Unchained Summoner with Synthesist Archetype help


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The group I am playing with is fixing to start the Giant Slayer AP soon and as the title suggests I will be playing this class. I chose the half-elf as my race so I could get the evolution bonus for my eidolon. I am choosing an Azata as my eidolon subtype.

I am thinking of taking the evolution to make my eidolon large once my PC hits 8th level. The only problem is that I want to wield a greatsword or some other two-handed weapon when fused with the eidolon. The only problem I am seeing is carrying around a large two-handed weapon when not fused with the eidolon. My half-elf has a strength of 8(str was a dump stat for my PC.) So carrying around a heavy weapon like that would take up much of my equip load. I was thinking of suggesting that the weapon comes along with the eidolon when it is summoned and goes away when the eidolon is sent back/unsummoned. But I think my gm would have to make a houserule on that. Are there any other ways that I could carry a huge weapon around without it being a burden.

Also I am looking for other ideas(feats, magic items,evolutions,traits,etc..) for building my PC. I will be starting out at lvl one. The first feat I took was Scion of War so I could get cha mod for my initiative. I am thinking of taking Power Attack for my next feat when I hit lvl 3. And then taking spell focus conjuration and augment summoning at 5th and 7th lvls. I am not sure what other feats I should be focusing on. I am also thinking about what evolutions and magic items I should be trying to get later on. I am open to suggestions.


Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.


GM Rednal wrote:
Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype.

Why would that be? The summoner still has all of the abilities that get replaced by the archetype.

As for the question at hand, it sounds like you need something like a bag of holding. You can't use the large evolution till level 8, so you aren't going to be needing it for a while.


GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype


All of the Unchained classes are incompatible with pre-unchained class archetypes.

The Synthesist is officially banned by Paizo in official play, as is the regular Summoner. The pre-unchained Monk, Barbarian, and Rogue are still allowed.

Liberty's Edge

ChaosTicket wrote:

All of the Unchained classes are incompatible with pre-unchained class archetypes.

.

Wut? Got a citation for that? As far as I know only the UnMonk is incompatible with archetypes.


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Bringing in your PFS restrictions to a rules question... sensible chuckle

The only citation that's important is this one.

Quote:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.


The book says:

Quote:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.

The Unchained Eidolon isn't the same as the Chained Eidolon (which, of course, was one of the main points of revamping the class). You're not replacing the same ability, you're replacing a different ability that has the same name. I don't believe Archetypes are supposed to work when that happens.


GM Rednal wrote:

The book says:

Quote:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.
The Unchained Eidolon isn't the same as the Chained Eidolon (which, of course, was one of the main points of revamping the class). You're not replacing the same ability, you're replacing a different ability that has the same name. I don't believe Archetypes are supposed to work when that happens.

No where in the archetypes section does that matter at all. As long as the features are named the same, the archetype rules apply fine.

Looking at Unchained Summoner and APG Summoner, they're both simply named "Eidolon."


ChaosTicket wrote:

All of the Unchained classes are incompatible with pre-unchained class archetypes.

The Synthesist is officially banned by Paizo in official play, as is the regular Summoner. The pre-unchained Monk, Barbarian, and Rogue are still allowed.

You are incorrect about the unchained classes and archetypes.

The PFS quotes are off-topic.

Liberty's Edge

Should Unchained Rogue not be allowed to take archetypes that modify sneak attack?Since URogue's Sneak Attack is a different ability from the Core Rogues with the same name?


swordfalcon wrote:

The group I am playing with is fixing to start the Giant Slayer AP soon and as the title suggests I will be playing this class. I chose the half-elf as my race so I could get the evolution bonus for my eidolon. I am choosing an Azata as my eidolon subtype.

I am thinking of taking the evolution to make my eidolon large once my PC hits 8th level. The only problem is that I want to wield a greatsword or some other two-handed weapon when fused with the eidolon. The only problem I am seeing is carrying around a large two-handed weapon when not fused with the eidolon. My half-elf has a strength of 8(str was a dump stat for my PC.) So carrying around a heavy weapon like that would take up much of my equip load. I was thinking of suggesting that the weapon comes along with the eidolon when it is summoned and goes away when the eidolon is sent back/unsummoned. But I think my gm would have to make a houserule on that. Are there any other ways that I could carry a huge weapon around without it being a burden.

