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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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so I think I found a way to break the Familiar feature with a Shaman....
Shamans say:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack with shaman levels for the purpose of determining any spirit animal abilities that depend on the shaman's level.
So, if I get Eldritch heritage, Wizard VMC familiar, and have levels in shaman... and if i am.. say... level 5... I would then have a level 13 familiar at level 5... no?
am I wrong here? if yes, what ways CAN a shaman improve there familiar?
P.S.
with VMC wizard, which familiar archetype would be better?
A bat arcane school familiar with the conjuration power or a bat mauler? I kind of really like the Arcane school function cause I can have intelligent summons wreck stuff but then been able to turn my diminutive bat into a medium bat of super strength-ed death just sounds brutal... Alternatively, a cat/monkey mauler sounds kind of brutal with the cat sounding better because a lack of good BAB makes the cat a better fighter.
p.s. p.s.
Also, confused on arcane school familiars
((Specialty Stowaway (Sp or Su)
A school familiar can use any granted abilities of its master's arcane school that have a limited number of uses or rounds per day, expending twice the number of uses or rounds as usual.))
Does this mean they also get a pool of the schools power but it costs them 2 uses per... or that they use your uses and expended 2 uses from your pool?
unless I'm mistaken VMC wouldn't net you more levels than you have....
you can only count a level once for a familiar. So if you're already at full level familiar adding things that make you count as having familiar levels wont do anything for you.
where does it say that? I have only ever seen one source say that.
I can find at least 4 sources that can add levels to a familiar per character level and one that gives a one time boost to the familiar. of those, the only thing that states a cap at total char level is the boost, it specifically says that it cannot be used to boost your familiar above your chat level.. without any specific reason other then that it cant be used for that... but it does not say that such is the normal cap.
there are even faqs out there that say an animal companion can be boost past ones level using natures ally because natures ally stacks with any other animal companion source.
why would familiar be any different?
Shinoskay wrote: so I think I found a way to break the Familiar feature with a Shaman....
Shamans say:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack with shaman levels for the purpose of determining any spirit animal abilities that depend on the shaman's level.
So, if I get Eldritch heritage, Wizard VMC familiar, and have levels in shaman... and if i am.. say... level 5... I would then have a level 13 familiar at level 5... no?
am I wrong here? if yes, what ways CAN a shaman improve there familiar?
Shaman levels stack with levels in other class levels.
You listed a bunch ways to get a familiar that don't involve other class levels.
… I'm not seeing where you're getting the idea that this will result in any stacking.
They levels stack up to maximum character level. You can have multiple classes that get familiar levels and typically multi-classing gives a low level familiar, this way it lets your familiar keep up, not pull ahead of you. Also there are very few ways for a Companion to pass you in levels, using racial class bonus and such, but none for a familiar that I've seen.
using my initial example
VMC: Familiar: At 3rd level, he gains a familiar, treating his character level as his effective wizard level.
thats 5 levels of wizard level specifically with the familiar feature.
then Eldritch heritage: You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2
Sorcerer bloodline arcane: Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
so I have 5 levels from VMC, and then another 3 levels of wizard, specifically towards the familiar, from the eldritch heritage.
because they count as class levels specifically for the familiar class features... they are thus class levels as far as the shamans familiar class feature is concerned because that is specifically what the shaman familiar class feature looks for in regards to cross class interaction...
am I wrong?
*edit* I would appreciate it if you didnt edit on me like that... I specifically responded to what you said before your edit and now your edit makes it look like I was just ignoring you and pressing my point... that wasnt nice at all.
Where does it say that a familiar is capped at total char level?
*edit edit* wait, no... that was totally my bad, I saw one person and not the other... then thought they were the same person... I apologize.
Shinoskay wrote: am I wrong? Yes. What you have is five levels. Those levels count as Shaman and Wizard. Three levels count as Sorcerer counting as Wizard. You do not magically have more levels than you have.
QuidEst wrote: Shinoskay wrote: so I think I found a way to break the Familiar feature with a Shaman....
Shamans say:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack with shaman levels for the purpose of determining any spirit animal abilities that depend on the shaman's level.
So, if I get Eldritch heritage, Wizard VMC familiar, and have levels in shaman... and if i am.. say... level 5... I would then have a level 13 familiar at level 5... no?
am I wrong here? if yes, what ways CAN a shaman improve there familiar?
