Vital Overwatch Style


Rules Questions


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Just a quick theorycrafting rules question. If I ready two attack actions with overwatch style, can I then vital strike with both readied attacks?


Readying lets you hold a Standard action in wait for later, Overwatch just lets you do it twice.

Vital Strike is a Standard action, so it's a valid use of a Readied Action.

Overwatch doesn't change the normal Ready rules, so it's a pretty good deal.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You aren't reading 2 attack actions. You are readying 2 attacks with a full round action.
Vital strike require you to use an attack action and that is a specific kind of action.
So, no, you can't.

d20PFSRD wrote:
Benefit(s): While using this style, as a full-round action you can ready two ranged attacks with the chosen weapon, each with its own triggering event.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

PRD says :
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

vital strike is a standard action (to make an attack)

you can "ready" a vital strike attack

overwatch allows to "ready" 2x (using a full round action)

using all the above statements, I'm with Sundakan on this topic: you can ready 2x vital strike ranged attack

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

You are readying two attacks not two standard actions, so you can't ready two Vital Strikes.


Vital strike just says that you need an attack action not a standard.


Renarin Kholin wrote:
Vital strike just says that you need an attack action not a standard.

Vital strike requires the Attack Action not an attack action and the Attack Action is a standard action.


so the general consensus is no?


Yup. Can't. For the same reason you can't vital strike on a charge.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Renarin Kholin wrote:
Vital strike just says that you need an attack action not a standard.

Which says Standard action.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

My point is that Vital strike require a Attack action that is a kind of Standard Action,
The feat use a Full round action to ready 2 attacks, not 2 attack actions.

As written those are 2 attack at maximum BAB, albeit with a -2, but aren't actions at all.
They are more similar to AoO (but aren't those, too).

Essentially, the writer of the feat has added a new kind of mechanic, whiteout thinking about all the interactions with other mechanics of the game.

Rule of cool is a bad idea when unleashing a new mechanic in the game.

We must notice that the feat say:

D20PSRD wrote:
You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions.

so it is possible that the writer meant to give 2 attack actions to the feat user.

If that was his intention he broke several of the unwritten rules about the balance of the game.
AFAIK there is no way to get 2 separate attack actions without using the mythic rules.


Yeah, like I said before you can very easily read it as giving attack actions just by a simple logical chain.

They are readied actions to attack.

Which means they are readied actions.

Readied actions can be any Standard.

So the Standard here is an attack action (x2).

Of course the general rule of thumb is that Vital Strike has to be as useless as possible, so probably not intended, but you could easily make the argument.


It never says you make readied actions. Just that you ready two attacks. If they were readied actions they could be anything that can be done in a readied action. Since it says you ready attacks then it's just attacks you are readying and not attack actions.


It depends on if the "two attacks" count as a single readied action under Overwatch Style, or if "two attacks" means"two attack actions."


Chess Pwn wrote:
It never says you make readied actions. Just that you ready two attacks.

That's kinda like saying I didn't eat beef, I just ate a hamburger.

A readied attack is a readied action. Granted, the reverse is not true, but in absence of anything to the contrary, these work as normal readied attacks, you just get to make two of them. Anything you can do with a readied attack you should be able to do.

It doesn't help that "attack action" is such an ill-defined statement, despite how important it is.


Yeah, I'm not sure why people keep interpreting Overwatch Style as anything other than attack actions.

1. Can you ready a Vital Strike attack? Yep.

2. Is the readied Vital Strike an "attack action"? Yep.

3. Are the two, and eventually more, readied attacks from Overwatch Style "attack actions"? Yep. (

Overwatch Style wrote:
You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions.

).

4. Can you Vital Strike with readied "attack actions"? Yep.

So why do people think you can't use Vital Strike with Overwatch Style?
You ready two attack actions as a full-round action, each with their separate triggering conditions. These attacks are attack actions, and therefore qualify to be used with Vital Strike.

Seriously, is wasting an entire full-round action in order to prepare two ranged attacks with one specific weapon (unless you have weapon training) that happen to use Vital Strike that game-breakingly overpowered? Absolutely not; there's no reason to not let the style work as obviously intended.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quote:
as a full-round action you can ready two ranged attacks

It doesn't say you gain two ranged ready actions.


James Risner wrote:
Quote:
as a full-round action you can ready two ranged attacks
It doesn't say you gain two ranged ready actions.

If you're correct then it's not a readied action at all despite every other piece of text contradicting that, which means it's hilariously poorly written.

Which is par for the course for splatbooks, really, but if they can't write what they mean why should I try to read between the lines?


Then, this part means what, exactly?

