#8-03 Captives of Toil


GM Discussion

5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Vermont—St. Johnsbury

This is a fantastic scenario with great flavor, monsters, and story. I am really looking forward to running it four times next week at GenCon! I have a few quick questions.

1. I am wondering about ways to break the domination of Dornarnus. I presume I am using CL 9 from the staff. Is Dispel Magic the PCs only choice? Will knocking the ex paladin of Torag unconscious break the domination or at least permit him a saving throw? Are there any other acts that the PCs could perform that would help Dornarnus free himself (or at least permit another saving throw) from the domination?

2. During B1, where is it suggested the dwarven captives be kept? I imagine the PCs are going to want to get in there and rescue them, perhaps even before the battle comes to a close.

3. I understand that the dwarven captives were taken from Jormurdun. Roughly how long will it have been when the PCs are able to rescue the dwarves? How far did the duergar take them to get them on the long walk? Is Fellstrock far from Jormandun? I'm just wondering about the time frame from when the PCs get their mission to when they are able to complete the task and how much of a head start do these duergar slavers have.

5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Vermont—St. Johnsbury

4. I am also looking at Thulmaga's trickery domain ability Master's Illusion that works like veil. I am wondering what ideas people have for when she shows up to fight in B2. I do not see anything listed in the tactics. I admit, the beetle riding duergar look pretty epic, but I wonder if she would disguise her company to look something like mongrelmen or some other deception. What do people think?

Dark Archive 5/5 *

1.Going by all the scenario text, it looks like dispel magic and break enchantment are the only way as he does not get any more saving throws to resist which would incl. prot from evil.
Pcs would get a sense motive dc 15 to realize he is magically under control per the spell.
Its a bit loose on details. I would say the spell would remain in effect until break ench. or dispel mag. can free him.

2.The captives are there but not there like old ironfin. They hamper the raiders and that's all I could find. Cant do anything till after battle and then just free them of their manacles.

3. Looks like we just go by the delays to determine if pcs arrive 1 day ahead of time, at same time or some time after the raiders. Does not tell us how long but would be hrs I would say. It is 300 miles from Fellstrock to Jandehoff on the ling walk.

This encounter is such a sandbox especially since pcs do the darndest things,

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Hope you have a good time running the scenario!

As to your questions...

1. Other than destroying the staff/killing Thulmaga, the intention is that the PCs need to use their own magic to break the dominate person effect. If they don't have anything that can do that, life is going to be harder for them, to be sure, as Dornarnus won't be able to help in the fight(s).

2. Joe Kirner is correct; the captives are "present" and fighting/escaping in the background, with the help of the mongrelmen.

3. The amount of time it took the duergar to get from Jormurdun to Fellstrok isn't stated. Jormurdun is in the very northwest of the Worldwound, in the Frostmire region, which is right next to the Realms of the Mammoth Lords. Fellstrok is close to Urgir, in Belkzen, nearly 500 miles away. And that's if you travel in a straight line. Given the nature of the Darklands, the actual travel distance is likely much greater. Certainly they've already been traveling for several weeks. EDIT: As to your question of how long it takes the PCs to complete the task after receiving their mission: however long it takes them to travel 300 miles, free the dwarves, and travel another 300 miles with a bunch of dwarves in tow, plus time for battles, complications, and so on.

4. As written, Thulmaga does not use her Master's Illusion ability in the battle. A deception like that would certainly be flavorful (maybe that's how she is able to get all the way up to the PCs to fight them, despite all the dwarves and mongrelmen milling about at that point), but I wouldn't go too far out of your way to disadvantage/surprise the PCs with it.

Dark Archive 5/5 *

On p.6 pcs can choose long walk or side tunnels. Text indicates they make their check and use 1 table. So they choose the tunnels but the results are all about the checkpoints. Is this correct?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

Quick question - encounters B1 and B2 make reference to the "northern" and "southern" tunnels - are those the left/right side tunnels, or the larger (darker) openings that pass under the tower?

Thanks, and really looking forward to running this at Gen Con!

5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Vermont—St. Johnsbury

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joe kirner wrote:
On p.6 pcs can choose long walk or side tunnels. Text indicates they make their check and use 1 table. So they choose the tunnels but the results are all about the checkpoints. Is this correct?

Joe, it looks like the choice is either navigating the Long Walk by using Diplomacy/Bluff or Knowledge (Dungeoneering)/Survival. The way I see it , either check determines how many checkpoints are bypassed and how much you have to pay in tolls/bribes. I see failing the bypass option as meaning you have to go through a checkpoint because you could not avoid it.