Shaman levels stack with levels in other class levels.
You listed a bunch ways to get a familiar that don't involve other class levels.
… I'm not seeing where you're getting the idea that this will result in any stacking. "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack with shaman levels for the purpose of determining any spirit animal abilities that depend on the shaman's level. "
doesnt this say they do?
QuidEst wrote: Shinoskay wrote: am I wrong? Yes. What you have is five levels. Those levels count as Shaman and Wizard. Three levels count as Sorcerer counting as Wizard. You do not magically have more levels than you have. again, where does it say that? I see a scaling example of where a companion can go over the chars level and a one time boost example that is capped... and all the methods I am questioning are scaling methods.
Shinoskay wrote: "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack with shaman levels for the purpose of determining any spirit animal abilities that depend on the shaman's level. "
doesnt this say they do?
No, because you don't have levels in a different class. You have an effective wizard level for the purposes of your familiar, sure, but those levels are still Shaman levels. You don't gain new effective levels from VMC, it says you treat your class levels as your effective level. Similarly, the Sorcerer option has you using your level -2 as your effective Sorcerer level rather than giving you additional effective Sorcerer levels equal to your level. There are no other levels to stack with.
Shinoskay wrote: again, where does it say that? I see a scaling example of where a companion can go over the chars level and a one time boost example that is capped... and all the methods I am questioning are scaling methods. When proposing shenanigans, the burden of proof is generally on you. The text is rarely going to specifically rule out things like this. I'm arguing that you have not demonstrated that you have additional levels to stack; everything is just telling you how to treat the levels you have. Shaman says that it needs levels in a different familiar-granting class to stack with, but your levels are in Shaman.
hmm, I dont really see the difference between effective class level and class level.
Shinoskay wrote: hmm, I dont really see the difference between effective class level and class level. The trouble is not "effective" vs. actual. It's "treat your levels as your effective levels". It tells you how to treat your levels. Shaman is also telling you how to treat your levels (although using different words), and the two are essentially in conflict. You can stack Shaman levels with Witch levels if you want, but you also treat your level as your effective Wizard level (assuming your GM allows you to use both VMC and regular multiclassing). Your Shaman levels don't stack with, say, your Brawler levels, but that's okay- you treat your class levels as your effective Wizard level.
thats even more confusing...
Shinoskay wrote: thats even more confusing...
*shrugs* You're the one trying to stack levels with themselves. Intuitively, you shouldn't be able to get a 13th level familiar at 5th level, so the rules probably support that. Looking at the rules, it seems to me like that's the case.
I still dont really see that though... and from what I have been told... unless it says no then the answer is yes. I have presented at least one case where a companion char is able to be buffed past the PC's level so that supports my case too. I get RAI arguments but I am looking for strict RAW right now.
also, how does this play into all of this? "All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master's combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below."
it shows further that a char is not meant to have more then one familiar, but that all sources should stack.
And really, a level 13 familiar for a level 5 char isnt actually all that powerful... most of its features are still dependent on the chars, all it really gets is higher NA, Int, and a few extra feats. if used right, the int could be used to better weaponize the familiar but the familiars health, BAB, saves, and most everything else is still dependent on the level 5 char.
Shinoskay wrote: I still dont really see that though... and from what I have been told... unless it says no then the answer is yes. I have presented at least one case where a companion char is able to be buffed past the PC's level so that supports my case too. I get RAI arguments but I am looking for strict RAW right now.
also, how does this play into all of this? "All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master's combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below."
it shows further that a char is not meant to have more then one familiar, but that all sources should stack.
And really, a level 13 familiar for a level 5 char isnt actually all that powerful... most of its features are still dependent on the chars, all it really gets is higher NA, Int, and a few extra feats. if used right, the int could be used to better weaponize the familiar but the familiars health, BAB, saves, and most everything else is still dependent on the level 5 char.
What is the example? You mentioned Nature's Ally, but that's a summoning spell, and I searched the FAQ pages for "companion" with no luck.
If you want to consider "use X levels as Y effective levels" as "you get X and Y levels" for the purposes of stacking, you can make that interpretation.
