13. Some of the details of Lowls' last trip to steal the Necronomicon are unclear. Did he bribe Lythiin to tell him how to open the Key of the Soul? (I assume Lythiin would do that as he tells the PCs despite not knowing who they are and that information being the deepest secret he can keep.) Once in the Soul, Lowls broke the chain, triggering the wards. Presumably the Keeper showed up then (instead of being on constant guard, which would in theory have allowed it to wipe the Necronomicon's pages clean though in practice that power wouldn't work on an artifact) and got corrupted, but Lowls decided to bail anyway. The adventure specifies that he Teleports away. But surely the Dimensional Lock would have been triggered with the rest of the wards? If it got warped, why is it normal now? Did he use the unspecified method of exiting the Soul and then teleport, and if so, why didn't the Keeper use that method as well to exit?


Narsham wrote:
5. It's a little odd that the exits from the shafts down aren't indicated on the map, unless that single dotted square near B17 is supposed to be the shaft exit, in which case, why isn't there a similar square at the crossroads on Level 2 or on Level 4? And if the dotted square near B17 isn't the shaft exit, what is it?

It's the space from the guards and wards spell that has a suggestion tied to it, mention in the paragraph above B17. Sadly, its suggestion to leave is not very effective, as once the PCs descend to level 3 they can't go back up again, according to B14.

Narsham wrote:
7. The B10 Dread Wraith description suggests that the wraith "sticks to the two eastern sections of bedrock," which is the only explanation for why it hasn't attacked Mun or the guards, much less the Mythos creatures. Would it stick to that after the PCs arrive?

There's nothing there to say it would leave its area. The impression I got was that the dead custodian is sticking near the area it spawned.

Narsham wrote:
8. The adventure implies without spelling out that the 6 guards in B15, when killed, will each produce a Proto-Shoggoth in 2d6 hours.

Huh, good catch. The PCs better burn those bodies!

Narsham wrote:
9. B14 as-written is a mess. "Each round, randomly choose a target in the room (including the spawn of Yog-Sothoth) as a target for one of these falling stones." Shouldn't there be a sentence explaining that the rockfall stops once the Spawn (which is actively damaging the room) has been killed? Otherwise, not only is there evidently an infinite number of rocks that fall without the whole room actually caving in, but clearing the rubble from the gate (10 minutes of work) triggers 100 DC 15 Reflex saves!

The text seems to indicate the chamber itself is falling apart because of already-caused damage, but it does seem like maybe the rocks should stop falling once the spawn is dealt with. Otherwise it gets a little crazy, as you note. And considering that stones large enough to cause 3d6 damage are falling every 6 seconds, and so many are falling that at least one person will have to dodge no matter where they are, the room should probably collapse, or be buried, in short order if that keeps up.

Narsham wrote:
12. If the PCs do get to B26--and in theory there's no reason for them to do so--the adventure doesn't explain how they can get out again! Is there a shaft they can climb out? Because the Dimensional Lock prevents other forms of exit.

On page 24, Thyrr tells the PCs that there's an angel head with no eyes in the Soul that can be used to reset the wards. That is presumably the PCs' goal in getting into the Soul, although curiously it's not mentioned in B26's description. Once the wards are reset, they can presumably teleport out and collect their reward.


Narsham wrote:
OK, there are some really nice creepy touches in this adventure. But there's also a lot more errata and other problems than in the previous ones in the path.

So it's not just me. Oh good.

Quote:
11. If the PCs manage to trick Mun into telling what he knows, they would seem to have no need to continue with part 3 as they can go straight to the Parchlands. (For that matter, what if they disable and capture Mun, or use Speak with Dead on him? I guess all that extra Hound XP may be necessary after all!)

This goes to my biggest problem with this adventure. It's a "breadcrumb" type adventure: the PCs go through a sub-adventure, and at the end of each they get a breadcrumb that leads them to the next one. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that -- this is a perfectly valid way to structure a module.

However: by the fourth module in an AP, the PCs are just getting too high level for this. There are just too many ways for them to short-circuit past large chunks of the story if they really put their minds to it. You mentioned Speak With Dead; that's just one of the many, many resources that 11th-12th level PCs can bring to bear on a problem.

I said upthread that the fortress seemed like a fun, challenging adventure for 5th to 8th level PCs, but was unlikely to present a challenge for 12th level PCs. In a way, the whole module is like that. It's not that it won't present a challenge -- many individual encounters are quite deadly. But *as a whole*, it feels like a lower level module that's been reskinned, not entirely successfully.

Doug M.


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Narsham wrote:
13. Some of the details of Lowls' last trip to steal the Necronomicon are unclear. Did he bribe Lythiin to tell him how to open the Key of the Soul? (I assume Lythiin would do that as he tells the PCs despite not knowing who they are and that information being the deepest secret he can keep.) Once in the Soul, Lowls broke the chain, triggering the wards. Presumably the Keeper showed up then (instead of being on constant guard, which would in theory have allowed it to wipe the Necronomicon's pages clean though in practice that power wouldn't work on an artifact) and got corrupted, but Lowls decided to bail anyway. The adventure specifies that he Teleports away. But surely the Dimensional Lock would have been triggered with the rest of the wards? If it got warped, why is it normal now? Did he use the unspecified method of exiting the Soul and then teleport, and if so, why didn't the Keeper use that method as well to exit?

My interpretation is that Lowls researched the Necronomicon over several days while the Keeper watched him and detected his thoughts. This allowed Xhamen-Dor to subtly corrupt the archon and, through him, the rest of the Mysterium's wards. The dimensional lock must have been corrupted to allow whoever Xhamen-Dor chooses through. Xhamen-Dor can't 100% control the Keeper yet so he keeps him trapped there to guard against the wards being reset.