I was trying to figure out if I want to role play out one of these checkpoints. I don't think the scenario is expecting the GM to do that, but in terms of telling the story, it makes sense and would be fun. I'm just not sure if time will permit, especially if it breaks out into a fight.

I'm also wondering why duergar guards at a checkpoint would let any surface dwellers past. Wouldn't they be inclined to simply attack humans and other races from the surface, especially if they know a slave caravan filled with surface Dwarves is coming through? I'm just not sure that we would have more time for combat in this scenario, especially if there are multiple checkpoints.

Mike Bramnik wrote:
Quick question - encounters B1 and B2 make reference to the "northern" and "southern" tunnels - are those the left/right side tunnels, or the larger (darker) openings that pass under the tower?

Mike, on the map on page 13, north is indicated as pointing to the top of the page. I see the "northern" tunnel as the top of the page and the "southern" tunnel as the bottom of the page.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Re: The north and south tunnels, Bill is correct. This refers to the wide tunnels leading directly north and south (up/down) from the outpost. The side tunnels eventually meet up with the Long Walk to the south as well, after several miles. The side tunnels are mostly there to provide more entry points for the duergar in the second fight at the outpost.

As for the checkpoints, Bill is right that with either method, lower checks result in the PCs encountering checkpoints and needing to pay the tolls.

As for role-playing at the checkpoints, if you feel there is time, I don't see why you couldn't do that. Adding another actual combat encounter is, as far as I know, not encouraged in PFS. If the PCs want to fight, I'd remind them that the whole reason they're paying tolls and/or sneaking around the outposts is that they're simply too well defended, not to mention the fact that fighting along the Long Walk would likely cause the duergar to increase patrols. This would only make life harder once the Pathfinders have rescued the dwarves.

The only race that the duergar are inclined to attack/kill on sight is dwarves, most of the time. They certainly don't like other surface dwellers, but they don't react towards them with violence automatically. Also, the duergar along the Long Walk don't necessarily know about Thulmaga and her party. Remember, Thulmaga is disgraced, and she and her company are (currently) outcasts from duergar society. They are acting alone.

5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Vermont—St. Johnsbury

Mike Kimmel wrote:
As for role-playing at the checkpoints, if you feel there is time, I don't see why you couldn't do that. Adding another actual combat encounter is, as far as I know, not encouraged in PFS. If the PCs want to fight, I'd remind them that the whole reason they're paying tolls and/or sneaking around the outposts is that they're simply too well defended, not to mention the fact that fighting along the Long Walk would likely cause the duergar to increase patrols. This would only make life harder once the Pathfinders have rescued the dwarves.

Mike, thanks for your thoughts on this. Your insight is most appreciated! I will definitely encourage the PCs to stay out of combat at the checkpoints. The too well defended argument is a good one. It would also compromise their mission if they got distracted battling duergar without any good reason.

Mike Kimmel wrote:
The only race that the duergar are inclined to attack/kill on sight is dwarves, most of the time. They certainly don't like other surface dwellers, but they don't react towards them with violence automatically. Also, the duergar along the Long Walk don't necessarily know about Thulmaga and her party. Remember, Thulmaga is disgraced, and she and her company are (currently) outcasts from duergar society. They are acting alone.

The point about Thulmaga is a good one. If the duergar outposts are not aware of this slave caravan coming through with dwarves, then they certainly would not be suspicious of a group of surface dwellers making their way along the long road. The insight into the duergar and their not necessarily violent tendencies is also helpful. I think I will play these encounters with the duergar being unkind, unhelpful, and definitely greedy enough to take the PCs toll (bribe) money.

Mike, I am thinking about the comment on page 14 that says "GMs should not represent the rampaging Bulette on the battlemat;" I purchased two epic looking bulettes specifically for this scenario and I would love the opportunity to use one of them for Old Ironfinin in battles B1 & B2. What problems am I creating by using one of them on the battlemat? What is the reasoning for not using a miniature for Ironfin? Is it simply to make the GM's life easier in resolving the combat?

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Bill - playing the duergar as unkind, unhelpful, greedy, and also stubborn and arrogant (they think they're better than everyone else) sounds awesome!

The comment about not representing Old Ironfin is mostly there to make things easier for GMs, in a few ways. A huge creature takes up a lot of space, and the fight can potentially have a quite large number of combatants depending on the size of the party. Putting a huge creature on the map that can't (as written) be attacked can also dramatically alter the tactics. (You could potentially hide behind him, use him to block sections of the map, and so on.)