It's mostly a problem for being able to get Improved Familiars early and for familiar archetypes like Mauler.
Shamans cant use improved familiar.
I suppose I can see the mauler issue but strength is not nearly as powerful as intel at higher levels.... and even still it is only going get one hit with a char level 5 no matter what the familiars level is. int is better in the long run because the familiar can cast spells and add up to 3x into modifier to to damage. sure strength adds to hit as well, but the damage is less and there is enough hit that the extra to hit is not all that good in the end... plus int has more uses in the long run... even in pure combat.
is there a way to add strength to HP? I dont see any.
Shinoskay wrote: Shamans cant use improved familiar.
I suppose I can see the mauler issue but strength is not nearly as powerful as intel at higher levels.... and even still it is only going get one hit with a char level 5 no matter what the familiars level is. int is better in the long run because the familiar can cast spells and add up to 3x into modifier to to damage. sure strength adds to hit as well, but the damage is less and there is enough hit that the extra to hit is not all that good in the end... plus int has more uses in the long run... even in pure combat.
is there a way to add strength to HP? I dont see any.
… what? How on earth do you add three times Int on damage with a familiar? They can't take feats or classes. And familiars can't cast spells, unless you mean UMD, in which case it generally takes Improved Familiar for that.
There's no way to add Int to HP either, but Mauler can get bonus hitpoints if its master takes a feat.
hmm, its possible I confused the animal companion with the familiar on the int thing... my bad.
they can cast spells, however... two separate ways... but I dont think the familiars int actually matters for these.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/familiar-spell-metamagic
Greater—Eldritch Battery (Su)
The familiar becomes immune to the energy type chosen for its energy boost ability. If the familiar's master casts an evocation spell that has that energy type as a descriptor, and targets the familiar or includes it in the spell's area, the familiar can choose to absorb the spell. Instead of the spell's normal effect, the familiar gains the spell (including any metamagic feats applied to it) as a spell-like ability. It can use this ability once, at half the spell's original caster level.
you can also grant a familiar a spell like ability.
however, school familiars gain amazing abilities and can use them a number of times per day + the familiars int modifier...
but in this situation I submit and agree that the maulers strength is actually better then the familiars int bonus... my bad...
What was the over-leveled animal companion thing, though? That wasn't very clear.
oh, sorry... its animal ally and not natures ally
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally
most faqs present that it can be used to gain 2 levels towards the animal companion per char level once you hit 4th level... thus having one at a higher level then yourself because it explicitly states they stack with no limitation.
so, I think that another way to approach the familiar thing is:
"This ability uses the same rules as the wizard's arcane bond class feature and is treated as a familiar, except as noted below."
if it functions exactly like the wizard familiar... and the mechanics for wizard familiar say: "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level." then it must stack... because all sources work as the wizard familiar and thus they are all effectively wizard familiars... no?
Shinoskay wrote: oh, sorry... its animal ally and not natures ally
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally
most faqs present that it can be used to gain 2 levels towards the animal companion per char level once you hit 4th level... thus having one at a higher level then yourself because it explicitly states they stack with no limitation.
so, I think that another way to approach the familiar thing is:
"This ability uses the same rules as the wizard's arcane bond class feature and is treated as a familiar, except as noted below."
if it functions exactly like the wizard familiar... and the mechanics for wizard familiar say: "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level." then it must stack... because all sources work as the wizard familiar and thus they are all effectively wizard familiars... no?
There isn't any FAQ on this. Do you mean responses on threads? And the feat probably stops granting new advancement because you no longer qualify for the feat. But it's poorly written RAW, yeah.
And like I said, all the levels are the same. Nothing to stack. If you count the effective wizard levels as distinct levels, then yeah, it's going to stack unreasonably.
no where does it say it stops, at all... in fact it says
"the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources"
which shows that it keeps working no matter what other sources you get.
you cant just dismiss as poorly written otherwise now you are dismissing 2 other feats as equally poorly written... if it was just the one maybe, but more then one cannot be ignored like that. RAW it works, RAI that is shouldnt is debunked by the multiples that do the same thing because if RAI was that it didnt then it would have said it in at least one of them.
As no one has supplied actual evidence that it shouldnt familiar Shenanigans wins.
not to mention, there are several other feats and favored class bonuses and such that also can easily bump your companions level above your own... albeit most of them are one or two levels... but the racial class feature for sure can about double a familiar level.