Also I am looking for other ideas(feats, magic items,evolutions,traits,etc..) for building my PC. I will be starting out at lvl one. The first feat I took was Scion of War so I could get cha mod for my initiative. I am thinking of taking Power Attack for my next feat when I hit lvl 3. And then taking spell focus conjuration and augment summoning at 5th and 7th lvls. I am not sure what other feats I should be focusing on. I am also thinking about what evolutions and magic items I should be trying to get later on. I am open to suggestions.

On to the OP. A simple handy haversack or bag of holding is all you need.


Why does this matter? Aren't you going to have the eidolon on all the time you're awake? It still takes 1 minute to summon the eidolon so it's not like you'll be able to do melee combat without it. So leave the big sword at camp if you don't have your eidolon, and the sword is with you when it's around.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Why does this matter? Aren't you going to have the eidolon on all the time you're awake? It still takes 1 minute to summon the eidolon so it's not like you'll be able to do melee combat without it. So leave the big sword at camp if you don't have your eidolon, and the sword is with you when it's around.

This can cause a lot of verisimilitude problems. The eidolon suit isn't at all invisible. It's described as translucent but the insinuation is that it's still very visible. Not all tables hand wave these things away.


right, but the times you don't have your eidolon you don't need your sword. So you leave it at camp/inn/guards at the front gate, etc.
Since summoning it takes a minute you're not doing it in any combat, so having your sword be strapped on your donkey or in a cart isn't really effectively different from having it in a magic bag. Both you'll be getting big and then getting your sword, having 1 take 11 rounds and the other take 12-20 rounds shouldn't be making a difference as far as I can see.

Like carting around a large sword isn't that uncommon for adventurers that could have been fighting giants. So having one in a cart with you isn't strange.


Chess Pwn wrote:

right, but the times you don't have your eidolon you don't need your sword. So you leave it at camp/inn/guards at the front gate, etc.

Since summoning it takes a minute you're not doing it in any combat, so having your sword be strapped on your donkey or in a cart isn't really effectively different from having it in a magic bag. Both you'll be getting big and then getting your sword, having 1 take 11 rounds and the other take 12-20 rounds shouldn't be making a difference as far as I can see.

Like carting around a large sword isn't that uncommon for adventurers that could have been fighting giants. So having one in a cart with you isn't strange.

Strange, no, but I can understand where the OP is coming from. Plus, elf FCB can get that minute down to a round. Plus, there is a spell that lets you summon it without doing the whole ritual. I can understand the desire to want it around just in case style.


Man did this get a little off topic fast, I am not playing PFS this is just a little get together with some friends once a week. It looks like the handy haversack or bag of holding is a good idea. I was just wondering if there were any magic items that could fit the flavor of my character and what I was trying to do.

To answer Chess Pwn's question there might be a time I need to quick summon the eidolon with the summon eidolon spell(which will get the bonus from augment summoning if I do it this way) because I don't have it on or I might not be able to have it with me. Like for example after I take the huge evolution for the eidolon and I am traveling in a cave or dungeon that is not really good for large-sized creatures. Or my Gm throws me a curve ball, never underestimate a crafty gm.

The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. I am assuming that by reading exactly this my eidolon has to be my same size(which is medium by the way) or larger. The eidolon can't be smaller than my PC. I hope I am reading this right.

Also do you guys have any ideas on items and feats I can take for my PC.


Check out this guide.


Well then if you arent following PFS rules , sure pick the Synthesist. Why would anyone pick a different archetype, or even a melee class?

The Synthesist is just a choice of win. You combine the Summoner's high mental scores and magic with the Eidolon's various bonuses and evolutions, and some extra bonuses just to top it off.

That is also why its is banned. I am envious because I cannot use in it a PFS group.


SwordFalcon's Gm here. Even though I'm a little against a Synthesist, I almost allowed a Trox Titan Fighter in the group before the player changed his mind, so I don't really have anything against it. And I will be a stickler for the little details, so keep that in mind.


It's probably worth noting that the Synthesist Summoner is actually less powerful than the normal Summoner because it basically halves their action economy - and that's the most important resource in the game. XD

@Pandorym: Keep a close eye on how HP for the Eidolon suit works, and how the character is able to recover it.


The most important part of any Summoner build is how cool your eidolon looks. Remember that...

As tempting as it is to dump all stats I would advise keeping your strength at 13. Gets you power attack which is an important entry to a lot of melee feats. Weapon focus and stuff like that will definitely be handy.

Just a note for future feat advice- you are planning to just "hulk" out and do straight plain melee right?

