How a class feels


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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phantom1592 wrote:
Grognardy Dangerfield wrote:
I think the Paladin went wrong and lost its respect when it stopped being a prestige class.

???

In 2E Paladin was always a Base class. It's one of those old standby classics that have been around near forever... and really SHOULDN'T be a Prestige class. There's too much background and training and stuff to justify 'picking it up later'. Same with the old Bladesingers. The fluff says it takes 5o years learn the bare basics of the style... but you pick it up as PrC mid campaign?

Not my favorite use of the PrC mechanic. Somethings should be there from the backstory.

Though admittedly you can always do that with the goofy multiclass rules anyway... but I'd prefer the OPTION of starting on that road before we meet in that shadowy inn...

In first edition too.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Still need to rock a healer alchemist.

Chirugeon can be very effective in that role.


Paladins are an old first ed class with hefty restrictions including a min stat of CHR 17 which back then was almost impossible using the old stat generator. Newer more recent additions have lessened some of the restrictions but the feel of how the class works has not changed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Still need to rock a healer alchemist.
Chirugeon can be very effective in that role.

Less concerned about cure spells and more about 1 minute prep for removal spells.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Still need to rock a healer alchemist.
Chirugeon can be very effective in that role.
Less concerned about cure spells and more about 1 minute prep for removal spells.

I don't get it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Extracts take one minute to prepare. Alchemists, for the most part, get all of the spells that remove conditions. Companion is diseased? One minute, remove disease. Hit with a curse? One minute, remove curse.

Curing HP can be done with wands. Having removal spells takes 15 minutes for actual spellcasters or scrolls with low caster levels. An alchemist can use their full caster level against the DC of the disease or curse.

Chirugeon gets free infusions for cures and Breath of Life. I'd already be taking the infusion discovery to hand out remove X extracts, so that ability is nearly useless for me.

Liberty's Edge

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Maneuvermoose wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Really, all I'm getting out of this discussion is "people don't make REAL music anymore".
C. P. E. Bach was the last composer to write real music, and even he barely carried on the legacy of his more famous father. All this new-fangled stuff like Beethoven is just lame.

I prefer P. D. Q. Bach.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Extracts take one minute to prepare. Alchemists, for the most part, get all of the spells that remove conditions. Companion is diseased? One minute, remove disease. Hit with a curse? One minute, remove curse.

Curing HP can be done with wands. Having removal spells takes 15 minutes for actual spellcasters or scrolls with low caster levels. An alchemist can use their full caster level against the DC of the disease or curse.

Chirugeon gets free infusions for cures and Breath of Life. I'd already be taking the infusion discovery to hand out remove X extracts, so that ability is nearly useless for me.

Yes, an alchemist or warpriest can do a cleric's job if he's 50% higher level than the cleric.

That's not satisfactory.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

What? The cleric's job isn't to heal.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
What? The cleric's job isn't to heal.

true. Alchemists, even if they fill up their slots with healing spells, still have bombs as an extremely viable method of adding to the fight, providing spell-ish debuffs and battlefield control with the right discoveries.

A heal spelled up alchemist just has to be careful with the number of bombs, and use a mutagen to do melee. A heal spelled up cleric is just a healbot.


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Jaçinto wrote:
I didn't know the right way to title that but yeah. I started off in AD&D and my favourite class was the Paladin... Now it feels like just another guy with a beat stick.