Shinoskay wrote: no where does it say it stops, at all... in fact it says
"the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources"
which shows that it keeps working no matter what other sources you get.
you cant just dismiss as poorly written otherwise now you are dismissing 2 other feats as equally poorly written... if it was just the one maybe, but more then one cannot be ignored like that. RAW it works, RAI that is shouldnt is debunked by the multiples that do the same thing because if RAI was that it didnt then it would have said it in at least one of them.
As no one has supplied actual evidence that it shouldnt familiar Shenanigans wins.
Except that is the problem which you are arguing...
Under your interpretation, you have created the operation 5+5+(5-2)=13
Under QuidEst's argument you have 5... which can also be 5 or 3, but these 3 numbers do not actually interact in the operation you have interpreted to exist... they instead remain 5,5,3=|5|
RAI I agree with Quid, while I believe I saw a thread about animal companions in a similar situation which explained there was a RAW that proved it impossible for AC's(although I personally think it would be cool to allow multiple AC's that each cap out at the PC's Level up to the cheesed "AC level" the player found)
Shinoskay wrote: Shamans cant use improved familiar.
...
Yes they can.
FAQ wrote: Improved Familiars: There are various ways for characters other than arcane spellcasters to gain familiars at this point, and some of those options even grant Improved Familiar as a bonus feat, but technically each Improved Familiar option requires a certain arcane spellcaster level to take it. Does that mean that non-arcane characters with Improved Familiar have a dead feature? How does it work? If it does work, can I take an Improved Familiar as some kind of variant familiar or a temporary familiar like the occultist’s soulbound puppet?
The Improved Familiar description was written back when only arcane spellcasters could have familiars, and it wasn’t sufficiently future-proofed. To that end, you can always substitute your effective wizard level for the purpose of determining your familiar’s abilities for “arcane spellcaster level” to determine the available improved familiars for your character. In general, you can take Improved Familiars for class-granted variant familiars like a shaman’s spirit animal, with a few exceptions: First, temporary familiars like the occultist’s soulbound puppet can’t become Improved Familiars from the Improved Familiar feat, and those class features don’t qualify you to take the Improved Familiar feat. Second, tumor familiars, as lumps of flesh in the shape of animals, can’t become Improved Familiars. In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar.
Shinoskay wrote: oh, sorry... its animal ally and not natures ally
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally
most faqs present that it can be used to gain 2 levels towards the animal companion per char level once you hit 4th level... thus having one at a higher level then yourself because it explicitly states they stack with no limitation.
I can't find any FAQs on Animal Ally. Can you link to them?
Shinoskay wrote: no where does it say it stops, at all... in fact it says
"the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources"
which shows that it keeps working no matter what other sources you get.
you cant just dismiss as poorly written otherwise now you are dismissing 2 other feats as equally poorly written... if it was just the one maybe, but more then one cannot be ignored like that. RAW it works, RAI that is shouldnt is debunked by the multiples that do the same thing because if RAI was that it didnt then it would have said it in at least one of them.
Here's where it gets tricky. You can take a feat if you qualify for it, but if you fail to meet the requirements later, you can't use it. Best citation I can find. However, specific overrides general, and Animal Ally includes text on what to do when you fail to meet the prerequisites because you now have levels in a companion-granting class: the AC levels you gained stack with the new ones. It does not say the rest of the feat continues to function. The feat is poorly written because it requires you to know about an obscure developer post to interpret, and because it still remains ambiguous. Most feats in a similar situation of requiring "no levels in X" replace themselves with another feat if you take levels in X.
Shinoskay wrote: not to mention, there are several other feats and favored class bonuses and such that also can easily bump your companions level above your own...albeit most of them are one or two levels... Yes, but always by explicitly increasing the level of a generic ability that can grant either a familiar or an animal companion. I agree that you can break your level limit when something adds to your effective level, because then you've got an effective level higher than your level.
Robe of Arcane Heritage is an easy way to stack an additional four effective levels onto your familiar if you're an Arcane Sorc.