GM Rednal wrote:
It's probably worth noting that the Synthesist Summoner is actually less powerful than the normal Summoner because it basically halves their action economy - and that's the most important resource in the game. XD

That's it. I'm making a Packmaster Hunter and I don't care if my GM gives enemies the cleave feat!


PFS Confusion:
Almost all the Summoner archetypes for the APG Summoner modify the form of the Eidolon. Because of that, they don't work with the Unchained Summoner, which has a different mechanic for the form. Synthesist and a few others were already banned when Unchained came out, which resulted in all (but one) being disallowed. But the reason doesn't apply here of course. An easy mistake.

Pandorym, your game - enjoy! :)

swordfalcon - I agree with the others that you probably shouldn't be planning to fight, physically, outside of synth form. Probably you should focus on having some support/escape spells available should it happen.


As for advice on the build. As said before, Str 13 to qualify for Power Attack. I vote for a Con of at least 12 to avoid your character being so helpless in Humanoid form. Dex can drop, though. Cha is the focus, but consider some Int to make up for your atrocious skill ranks. Extra Evolution is a feat you might want to take multiple times once Power Attack is out of the way.

You'll want Rejuvenate Eidolon as one of your first level spells. The suit counts as temp HP so normal spells and effects won't do anything to fix it. Summon Eidolon and Evolution Surge should be top strongly considered when you get 2nd level spells.

For Evo points, you have options. Natural armor is nice, but Str boosting will help you the most. The Skilled evolution is also crazy good if there are any particular skills you want to excel at. Adding Climb early on goves your character access to three dimensional movement, which gives you a huge advantage in and out of combat.

As for the sword thing? With 13 Str and no need to ever wear armor you shluld be fine carrying a Large one. As a fun bonus, if you decide to go Huge at level 13 you can still use a large Greatsword as a 1 handed weapon. If possible, save money and don't get a magic sword until you get a large one at level 8. Just be sure to snag a Pearl of Power to help the party caster toss Greater Magic Weapon on your medium sized placeholder.


Thanks for the advice, tips and links guys. My half elf's stats for now are:

STR: 12
DEX: 08
CON: 12
INT: 15
WIS: 11
CHA: 20

These stat numbers are set in stone and to me this is the best possible use for them where they are placed in the abilities slots. I will take my first ability score increase at lvl 4 into str and make it a 13 to qualify for power attack latter on.

Feats that I plan to take by level

1. Scion of WAR
3. Spell Focus: Conjuration
5. Power Attack
7. Augment Summoning
9. ?????

This is what I have planned so far, I am thinking about taking the superior summoning feat some time later at 9th or 11th lvl.

As for the traits I am taking, my gm said each of us is allowed three, two regular ones of our choosing and then one campaign trait form Giant Slayer. I have chosen Artifact Hunter for my campaign trait. I have chosen Reactionary from the combat traits. And still have not made up my mind on the third one, but it has to be from a different list than the other two traits I have already chosen.


With the increased strength score I'm not sure if you're still worried about encumbrance. If you are you could get muleback-cords, they let you treat your carrying capacity as if your strength was 8 higher, so you could carry up to 133 pounds as a light load rater than 43 pounds. The MBC are also only 1000 gold, about half the price of the bag of holding and handy haversack.


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KotC ChaiGuy wrote:
With the increased strength score I'm not sure if you're still worried about encumbrance. If you are you could get muleback-cords, they let you treat your carrying capacity as if your strength was 8 higher, so you could carry up to 133 pounds as a light load rater than 43 pounds. The MBC are also only 1000 gold, about half the price of the bag of holding and handy haversack.

Yea, your right about that, plus my gm ruled I have to use my own Str stat in order to qualify for power attack, hence why I had to switch some of my stat numbers around. Dex is now my dump stat instead of Str.


Does anyone have any good advice on how to make a more effective melee unchained Synthesist with an Azata eidolon build via feats, evolutions, items, etc... I have a couple of ideas myself and have read several threads around this matter, but still looking for more ideas. Any input is appreciated.


swordfalcon wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype

The Unchained Summoner is incompatible with any archetype that changes the form of the Eidolon. The Synthesist clearly does this. As does the Evolutionist.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype
The Unchained Summoner is incompatible with any archetype that changes the form of the Eidolon. The Synthesist clearly does this. As does the Evolutionist.

Can you give a link or an official citation for this, because this has already been answered above.