If I were you, instead of placing him on the map the whole time, I'd do something like excitedly slamming his mini down onto the map, or having him charge across, whenever he attacks, and especially when he damages the terrain. Pretend you're a kid playing with a t-rex. "Raaaawr! CHOMP! CRASH!!!!"

5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Vermont—St. Johnsbury

Mike Kimmel wrote:

Bill - playing the duergar as unkind, unhelpful, greedy, and also stubborn and arrogant (they think they're better than everyone else) sounds awesome!

The comment about not representing Old Ironfin is mostly there to make things easier for GMs, in a few ways. A huge creature takes up a lot of space, and the fight can potentially have a quite large number of combatants depending on the size of the party. Putting a huge creature on the map that can't (as written) be attacked can also dramatically alter the tactics. (You could potentially hide behind him, use him to block sections of the map, and so on.)

If I were you, instead of placing him on the map the whole time, I'd do something like excitedly slamming his mini down onto the map, or having him charge across, whenever he attacks, and especially when he damages the terrain. Pretend you're a kid playing with a t-rex. "Raaaawr! CHOMP! CRASH!!!!"

YES!!! That's what I was hoping for! The land shark will burrow and surface as he needs to! I am sooooo excited to have a scenario where I can bring out two huge bulettes and frighten my players! Then later in the scenario with a little luck, I can bring out one big one and have it run wild destroying structures and flinging duergar! We are all going to be in for a great time! Mike, thanks for writing such a great scenario! I think it will become an instant classic!

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Bill Tobin wrote:
YES!!! That's what I was hoping for! The land shark will burrow and surface as he needs to! I am sooooo excited to have a scenario where I can bring out two huge bulettes and frighten my players! Then later in the scenario with a little luck, I can bring out one big one and have it run wild destroying structures and flinging duergar! We are all going to be in for a great time! Mike, thanks for writing such a great scenario! I think it will become an instant classic!

Yeah! That's the idea! The first bulette encounter is to foreshadow Old Ironfin wrecking the duergar.

I do hope the GenCon crowd appreciates the scenario. I settled on a classic monster knowing that this would be played a lot at the convention. I'd love to hear your feedback after you run it. (And I always love reviews, good or bad!)

5/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Vermont—St. Johnsbury

Mike, I'll be sure sure to let you know how it goes. I am scheduled to run it four times! With a great story, great maps, and great monsters, you really can't go wrong.

So, will you be running it at GenCon for its big premiere?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Bill Tobin wrote:

Mike, I'll be sure sure to let you know how it goes. I am scheduled to run it four times! With a great story, great maps, and great monsters, you really can't go wrong.

So, will you be running it at GenCon for its big premiere?

While I've attended PaizoCon the last few years (I live in Seattle), I've sadly never been to GenCon. Some day, I hope.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

I'll be posting a full review in a day or two, but let me just say here that this scenario was absolutely fantastic to run 3 times at Gen Con. Easy to prep, easy to run, easy for players to have fun.

Great work on this one, Mike!

Dark Archive 5/5 *

I ran 3/5 tables I had of it. Ea. table finished in 4 hrs no problem.
All 3 tables enjoyed it. I enjoyed running it ea. time.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Thanks for the reports! Glad you had fun, and of course I always appreciate reviews. I'm just sad I couldn't be at GenCon to see it played.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/55/5

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An adorable bundle of fluffy death + improved invis =

I feel sorry for the cleric.

"I cast true seeing"

"There's a gray fox with a pink ribbon around it's neck mowing through your forces like a hot knife through butter. *taps head for true seeing* is this thing on?"

4/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—British Columbia—Vancouver

A question: Suppose you have dwarves in the group, they have no means to disguise themselves or turn invisible, and they fail a check and have to go through a checkpoint?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Alex Ibarra wrote:
A question: Suppose you have dwarves in the group, they have no means to disguise themselves or turn invisible, and they fail a check and have to go through a checkpoint?

According to page 6, failure on the Disguise or Stealth check simply results in a +5 to the DC of whatever check the PCs use to bypass the checkpoints. This just makes it more likely that the PCs face delays and have to pay tolls. I realize that the phrase "duergar are likely to attack dwarves on sight" suggests combat, but the intention is not to actually have a battle take place; the PCs are still able to bypass the checkpoints nonviolently, but it may take more time and money to do so. Sorry for the confusion there!