Shinoskay wrote: but the racial class feature for sure can about double a familiar level. I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Can you provide a quote or link to the specific method? I think you mean "alternate favored class bonuses", since I don't know of any "racial class features". In which case, none of them interact with a familiar's level at all unless I missed something. There are level increase to an Oracle revelation ones (as quoted above), but those have been nerfed to 1/6th of a level increase (nowhere near doubling), and to the best of my knowledge, there's no way to get a familiar with one of those abilities, only an animal companion.
Shinoskay wrote: As no one has supplied actual evidence that it shouldnt familiar Shenanigans wins. I think I have, but you just don't agree with my basic premise that "treat your class level as X" doesn't mean "you get X in addition to your class level", and the burden of proof is on shenanigans.
I guess I could alternately say that bonuses from the same source don't stack, similar to how you can't get charisma to saves twice even if the abilities otherwise would let you.
Ultimately, while it's a fun discussion, it doesn't seem like we can agree on that point of RAW. At least we're agreed on RAI, which is almost always enough.
Gisher wrote: I can't find any FAQs on Animal Ally. Can you link to them? I think "FAQ" here is referring to "discussion on the boards" instead of an official FAQ response.
oh hey, I found things that increase a familiars 'level' above the char level.
"Halfling Add +½ to the wizard’s effective class level for the purposes of determining the familiar’s natural armor adjustment, Intelligence, and special abilities."
effectively class level sounds really familiar too... Im pretty sure with all ive presented, this solidifies things.
If i run across the faqs again then ill post them.
... you do realize there are other people in this thread, don'cha?
like talking to a brick wall.
you mean gisher who said improved familiar works for shamans? there's nothing for me to say to that, you are silly to demand that I do.
or mike that said the familiar levels do not stack, but instead actually are separate and individual levels that must be selected from and are thus wasted? there are too many rules that state familiar levels stack, regardless of which ones I site, so whats the point in replying to that? plus i am pretty sure thats my DM in another game and he and I have already discussed this in his game and I am not going to argue with my DM on rules that have already been established in his game... that wont end well for me no matter what direction I take. let beasts lay and etc.
the only relevant person talking is Quid, and so I reply to Quid, as he is actually trying to present counter points (granted, they are not quite on the mark... none of them have been definitive and iron clad, but at least its something).
I mean really, what do you expect? I am just going to accept the first vague ruling opinion, or statement towards what RAI should be, that comes along? I am looking for hard rules, definitive ones, that present what the general rule should be before any house rulings. no, not a brick wall, a thick wall of rules. I presented numerous rules that gave what I am talking about... I have yet to see anyone present anything concrete countering or debunking me.
Shinoskay wrote: you mean gisher who said improved familiar works for shamans? there's nothing for me to say to that, you are silly to demand that I do. QuidEst brought up Improved Familiar, and you said Shamans couldn't take Improved Familiar. So I mentioned the brand new FAQ which does allow Shamans to use Improved Familiar. How is that not relevant to the discussion that was taking place?
Animal ally lets your non-animal companion classes count as animal companion classes at that level -3.
If you are using your druid level for druid AC then it's not counting for the animal companion. If you don't then the total is the same anyways.
You can't count a level twice for stuff. animal companions, familiars, anything.
Chess Pwn wrote: Animal ally lets your non-animal companion classes count as animal companion classes at that level -3.
If you are using your druid level for druid AC then it's not counting for the animal companion. If you don't then the total is the same anyways.
You can't count a level twice for stuff. animal companions, familiars, anything.
I would think this falls under the "can't stack things from the same source" clause.
lol, I didnt say that gisher, I Said theres nothing for me to say to what you said.
I awcknowledge that, animal ally doesnt stack because its pre requisit is to not have an animal companion prior to the feat... the feat quite obviously covers itself in that it stops adding levels after you gain an animal companion...
familiars still state in numerous parts that all sources of familiar distinctly stack... there appears to be numerous rules to insure you cannot have more then one familiar.
I was disproven, soundly so, on the animal ally... and that would have taken the rug from under me save that I found numerous other sources that still add more levels then your total char level to a familiar.
Shinoskay wrote:
...or mike that said the familiar levels do not stack, but instead actually are separate and individual levels that must be selected from and are thus wasted? there are too many rules that state familiar levels stack, regardless of which ones I site, so whats the point in replying to that? plus i am pretty sure thats my DM in another game and he and I have already discussed this in his game and I am not going to argue with my DM on rules that have already been established in his game... that wont end well for me no matter what direction I take. let beasts lay and etc.
