Petition: Ban "Channel the Gift"


Pathfinder Society

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Grand Lodge ***

It's not entirely clear to me if that includes "Use Activated" items, specifically potions and oils. It seems weird that a monkey can't drink a potion.

Scarab Sages **

Majuba wrote:
Thanks Lorewalker!

No problem. The familiar rules are something I specialize in.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
It's not entirely clear to me if that includes "Use Activated" items, specifically potions and oils. It seems weird that a monkey can't drink a potion.

I brought this up earlier in the thread... and other threads too. RAW is they can't... but I can't imagine a single GM adjudicating it that way. A problem that is already corrected at every table is not a problem as far as most people on these boards tend to see it.

Though, I'm the type who wants to see the rule corrected(or enforced despite its silliness) anyway. >.>

Sovereign Court *****

Introducing Bongo!, the ape masseur. Get your magical oils applied by the very best that nature has to offer!

Bongo will be very happy to apply that special oil of channel the gift for you!

Scarab Sages **

Gobbyyy wrote:

Introducing Bongo!, the ape masseur. Get your magical oils applied by the very best that nature has to offer!

Bongo will be very happy to apply that special oil of channel the gift for you!

I'll have my people call your people about a Vanish Wand Inc. and Bongo Mansseur LLC. partnership

Sovereign Court *****

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Lorewalker wrote:
I'll have my people call your people about a Vanish Wand Inc. and Bongo Mansseur LLC. partnership

So sorry!, Bongo not allowed to use magic wands on clients.

Scarab Sages

Jared Thaler wrote:

I would like to point out that familiars are meant to be a fairly significant power boost to a character, and improved familiars even more so.

It takes roughly the same number of feats to get a familiar as to get an animal companion, and another feat beyond that to get an improved one. And a lot of the cheaper ways to get familiars don't get ones that can be upgraded to improved.

Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.

****

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:

I would like to point out that familiars are meant to be a fairly significant power boost to a character, and improved familiars even more so.

It takes roughly the same number of feats to get a familiar as to get an animal companion, and another feat beyond that to get an improved one. And a lot of the cheaper ways to get familiars don't get ones that can be upgraded to improved.

Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.

Funny you should say that in this thread. If you have a wand as your bond, it's half price to get Channel the Gift on it. :-p

The Exchange ***** ⦵⦵

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.

My arcane-bonded Emergency Force Sphere deflects your comment.

Scarab Sages

Serisan wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:

I would like to point out that familiars are meant to be a fairly significant power boost to a character, and improved familiars even more so.

It takes roughly the same number of feats to get a familiar as to get an animal companion, and another feat beyond that to get an improved one. And a lot of the cheaper ways to get familiars don't get ones that can be upgraded to improved.

Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.
Funny you should say that in this thread. If you have a wand as your bond, it's half price to get Channel the Gift on it. :-p

Why is it half price? Was looking into this earlier for another reason, I don't think arcane bonded wands result in cheaper or better wands in any respect.

Besides, the spell generated via the bonded object should be less restrictive than the spell permitted by Channel the Gift, as bonded objects can cast any spell known, while channel the gift only applies to prepared spells:

"If you target yourself with this spell, you may spontaneously cast any prepared spell of 3rd level or lower without expending its spell slot on your next turn (this aspect of the spell has no effect if you are a spontaneous caster). The spell that’s cast after channel the gift cannot have a casting time longer than 1 full round."

So now I require 2 turns to cast a spell that I could normally cast with 1 turn via my bonded object.

The Exchange ***** ⦵⦵

Half-price for arcane bond.

You still need the Fame for the whole purchase, though.

***

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:

I would like to point out that familiars are meant to be a fairly significant power boost to a character, and improved familiars even more so.

It takes roughly the same number of feats to get a familiar as to get an animal companion, and another feat beyond that to get an improved one. And a lot of the cheaper ways to get familiars don't get ones that can be upgraded to improved.

Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.

When your wizard spell books gets huge, I would beg to differ.