Well, sense you are going the weapon route a lot of the offensive evolutions won't really apply to you. You can build a much more defensive eidolon due to this because you don't need the extra natural attacks. You can also gain different senses like tremorsense, blind sense, and scent. I would also consider energy defenses such as immunity because the eidolon physical defense is already broken.


When you are looking at feats I would suggest things like, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, Lunge. If you use these with a Large evolution you can threaten a massive range and deal maximum hurt within it. I would also consider burning a feat for an exotic weapon, some of them can be very effective, Elven Curve Blade anyone. Critting on a 15-20 would be devestating.


swordfalcon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype
The Unchained Summoner is incompatible with any archetype that changes the form of the Eidolon. The Synthesist clearly does this. As does the Evolutionist.
Can you give a link or an official citation for this, because this has already been answered above.

Just google that part of the sentence and you'll get the crapton of discussion on the matter including the Paizo Blog's posting on this.


Lothryin Harad wrote:
Well, sense you are going the weapon route a lot of the offensive evolutions won't really apply to you. You can build a much more defensive eidolon due to this because you don't need the extra natural attacks. You can also gain different senses like tremorsense, blind sense, and scent. I would also consider energy defenses such as immunity because the eidolon physical defense is already broken.

With the Azata Eidolon subtype, I get alot of my immunities already built in and also the wings evolution at 8th lvl. My group is playing the Giant Slayer AP and I am thinking of taking the large evolution at lvl 8 and then going huge at lvl 13. Too bad that takes up my standard evolution points. By then I get an extra three from my half-elf favored class feature. And I will probably take the extra evolution feat a couple times for a total of either 5-6 extra evolution points. Which I am thinking of putting two into the skilled evolution for perception and fly skills. And also taking Wing Buffet for two wing attacks. I am thinking about getting an extra pair of arms and the slam attack evolution, but I can get those with the evolution surge spell tree.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype
The Unchained Summoner is incompatible with any archetype that changes the form of the Eidolon. The Synthesist clearly does this. As does the Evolutionist.
Can you give a link or an official citation for this, because this has already been answered above.
Just google that part of the sentence and you'll get the crapton of discussion on the matter including the Paizo Blog's posting on this.

Still need an official source ruling on this not a ton of discussions giving peoples opinions about it. And not PFS rules only either.


swordfalcon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype
The Unchained Summoner is incompatible with any archetype that changes the form of the Eidolon. The Synthesist clearly does this. As does the Evolutionist.
Can you give a link or an official citation for this, because this has already been answered above.
Just google that part of the sentence and you'll get the crapton of discussion on the matter including the Paizo Blog's posting on this.
Still need an official source ruling on this not a ton of discussions giving peoples opinions about it.

If the Paizo Blog isn't "official" enough for you, then we're done. Either way, the only person you need to convince is your GM.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Your GM would have to houserule this combination to begin with, since Unchained Summoner isn't compatible with the Synthesist Archetype. Since you're already outside the rules, the best thing to do is probably just ask them about it.

Otherwise, get some kind of extradimensional storage, like a Handy Haversack (with a sheath for your sword so it doesn't poke holes in it...). Your weight issues will be solved.

How is Unchained Summoner incompatible with the Synthesist archetype. The Unchained Summoner has all the same abilities as a regular Summoner has that would be replaced or modified by the Synthesist archetype
The Unchained Summoner is incompatible with any archetype that changes the form of the Eidolon. The Synthesist clearly does this. As does the Evolutionist.
Can you give a link or an official citation for this, because this has already been answered above.
Just google that part of the sentence and you'll get the crapton of discussion on the matter including the Paizo Blog's posting on this.
Still need an official source ruling on this not a ton of discussions giving peoples opinions about it.
If the Paizo Blog isn't "official" enough for you, then we're done. Either way, the only person you need to convince is your GM.

OK this is a non-PFS game and my GM has already approved of me using the Synthesist archetype with the Unchained Summoner. OK, I have had alot of people referencing Society Unchained page saying that Synthesist is not compatible for the unchained summoner because of this rule:

The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.

OK, first of all the Synthesist was banned from PFS for other reasons, even before the unchained summoner came out. Putting this aside for the moment how does the above rule above apply to the Synthesist Archetype.

It does do not modify the eidolon's type which is an Outsider nor does it change it's base form either. OK lets focus on the the word base form. The Unchained Eidolon specifies the base form as:

Each eidolon has one of three base forms that determines its starting size, speed, AC, attacks, and ability scores. Which are one of three forms: biped, quadruped, or serpentine.