As for the adventure structure, I'm thinking that the PCs investigate the lab to figure out where the Necronomicon is located. (I've removed that info from the previous books). When they then investigate the Mysterium they lose Lowls's trail but instead are able to receive clearer transmissions from Kaklatath since they are in a spot infected by Xhamen-Dor. This allows her to guide them to Okenko to rescue her and help them find Neruzavin. I'm strongly de-emphasizing the connection between Lowls and Biting Lash because it's unnecessary and coincidental. How's that sound?


I'm probably gonna steal that to smooth over the plot a bit better.


Spatula wrote:
It's the space from the guards and wards spell that has a suggestion tied to it, mention in the paragraph above B17. Sadly, its suggestion to leave is not very effective, as once the PCs descend to level 3 they can't go back up again, according to B14.

Ah, helpful. If the suggestion is located right at the exit of the way down, it's still reasonable as anyone descending has 1 minute to get back out again. But it'd have to be positioned where it's basically unavoidable.

Spatula wrote:
On page 24, Thyrr tells the PCs that there's an angel head with no eyes in the Soul that can be used to reset the wards. That is presumably the PCs' goal in getting into the Soul, although curiously it's not mentioned in B26's description. Once the wards are reset, they can presumably teleport out and collect their reward.

That's because the angel head in question isn't IN the Soul, but in B25 (see second paragraph after the box text on pg 35).


Here's the Part 3 follow-up. (Part 1 seems pretty good and Grolick already caught the missing greater invisibility spell in Mun's stats.)

14. Kisetz and Hakoor, if they stay together, move at a speed of 20 ft. If the PCs all move at 30 ft or faster, they can simply outrun the two should they choose. Hakoor's Haste spell is unlikely to make a difference. (I'd suggest replacing his Slow or his Dispel Magic with Fly, though that's only a partial solution. Or just let the PCs get away.)

15. Nikta's plan in Meeting the Kidnapper (pg 43) won't work. If she sees the princess, she demands the Hyena Princess come with her "using dimension door to reach the tannery with her." Except that her dimension door doesn't allow her to take other people along. The logistics of telling the Hyena Princess to go to the tannery on foot would seem to make that a terrible plan; surely, Nikta would have a building or alley nearby to take the princess to and attempt to charm her. Sadly, making this section make sense almost certainly guarantees that meeting the kidnapper fails the side quest. I'd almost prefer to cut this section and have the Whispers lead the PCs to Blossoming Thorn, expecting extra Hound XP to make up for any deficit, though that short-circuits the Kisetz/Hakoor stuff.

16. C6: The Tannery Guards should have 61 hp, not 16 hp.

17. C7: aside from wanting to make the quest achievable, why does Nikta fight first instead of Dim Dooring to her hostage and threatening to tear him apart? Is she using her Int 12 instead of her Wis 18?

18. The Great Dome section anticipates PC use of Flight, so it's unfortunate that the same can't be said for Blossoming Thorn, which has a lovely rooftop garden the PCs can just fly right into, bypassing all the fortress defenses. Given that teleporting in is mentioned but that the Gnoll defenders have no specific plan against that, either, I suppose it's not a huge flaw, but the map art of the roof level shows what appear to be four ballista neither mentioned in the description nor specifically manned. The 6 personal guards wouldn't be enough to fire all four effectively.

19. The map of Blossoming Thorn has a solid wall between D4 and D5 where an opening should exist between the cage wall and the wall shared with D3.

20. The description of D13 should include a notation of (CR 6) and an indicator that 2 Gnoll Guards occupy the room.

21. At the end of the adventure, the PCs are 13th level. That means they could potentially have the Greater Teleport spell. With Greater Teleport and the information available to them, they could teleport straight to Neruzavin, which, given that Lowls is only a few days ahead of them, allows them to get there first. Will Adventure 5 either take this into account or explain why it won't work? (Even if they can't teleport straight to Neruzavin, surely there's some kind of oasis along the way they could teleport to in order to either ambush Lowls or get a big head-start.)

22. Given the timeline clarification in Concluding the Adventure, it's clear the PCs were probably several days behind when they enter the Mysterium. So if you're like me, add rations and barrels of water to the trapped guards and to Mun to account for their surviving several days cut off from the outside world. Or if you want to be really clever about it, include parts of several additional people in both encounter areas which appear to have been eaten by human teeth.

Note that there's an option in the final section of the adventure for the GM to underline that something which should be squicky (Gnoll slavers misusing their slaves) instead seems downright homey when compared to the horrors of other places in the campaign. If Biting Lash is ultimately responsible for enslaving one or more of the PCs, there's an opportunity to use that when they meet again, too.


Noticed a small mistake while prepping for tonight. The arcane eruption haunt's fourth blast should be lightning damage, not another fire blast. This would match the haunt's warning signs more appropriately.


Error on page 34.

Quote:
The axiomites work in unison. On the first round of combat, one of the axiomites casts haste on all four of them, while another blasts the PCs with lightning bolt. The third casts true strike on the fourth, while the fourth outsider closes with the PCs in melee combat.

True Strike is a personal spell, it can't be cast on others.

Paizo Employee Developer

Rules Police wrote:
Error on page 34.
Quote:
The axiomites work in unison. On the first round of combat, one of the axiomites casts haste on all four of them, while another blasts the PCs with lightning bolt. The third casts true strike on the fourth, while the fourth outsider closes with the PCs in melee combat.
True Strike is a personal spell, it can't be cast on others.

Weird. Something got jumbled there. That "on the fourth" shouldn't be there. The intention was that one would attack quickly to give the other the time to benefit from true strike (and then possibly cast it on itself the following round, if favorable.)


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Fair enough, citizen, I'm going to let you off with a warning this time.

(Love the AP!)

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