Scarab Sages **

Finlanderboy wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:

I would like to point out that familiars are meant to be a fairly significant power boost to a character, and improved familiars even more so.

It takes roughly the same number of feats to get a familiar as to get an animal companion, and another feat beyond that to get an improved one. And a lot of the cheaper ways to get familiars don't get ones that can be upgraded to improved.

Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.
When your wizard spell books gets huge, I would beg to differ.

Having the right spell at the right time is priceless.

Scarab Sages **

Dr. Narsius Blote IV wrote:

Half-price for arcane bond.

You still need the Fame for the whole purchase, though.

Relevant information:

Bonded Item wrote:
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its wand abilities when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties and can be used to craft a new wand. The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type."

Making the wand a magic wand follows all the normal rules for item construction except you don't need the feat to perform the crafting.

That means it comes at half-price, as that is the construction cost.

Relevant PFS quote:

PFS FAQ wrote:

"Can an Arcane Bonded Item be upgraded?

A character with the arcane bond class feature may create a bond with any item he owns, either magical or mundane, as long as the item falls within the categories permitted by the arcane bond ability (the cost for bonding with a new item still applies). If a caster later wishes to upgrade an existing bonded item, he may do so for the cost (not price) of the final item as listed in the item's statblock.

For items which can be enhanced incrementally (such as weapons or a ring of protection), the caster must meet all prerequisites for the item as outlined in the item crafting rules. For example, a nonmagical bonded dagger can be enchanted to a +1 dagger for 1,000 gp instead of the normal 2,000 gp, but the caster must be at least 5th level (a prerequisite for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). To upgrade the item further to a +2 dagger, the caster must have a caster level of 6 or higher (three times the item's enhancement bonus).

A bonded item that is enhanced must still conform to all the campaign rules for access to and upgrading of magical items. The final and total price of the item (not the cost) is used on the Fame chart to determine whether a caster can apply such an enhancement to a bonded item."

Cost is the construction cost, price is the final price which is twice the construction cost.

*****

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So what happens if you Channel the Gift and the Wizard uses their arcane bond?

Silver Crusade *****

Nothing. Channel the Gift and Arcane Bond have no interaction together, by my reading.

Scarab Sages **

Mahtobedis wrote:
So what happens if you Channel the Gift and the Wizard uses their arcane bond?

Arcane Bond does not use spell slots. It is a once per day ability, and thus Channel the Gift would have no effect. Even if it did have a spell slot, which it does not, it wouldn't matter as you still can only activate the Arcane Bond casting once per day.


Lorewalker wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.
When your wizard spell books gets huge, I would beg to differ.
Having the right spell at the right time is priceless.

It's also a pretty significant boost to your spells per pay at low levels, letting your Wizard cast up to 5 spells per day at level 1.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Cape Girardeau

Bongo! Ape Masseur wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
I'll have my people call your people about a Vanish Wand Inc. and Bongo Mansseur LLC. partnership
So sorry!, Bongo not allowed to use magic wands on clients.

Wands are for external use only.

Scarab Sages

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Though I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.
When your wizard spell books gets huge, I would beg to differ.
Having the right spell at the right time is priceless.
It's also a pretty significant boost to your spells per pay at low levels, letting your Wizard cast up to 5 spells per day at level 1.

1 base, 1 school focus, 1 arcane bond, and 2 from a 20 INT?

Just seems that if your goal is more spells, the sorcerer should be your caster. 3 base, 1 arcane bond (arcane bloodline), and 2 from 20 CHA, for a total of 7 level 1 spells cast at 1st level.

Anyway, didn't realize the apparent further discount on further magic item upgrades via the arcane bond. That does even it out with the familiar.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:

1 base, 1 school focus, 1 arcane bond, and 2 from a 20 INT?

yeah

Quote:


Just seems that if your goal is more spells, the sorcerer should be your caster. 3 base, 1 arcane bond (arcane bloodline), and 2 from 20 CHA, for a total of 7 level 1 spells cast at 1st level.

At level 1, the Sorcerer will have 6 to the Wizard's 5.