1. I am not your DM/GM, I'm neither for anyone
2. that is not what I was arguing... this would be far easier to explain with a graph, the following is an example of what I meant:
Chess Pwn wrote: ...
If you are using your druid level for druid AC then it's not counting for the animal companion. If you don't then the total is the same anyways.
You can't count a level twice for stuff. animal companions, familiars, anything.
You are assuming the three different class levels stack, this is true... however these in your example are not different levels... your character level is what defines that they are in fact distinct, although as Quid pointed out in this case even that is unnecessary, as:
QuidEst wrote: Shinoskay wrote: am I wrong? Yes. What you have is five levels. Those levels count as Shaman and Wizard. Three levels count as Sorcerer counting as Wizard. You do not magically have more levels than you have. Your "Character" level is what stacks, you level up from level 1 and go to level 2, if you choose a different class, you are "class A" level 1, and "class B" level 1, if you don't you are "Class A" level 2.
If you Gestalt you are "class A/B" level 1, "Character" level 1, then level up to "class A/B" level 2, "Character" level 2(unless you change gestalt class, but I'm not getting into that for space)
VMC is similar to Gestalt
If in my first example "Class B" counted as "class A" for a feature that leveled up(as familiars do) your combined "class level" adds up to your "Character level"
When you apply that same scenario for Gestalt("Class B" counts as "Class A") at "Character" level 2 you are still "Class A/B" level 2, you don't multiply or divide you only "stack" because your "character" level is your "source".
Now here is where your scenario gets murky: if you switched your VMC'd Shaman to a non-casting class like a barbarian at level 6 should it then get another familiar level? RAI probably not, but if you wrote out Wizard 5, Shaman 5, Sorcerer 3, Barbarian 1, you would likely think so... the problem is writing it out that way is deceptive, as you are really Wizard/Shaman 5(your sorcerer level 3 is also tied to this in a way I find hard to express), Barbarian 1.
Ah, good to read, then I will engaged without fear :)
I suppose you have a good point for the character level as the same source... except that according to RAW levels dont work like that. Character level is arbitrary, it could just as easily be npc level... it is simply the level of the character in question and this is not the same as class levels. This is seen in situations with Hit dice, monster levels, class levels... etc... class levels do not equal char levels. thus, class levels and char levels are NOT the same source.
the shaman class states you use your shaman levels as your effective wizard level... thats one source... then if you have any other class levels then they are used seperately because one class is not the same source as another class... generally speaking.
then we look at VMC, that is specifically a character level source, as you so eloquently stated.
then Eldritch heritage also uses Character level as its source.
the issue however, lies in the words of both the familiar write up and the eldritch heritage write up... familiar write up says all class level sources stack, and eldritch heritage says it stacks with your wizard class levels.
so, normally, because one is based on class levels, and the other is based on char levels, you would then have two seperate familiars... Except that eldritch heritage stacks with your wizard class levels... Per RAW. This means that while I am not able to counter you in regards to VMC because thats a bit more murky... I Can still present rather soundly that Eldritch heritage stacks with Shaman, as shaman levels are counted as wizard level for the familiar and thus eldritch heritage stacks.
I still think VMC should stack, but that now likely falls into DM ruling, ambiguity, territory.
Well done, I applaud you on your rather well crafted presentation.
Shinoskay wrote:
I suppose you have a good point for the character level as the same source... except that according to RAW levels dont work like that. Character level is arbitrary, it could just as easily be npc level... it is simply the level of the character in question and this is not the same as class levels. This is seen in situations with Hit dice, monster levels, class levels... etc... class levels do not equal char levels. thus, class levels and char levels are NOT the same source.