Overwatch Style, again wrote:
You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions.


you're making attacks, like at the end of a charge, in a full attack, and on an AoO. All of these are attacks that aren't attack actions. Overwatch says you ready to attacks. Not to attack actions. Not two readied actions that have to include a ranged attack. Two ranged attacks. This makes spells not work since you don't have the action to cast the spell, even though it could provide ranged attacks.


Yeah, I have no idea what is giving you guys the idea that they're not readied actions.

You spend a full-round action (which is a deviation from the normal readied action rules because, ya know, feat benefits) in order to ready two ranged attacks.
If you think readying two ranged attacks doesn't give you two readied ranged attack actions, then I don't know else what to say.


If you think that readying to ranged attacks somehow expands to give you two readied ranged attack ACTIONS then I don't know what else to say. Except don't add stuff it doesn't say.


so both sides seem pretty sure about what they think is the correct ruleing... Did you want to try to get an answer through FAQ? Or just agree to disagree and move on?


Weeeeelll, issue is, Overwatch Style isn't from a main line book like the Advanced X, Ultimate Y series of books. They don't get FAQ'd or Errata'd, as a general rule.


Bummer


Attack Action (specific) and attack (general) are two different terms in the Pathfinder system. Attack Action is a specific action which, by default, is a Standard action. It is a standard action named "Attack", in the same scope that you have standard actions names "Aid Another", "Feint", "Maintain a Grapple", "Total Defense", etc. You also have move actions named "Move", "Draw a Weapon", "Pick up an Item", etc. You also have full-round actions named "Full-Attack", "Escape from a Net", "Run", etc. But within a Full-Attack (that is, the full-round action named "Full-Attack"), you have "attacks" which are not discrete actions but, rather, general attacks that happen as part of some larger action. You make an "attack" (general) when you take the standard Attack action (specific), when you make an AoO, at the end of the Charge action, two as part of the Cleave action, or several as part of a Full-Attack, Spell Combat, or similar actions.

Overwatch Style lets you spend a Full-Round to ready two attacks (general), not two Attack Actions (specific). Hence, neither of these attacks qualifies for any rules element that rides on or otherwise modifies the standard Attack action (including Vital Strike, Overhand Chop, etc). But rules elements that ride on an attack (eg. replace an attack with a combat maneuver, Power Attack, etc) are still fair game.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Renarin Kholin wrote:
so both sides seem pretty sure about what they think is the correct ruleing... Did you want to try to get an answer through FAQ? Or just agree to disagree and move on?

Disagree and move on. It is an extreme long shot to get a FAQ on this. When I say extreme, I can't recall any FAQ on material not in a hard cover. There are some, I'm sure. But I can't think of an example. So the vast majority of the FAQ are non-soft cover. Plus it takes 70+ FAQ clicks and months to get a FAQ. So don't hold your breath, it takes years.


It's discussions like these that make me want to find whoever wrote Vital Strike and make them go sit in a corner and think about what they've done.

As the rule of thumb goes, the answer to "Can I use this with Vital Strike?" is inevitably "no."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
bigrig107 wrote:

Yeah, I have no idea what is giving you guys the idea that they're not readied actions.

You spend a full-round action (which is a deviation from the normal readied action rules because, ya know, feat benefits) in order to ready two ranged attacks.
If you think readying two ranged attacks doesn't give you two readied ranged attack actions, then I don't know else what to say.

It is the part where you spend a full round action to, supposedly, get two attacks actions.

It is a large deviation from the norm and the description isn't good enough to think that that was the intended result.

Honestly, 2 readied actions with two different triggers, and both can be resolved?
What is your initiative after both have been resolved?
You can set them to be triggered by the same event?
Different events like "when X move his left foot" and "when X move his right foot" are enough if different events are required?
You get to resolve 2 attacks against the same target before he get to complete his action?
If the trigger action for both attacks is "I ready an action to strike the wizard when he tries to cast a spell and both attacks hit, you add the damage together as it is delivered at virtually the same time or he make 2 easier concentration checks?

It is a new mechanic and woefully undefined.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Renarin Kholin wrote:
so both sides seem pretty sure about what they think is the correct ruleing... Did you want to try to get an answer through FAQ? Or just agree to disagree and move on?
Disagree and move on. It is an extreme long shot to get a FAQ on this. When I say extreme, I can't recall any FAQ on material not in a hard cover. There are some, I'm sure. But I can't think of an example. So the vast majority of the FAQ are non-soft cover. Plus it takes 70+ FAQ clicks and months to get a FAQ. So don't hold your breath, it takes years.

Armory.

But I suspect that this is big enough a change from standard rules that it can get a errata or FAQ. At least for Society play.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

And just to start a new meme:
"Archers get all the nice stuff."


It is currently banned in PFS, probably for the same reasons that you posted above.

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