Fused Eidolon description for Synthesist.

A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.

While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).

This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

No where in the description does it change the eidolon's type or base form.

Sorry for the long post, but the rules lawyer in me could not let this go. If anyone can point out a flaw in my reasoning or cite a link or other official source that says otherwise please do so.


Just found about the Dimensional Agility feat tree. The Synthesist's Maker's Jump class feature would allow my PC to qualify for this starting 7th lvl. I am thinking about not taking spell focus: conjuration and augment summoning.

Here's the regular feats so far I thinking about taking by lvl.

1. Scion of War
3. Power Attack
5. Extra Evolution
7. Dimensional Agility
9. Dimensional Assault
11.Dimensional Dervish
13.Dimensional Savant(???, not sure if it is worth a feat slot)

As you can see this is a very costly, and I am wondering if it would be worth it. I am planning on taking the large evolution at 8th lvl and huge at 13th lvl. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


The synthesist modifies the base form by turning what was once an independent creature into a hollow body suit.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The synthesist modifies the base form by turning what was once an independent creature into a hollow body suit.

Keep in mind that these rules go by a very narrow interpretation. In this case I would assume the word modify = change. They only way to modify/change a base form in this case/instance would be to change into something else completely, like for example a biped into a quadruped. Evolutionist does this, Synthesist does not. The hollow body suit changes the mechanics of the eidolon not the base form. Your interpretation is not backed by any official errata or faqs.


PFS says unchained can't be with archetypes that alter base form. Unchained says that the unchained summoner works with previous archetypes.
"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."


Chess Pwn wrote:

PFS says unchained can't be with archetypes that alter base form. Unchained says that the unchained summoner works with previous archetypes.

"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."

Again how does Synthesist alter the base form.


Personally, I would ease up a little on the charisma. You have very few spells that involve a DC, after all. And while your physical stats are overwritten with the suit on, there are two considerations: you won't always be able to have your suit on, and it's playing into your GM's concerns with the archetype. An extra spell or two per day isn't worth tanking your stats, getting hit by a banishment spell, and having no AC as a result.

Scion of War isn't all that important either, since your double-pool of health and THF style means that winning initiative isn't really a big deal. You'll be waiting around for any group buffs anyhow, unless you're the one passing them out.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The synthesist modifies the base form by turning what was once an independent creature into a hollow body suit.

The base form is quadruped/biped/serpentine, which remains unchanged. We've got several examples of things modifying the base form, and they look very different. At any rate, it's a reasonable interpretation that they stack. Didn't realize that that was just a PFS rule, though- the UC Summoner certainly still has an Eidolon feature.


You could look at a level of unchained monk (scaled fist) to get CHA to AC. You could also look at divine fighting technique (desna's shooting star).


swordfalcon wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

PFS says unchained can't be with archetypes that alter base form. Unchained says that the unchained summoner works with previous archetypes.

"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
Again how does Synthesist alter the base form.

PFS has ruled as they have. That's their logic. Unfortunately, it doesn't have to make sense to you (or me as I disagree as well; summoner gets far too much flak - it's basically the whipping boy of the system). If you're good with playing it, just go with it, and let this issue go. Ignore the haters.


Buri Reborn wrote:
swordfalcon wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

PFS says unchained can't be with archetypes that alter base form. Unchained says that the unchained summoner works with previous archetypes.

"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
Again how does Synthesist alter the base form.
PFS has ruled as they have. That's their logic. Unfortunately, it doesn't have to make sense to you (or me as I disagree as well; summoner gets far too much flak - it's basically the whipping boy of the system). If you're good with playing it, just go with it, and let this issue go. Ignore the haters.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, you are right of course. The only reason I pushed this is because I just don't understand where people are getting their reasoning and justification saying that the PFS ruling on the unchained summoner and archetypes applies to the Synthesist, it was already banned before this for other reasons. Is there some kind of list out there or some Paizo official blog/message board that spells this out. I have googled and searched for it and have found nothing specific regarding this.


I'm personally of the mindset that Synthesist "alters the eidolon's base form" in that you're now getting a suit of "armor" instead of the actual eidolon companion, but I can see the argument on the other side as well. If it came down to it, my ruling would probably be that it's allowed but you have to go with a bipedal base form and thus can only choose a subtype that allows you to have a bipedal eidolon. Which I think lets you pick anything other than protean.