This seems so weird to me. There's not much about the Paladin that Feels like a beat-stick to me:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency Yup, beat-stick. Full BAB & good fort saves is pretty beat-stick-ey.
Aura of Good You literally emit an aura of good. Anyone who can detect these things sees you as a beacon of nice-ness.
Detect Evil You know if someone's evil just by looking at them.
Smite Evil Yeah I'll give you this one. Beat-stick 2, Holy-man 2. Tied up so far.
Divine Grace Wade into the fray/evil fog/whatever with no fear. Your god protects you. The first level 2 power and the non-beat-stick powers are now beating the beat-stick ones.
Lay On Hands Heal people by touching them. This is literally a Jesus power.
Aura of Courage Now you can wade anywhere with no fear. You might die, but you won't fear it. And your allies feel more confident just standing near you. This is more akin to a bard than a fighter.
Divine Health You're immune to all diseases! This ability goes really well with ...
Mercy Another Jesus power.
Channel Positive Energy For when you absolutely have to heal every motha%^$#@= in the room!
Spells So varied they could go either way. I'll leave this one neutral, but let's be honest casting spells doesn't usually make you more of a "beat-stick".
Divine Bond You could take a weapon (beat-stick) or a mount (non-beat-stick). I will say that wielding a divine sword that's powered by your god doesn't seem like your average mercenary to me, but I can see that looking like a literal beat-stick.
Aura of Resolve Your mere presence keeps people honest.
Aura of Justice On the one hand it's all about stomping the enemy, on the other hand it's mostly your allies do the stomping. More of a "Leader" Ability than anything else to me.
Aura of Faith I'll call it a beat-stick ability, but really what it means is that evil creatures are weakened by your presence.
Aura of Righteousness Another Aura! Now even the mightiest magics slide right off your back... And your allies backs.
Holy Champion Now just hitting daemons banishes them back to their own planes. And all your heals are the best heals ever!

Really on balance most of this seems pretty Righteous-Holy-Man to me. Sure there's a few martial abilities in there (and some damn darn good ones too!) but mostly these are about protection & healing. If you didn't want SOME martial abilities you'd play a cleric right?

In short: I don't see the problem. Seriously. By level 3 you're immune to fear & diseases & can heal people by touching them (Including status removal) & you're just impossible to kill. And yeah you can also swing a sword.
Not trying to have a dig at you here, I just really don't understand what the problem is.


Good clerics or neural clerics who channel positive can convert their picked spells to healing so the smart cleric prepares other spells. I have played clerics for years and have never been just a healbot. People playing a cleric just as a healbot are not utilizing the class as they should. My cleric does heal and restore that is my class ability but that is not all I do. I don't just stand around moaning my character is useless unless someone gets hurt. I usually buff the party and get involved in combat. Depending on my build I either shoot at range or wade into melee.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
What? The cleric's job isn't to heal.

A cleric's job is to be able to have any level appropriate condition removal spell available tomorrow morning at the latest because no one else can. Except a healing patron witch.

Unless you know your GM eschews condition inflicting monsters and spells someone has to do it and only the cleric and that one witch patron can have the remove/restore available when the iconic monsters that inflict the condition come into CR.

You could have two clerics in a party and one of them wouldn't have to heal, but that's not exactly a common situation.


The problem Atarlost is I'm reading about people demeaning the cleric as a walking bandaid and that a group no longer needs one. Granted Pathfinder is a gentler system compared to first ed AD&D but a healer in a party is still highly recommended. I have read where people say a crate load of potions or wands do the same, I disagree. I'm curious how low level parties can afford those crates of potions and wands. Unless I take a trait that gives me an extra 500 gold I'm often poor after getting standard weapons and equipment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What? The cleric's job isn't to heal.
A cleric's job is to be able to have any level appropriate condition removal spell available tomorrow morning at the latest because no one else can. Except a healing patron witch.

You are overly concerned about 'level appropriate' I see.


Atarlost wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What? The cleric's job isn't to heal.

A cleric's job is to be able to have any level appropriate condition removal spell available tomorrow morning at the latest because no one else can. Except a healing patron witch.

And Shaman!


Grognardy Dangerfield wrote:
I think the Paladin went wrong and lost its respect when it stopped being a prestige class.

^^ Sometimes satire is truth. ^^


Having played an AD&D paladin, I think the two are pretty similar thematically speaking. You don't have to tend to dumb rules like Racial restrictions OR having specific stats in certain places. The PF version is even better than the 3.X one too.

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