At level 2, the Sorcerer will have 7 to the Wizard's 6.
At level 3, the Sorcerer will have 8 to the Wizard's 9.
At level 4, the Sorcerer will have 13 to the Wizard's 11.
At level 5, the Sorcerer will have 15 to the Wizard's 15.
At level 6, the Sorcerer will have 20 to the Wizard's 17.

The sorcerer keeps the advantage after level 6.

For the sorcerer's shtick to be "casts a lot of spells," he doesn't cast that many more spells per day than a wizard (until higher levels). On top of that, the wizard's Arcane Bond is significantly better than the Sorcerer's (casts any spell in spellbook vs casts any spell known). Consequently, it would make sense for a Sorcerer to pick a familiar or a different bloodline, narrowing the spell gap further.

Quote:
Anyway, didn't realize the apparent further discount on further magic item upgrades via the arcane bond. That does even it out with the familiar.

Someone also pointed out that you could get a free Masterwork crossbow for your arcane bond at level 1 and "rebuild out of it" for level 2. That thing's just full of money-saving options.


Mahtobedis wrote:
So what happens if you Channel the Gift and the Wizard uses their arcane bond?

Your spell effect is wasted.

Scarab Sages

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Quote:


Just seems that if your goal is more spells, the sorcerer should be your caster. 3 base, 1 arcane bond (arcane bloodline), and 2 from 20 CHA, for a total of 7 level 1 spells cast at 1st level.

At level 1, the Sorcerer will have 6 to the Wizard's 5.

At level 2, the Sorcerer will have 7 to the Wizard's 6.
At level 3, the Sorcerer will have 8 to the Wizard's 9.
At level 4, the Sorcerer will have 13 to the Wizard's 11.
At level 5, the Sorcerer will have 15 to the Wizard's 15.
At level 6, the Sorcerer will have 20 to the Wizard's 17.

The sorcerer keeps the advantage after level 6.

For the sorcerer's shtick to be "casts a lot of spells," he doesn't cast that many more spells per day than a wizard (until higher levels). On top of that, the wizard's Arcane Bond is significantly better than the Sorcerer's (casts any spell in spellbook vs casts any spell known). Consequently, it would make sense for a Sorcerer to pick a familiar or a different bloodline, narrowing the spell gap further.

The Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer can take the Arcane Bond, so it's 7 first level spells at first level.

Scarab Sages ****

3 base + 1 Arcane Bond + 2 INT = 6 spells at level 1. Your math was off in your original message.

Scarab Sages

Ferious Thune wrote:
3 base + 1 Arcane Bond + 2 INT = 6 spells at level 1. Your math was off in your original message.

Wow. Yeah, was totally off. Thanks.

I might need more sleep...

Scarab Sages ****

Dr. Narsius Blote IV wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I think the arcane bond, which is supposed to be equal to the familiar, is very much underpowered.
My arcane-bonded Emergency Force Sphere deflects your comment.

I just remembered that thanks to the arcane bond discount, I was able to get my ring of freedom of movement, half price, so I don't have to stick around and get tangled in this argument.

(Once a day, one of the twenty or so utility spells that I didn't memorize today at just the right moment, is also very powerful. And now that I have a blessed book, that is going to be more like 100...)

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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Number of spells isn't really a good metric though. Really you should be looking at number of spell levels. (Wiz vs Sor, both w/ arcane bond, wizard with school specialization.)

math:

Level 1, stat 20:
W = 5x1 = 5,
S = 6x1 = 6

Level 4, stat 22:
W = (6x1)+(6x2) = 18,
S = (8x1)+(6x2) = 20,

Level 7, stat 24:
W = (7x1)+(6x2)+(5x3)+(4x4) = 50,
S = (8x1)+(8x2)+(7x3) = 45

Level 11, stat 26:
W = (7x1)+(7x2)+(7x3)+(6x4)+(4x5)+(4x6) = 110
S = (8x1)+(8x2)+(8x3)+(8x4)+(6x5) = 110

So for most of their careers, wizards and sorcerers have about the same number of spell levels they can cast per day.

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