4/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—British Columbia—Vancouver

Ok, thank you! I was a little confused by the "attack on sight" wording.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

I got asked something similar by my players during one of my sessions, and I explained it in sort of an economics way;

The Duergar like to take slaves and launch military expeditions against Dwarves. They also maintain the Long Walk and allow passage/collect tolls. By allowing the occasional Dwarf/enemy past, they take that money and turn it into more/better weapons to use on their preferred activity.

My players seemed to get it, and we moved on (that said - any time I had a party with a Dwarf, they decided to try and use Survival/etc. to navigate around. :P

2/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Northern Colorado

Are the dark spitter beetles from the final encounter combat-trained and do they know any tricks? Do the duergar riders need Handle Animal checks to get them to attack or use their breath, or does the mind control override that?

Grand Lodge 5/5

In the final act ("Return to Janderhoff"), there does not seem to be any difference between subtiers; i.e., the DCs are not higher in Subtier 8-9, nor are more successes required. Am I missing something, or was this intentional?

Sovereign Court 4/5

I ran this on the weekend for an experienced party at high tier and had two issues:

1) With the dwarf prisoners their but not their mechanic I overlook them in the opening rounds of combat and allowed a wall of Flame and two fire balls to be casted. Massive impact on the balance of play.

On hindsight I believe I should have had something representing the dwarves to hamper / limit area effect spells.

2) The Wand of Greater Invis with 8 charges is way overpowered, it allowed a small party to destroy most opposition at range (zen archers are not a GMs friend) - was this intended to tip the encounter more in the Pcs favour.

Otherwise I enjoyed the game as did my players - but I think the challenge would have been better without greater invis.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

Jason, the scenario specifically calls out not representing them on the map so as not to hamper the combat. I have run this several times, and just describe them as huddling on one of the corner towers with the also-not-represented mongrelmen allies guarding them. The incoming duergar attack the PCs, recognizing them as the more important threat.

And yes, I suspect the wand of greater invisibility is in fact there as a balancing agent.

Silver Crusade 4/5 Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh

I ran this at low tier with 4 players and it was a complete cakewalk. The party wouldn't have needed either Ironhide's help nor the Wand of Invisibility; having both made things completely ridiculously easy.

Calling out Liberty's Edge characters as not receiving any PP if they don't destroy the staff seemed harsh. My party nearly dumped the cleric of Droskar down one of the bottomless pits. I imagine they're not the only ones thinking about that.

I'm never really a huge fan of applying the young template to anything as a debuff. Sure, the bulette did less damage than it would have, but it still nearly one-shot the brawler, and its higher AC actually made it a much bigger challenge than it would have been. Lots of misses would have been hits at AC 22.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

Terminalmancer wrote:

Calling out Liberty's Edge characters as not receiving any PP if they don't destroy the staff seemed harsh. My party nearly dumped the cleric of Droskar down one of the bottomless pits. I imagine they're not the only ones thinking about that.

It appears you may have misread the text:

page 21 wrote:
Faction Notes: Liberty’s Edge PCs realize that the staff has no value to the Pathfinders, and should be destroyed or returned to the Society. If they fail to do one of these things, they do not earn any faction boon for this scenario.

Not earning the faction boon is not the same as not earning prestige. The prestige award is strictly based on the primary and secondary success conditions, and is the same for the entire party. This note simply says that Liberty's Edge PC's won't earn their faction reward (either Blessing of the Atoned or Remember the Fallen) if they allow the staff to continue to exist to enslave others.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

I've run this 3 times now and players did quite well on all the skill checks, losing no more than 1 batch of dwarves at the end and getting stopped by no Grey-Dwarf outposts.

As a note I totally missed that line about the staff but none of my groups had any interest with it other than putting it in the loot bag and bringing it home.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

Also, Terminalmancer, I forgot to point out that they don't have to destroy it, they can bring it home. What they can't do is leave it behind, or give it (for example) to the mongrelmen.

Silver Crusade 4/5 Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh

You're right, I misremembered. Still, I wasn't thrilled with the design there. You give players this nice environmental tool they can use and then penalize them if they use it! The placement of the "realization" suggests the PC doesn't realize how bad the staff is until after the party IDs it. If I had to run it again, I would probably foreshadow it when the party first sees the staff. It didn't affect my group any, at least.

4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis

What happens if a PC attempts to teleport into the Darklands? The scenario tells us this is a bad idea, but not why. Perhaps this is covered in one of the Darklands supplements?

4/5

BretI wrote:
What happens if a PC attempts to teleport into the Darklands? The scenario tells us this is a bad idea, but not why. Perhaps this is covered in one of the Darklands supplements?