I'm not inclined to side with Pathfinder Society in any case, though. Their rulings don't always make sense. Such as PFS games not allowing non-core races in the vast majority of circumstances despite most of the other races being on par with the core races. Or banning a feat with a primary effect that's arguably useless solely because it has a 5% chance of making itself useful through its secondary effect...

On-topic: Swordfalcon, if you're planning on using actual weapons rather than natural attacks, I'd almost recommend against taking the extra attacks like slams or wing buffets since everything's going to be a secondary attack. If you invest a feat into Multiattack, though, it could be worth it. Or, if your DM allows it, get a second pair of arms and dual-wield greatswords.

Skilled is always a good choice, especially for Perception since you don't have it as a class skill and your Wisdom score is low.

Ability Increase is always a good choice, but just remember that you can't boost the same score with it more than once every six levels.

Damage Reduction could be useful, though since azata eidolons get DR/evil you should be prepared for a sudden "spike" in damage whenever you fight evil outsiders. Spending your points to improve their natural armor could also help.

Fast healing is nice, but it requires a ton of evolution points to get a respectable amount.

Other than that, there's not much to recommend since they're mostly geared toward natural attacks.


Diachronos wrote:

I'm personally of the mindset that Synthesist "alters the eidolon's base form" in that you're now getting a suit of "armor" instead of the actual eidolon companion, but I can see the argument on the other side as well. If it came down to it, my ruling would probably be that it's allowed but you have to go with a bipedal base form and thus can only choose a subtype that allows you to have a bipedal eidolon. Which I think lets you pick anything other than protean.

I'm not inclined to side with Pathfinder Society in any case, though. Their rulings don't always make sense. Such as PFS games not allowing non-core races in the vast majority of circumstances despite most of the other races being on par with the core races. Or banning a feat with a primary effect that's arguably useless solely because it has a 5% chance of making itself useful through its secondary effect...

On-topic: Swordfalcon, if you're planning on using actual weapons rather than natural attacks, I'd almost recommend against taking the extra attacks like slams or wing buffets since everything's going to be a secondary attack. If you invest a feat into Multiattack, though, it could be worth it. Or, if your DM allows it, get a second pair of arms and dual-wield greatswords.

Skilled is always a good choice, especially for Perception since you don't have it as a class skill and your Wisdom score is low.

Ability Increase is always a good choice, but just remember that you can't boost the same score with it more than once every six levels.

Damage Reduction could be useful, though since azata eidolons get DR/evil you should be prepared for a sudden "spike" in damage whenever you fight evil outsiders. Spending your points to improve their natural armor could also help.

Fast healing is nice, but it requires a ton of evolution points to get a respectable amount.

Other than that, there's not much to recommend since they're mostly geared toward natural attacks.

Thanks for the advice, also pointing out the multi-attack feat, it seems when it comes to this the Fused Eidolon class feature seems to contradict itself, it says the eidolon has no feats of its own, but says I get the special abilities of it which gives mulit-attack as a bonus feat if I have three or more natural attacks. I will have to ask my GM on this because I have only found a couple of threads discussing this issue. Fast healing will work on my PC, but not the temporary hit points I get from my eidolin's HP, that can only be healed by Rejuvenate Eidolon spells.


Alright, this is just for future reference for anyone who may come across this thread in the future, I found this post entry, made by John Compton, Pathfinder Society Lead Developer on a thread concerning the Shaitan Binder archetype for the Unchained Summoner in PFS.

After reading it, I am still scratching my head on this and don't know what to fully think of it. After reading it the only two concrete things I can say on the whole debate we have had in this thread are:

1. The rule: unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form only applies in PFS organized play.

2. The Synthesist archetype is banned in PFS no matter which version of the summoner you use for your PC.


swordfalcon wrote:

Alright, this is just for future reference for anyone who may come across this thread in the future, I found this post entry, made by John Compton, Pathfinder Society Lead Developer on a thread concerning the Shaitan Binder archetype for the Unchained Summoner in PFS.

After reading it, I am still scratching my head on this and don't know what to fully think of it. After reading it the only two concrete things I can say on the whole debate we have had in this thread are:

1. The rule: unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form only applies in PFS organized play.

2. The Synthesist archetype is banned in PFS no matter which version of the summoner you use for your PC. Making the above rule kinda of moot.

Rule 1 is aimed at other archetypes besides the Synthesist. It also bans the Evolutionist archetype as well.

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