I'm not sure where you are getting this idea... how, by RAW do you become a "class" level 2 wizard, with a level one character? Your character level is not the source necessarily, it is what defines the source
Shinoskay wrote:
the shaman class states you use your shaman levels as your effective wizard level... thats one source... then if you have any other class levels then they are used seperately because one class is not the same source as another class... generally speaking.
then we look at VMC, that is specifically a character level source, as you so eloquently stated.
then Eldritch heritage also uses Character level as its source.
the issue however, lies in the words of both the familiar write up and the eldritch heritage write up... familiar write up says all class level sources stack, and eldritch heritage says it stacks with your wizard class levels.
so, normally, because one is based on class levels, and the other is based on char levels, you would then have two seperate familiars... Except that eldritch heritage stacks with your wizard class levels... Per RAW. This means that while I am not able to counter you in regards to VMC because thats a bit more murky... I Can still present rather soundly that Eldritch heritage stacks with Shaman, as shaman levels are counted as wizard level for the familiar and thus eldritch heritage stacks.
I still think VMC should stack, but that now likely falls into DM ruling, ambiguity, territory.
Well done, I applaud you on your rather well crafted presentation. Again, the problem is your "source" is you Shaman class levels, which VMC states are also wizard levels, which Eldritch heritage states are partly Sorcerer levels.
what this boils down to is that your character is a level 5 Shaman which can pretend to be a level 5 wizard for a class feature... except he is already a level 5 Wizard, by natural breeding he is also a level 3 Sorcerer who can also pretend he is a level 3 wizard for this class feature... but again he is already a level 5 wizard.
"Stacking" is straight progression addition, if you don't progress into the other class level, it doesn't stack not because it cannot "stack", but because you have not "stacked" it... you already have it.
I suppose the easiest example of this would be a VMC Barbarian/Fighter... you don't add 1d4 hp to the barbarians 1d12 because the fighters hit die is 4 higher than the typical 1d6, you also don't add BAB above what the charts give you... you use the highest of what you get...
what you are getting in your case is A level 5 Wizard class feature or A level 5 Wizard class feature or A level 3 Wizard class feature, not 13 lego bricks with the word Class/feature level on them you can stack as you wish, but defined structures of 5, 5, or 3 that you can place on your character sheet in the place you define your Wizard level.
M1k31 wrote: I suppose the easiest example of this would be a VMC Barbarian/Fighter... you don't add 1d4 hp to the barbarians 1d12 because the fighters hit die is 4 higher than the typical 1d6, you also don't add BAB above what the charts give you... you use the highest of what you get... I think you are confused about how VMC works. If you are a Fighter with VMC Barbarian your hit dice are 1d10s, because VMC doesn't grant hit dice. There are no 1d12s involved at all. It also doesn't grant BAB increases. A Wizard with VMC Fighter still only gets +1 BAB for every two levels. VMC only grants the abilities listed in the description.
please go back and re read what I wrote, you have misread it.
Gisher wrote: M1k31 wrote: I suppose the easiest example of this would be a VMC Barbarian/Fighter... you don't add 1d4 hp to the barbarians 1d12 because the fighters hit die is 4 higher than the typical 1d6, you also don't add BAB above what the charts give you... you use the highest of what you get... I think you are confused about how VMC works. If you are a Fighter with VMC Barbarian your hit dice are 1d10s, because VMC doesn't grant hit dice. There are no 1d12s involved at all. It also doesn't grant BAB increases. A Wizard with VMC Fighter still only gets +1 BAB for every two levels. VMC only grants the abilities listed in the description. I'm not sure which part of that I screwed up on... but I think it was how I typed it... I meant a Barbarian who had VMC fighter levels, as you assert however, I don't really know the VMC rules as much as that VMC is essentially Gish but weaker.
M1k31 wrote: Gisher wrote: M1k31 wrote: I suppose the easiest example of this would be a VMC Barbarian/Fighter... you don't add 1d4 hp to the barbarians 1d12 because the fighters hit die is 4 higher than the typical 1d6, you also don't add BAB above what the charts give you... you use the highest of what you get... I think you are confused about how VMC works. If you are a Fighter with VMC Barbarian your hit dice are 1d10s, because VMC doesn't grant hit dice. There are no 1d12s involved at all. It also doesn't grant BAB increases. A Wizard with VMC Fighter still only gets +1 BAB for every two levels. VMC only grants the abilities listed in the description. I'm not sure which part of that I screwed up on... but I think it was how I typed it... I meant a Barbarian who had VMC fighter levels, as you assert however, I don't really know the VMC rules as much as that VMC is essentially Gish but weaker. Now I'm confused. You don't get levels with VMC, and I'm not sure what being a Gish or not has to do with VMC.
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