Unless you have Greater Teleport, the miss chance can place you in very...challenging locales.

Quote:

Off Target: You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is d% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly.

Similar Area: You wind up in an area that's visually or thematically similar to the target area. Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell's range, the spell simply fails instead.

Mishap: You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten "scrambled." You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time "Mishap" comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.

At 13 days of travel for a party of 30' movement speed characters, you're looking at approximately 312 miles of travel per the CRB. While this is surely winding travel with a much shorter "as the crow flies" distance, your literal best option for knowing where to go is "Viewed Once," though it's very possible that "False Destination" is applicable, as well. You could equally likely have no valid target location to teleport to because not even Sandricaan knows exactly where they are going in the short term - he's merely calculated the rate at which you will need to travel to get there.

Off Target could land you quite far away - and, more importantly, hopelessly lost even at a 1% distance of traveled due to the winding nature of Nar-Voth. 3 miles doesn't necessarily mean 3 miles away on The Long Walk. You could be 3 miles deeper in completely unconnected caverns and you may have no way to know this.

Similar area is similarly bad, but could lead to interesting hostilities, as well. If, for example, you intended to scry on Fellstrok and teleport there thinking that it is a likely point on the slavers' journey, you could end up teleporting to a nearby populated duergar fortress. Even assuming a favorable outcome for the PCs in the short term, this could be...upsetting in for regional stability.

Even Dimension Door isn't without peril outside of visual range. Attempting to DD a reasonable distance - say you have a party of 4 and a 9th level wizard attempting to travel 600' to bypass a checkpoint - well within range, but not necessarily within vision - you could end up easily lost by winding up in a side tunnel. The worst case scenario is that you get shunted into an unconnected tunnel.

tl;dr: Surface dwellers have no reasonable expectation of knowing where they're going and are prone to getting lost when teleporting in the Darklands, particularly the "wilderness" that is Nar-Voth.

4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Didn't notice this until just now.

Lieutenants HPs differ on the 8-9 tier.

They are 61 on pg. 16 and 24-25.

The abbreviated stat block on pg 19 for the big fight put them at 34.

Why so much lower Hit Points? Am I correct to think this is a cut and paste error of the tier 5-6 hit points?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

We played this yesterday and had a great time. We did manage to free the paladin, by first hitting him with Suppress Charms and Compulsions. It's a Harmless spell but can be resisted; the second time we tried it took. Then after we'd realized we were on his side, we used my Liberation-Freedom domain ability to give him chances to reroll his save, which wasn't easy but eventually he succeeded.

TL;DR - While Suppress Charms and Compulsions is a very handy spell in this adventure (and appropriate, it does come from the old Andoran book), remember that targets can attempt a saving throw against this attempt to help them.

Silver Crusade 5/5

BretI wrote:

Didn't notice this until just now.

Lieutenants HPs differ on the 8-9 tier.

They are 61 on pg. 16 and 24-25.

The abbreviated stat block on pg 19 for the big fight put them at 34.

Why so much lower Hit Points? Am I correct to think this is a cut and paste error of the tier 5-6 hit points?

Yeah, it's quite likely a copy/paste error. I'd just go with the correct HP from 24-25.

5/5 *****

I am prepping this at the moment. The captain is recorded as having two greater combat manouver feats but not the improved version pre-reqs. Is he actually supposed to have Improved rather than Greater?

5/5 *****

Doing some more prep for this. What is the caster level of the Dust Ward spells on the Headbands. It is not inconceivable that a group could try and dispel these. The minimum would be 11 as a level 6 spell.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

The duergar captain is an NPC from the Monster Codex, so you might want to ask your question in the appropriate product/errata thread if the stat block looks funky. Good catch though.

I think it makes sense to go go with the minimum caster level of 11 for the dust ward spell.

Dark Archive 4/5 *

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mike Kimmel wrote:

The duergar captain is an NPC from the Monster Codex, so you might want to ask your question in the appropriate product/errata thread if the stat block looks funky. Good catch though.

I think it makes sense to go go with the minimum caster level of 11 for the dust ward spell.

The captain's to hit with his dwarven waraxe looks wrong as well.

Spoiler:
BAB 9 + Magic +2 + Str +4 + Wpn Focus/Grtr +2 + Wpn Training +2 = +19 to hit. Even if they go with power attacking, at BAB 9, he would be -3 so +16 to hit, and the damage is right for not power attacking. Can't go with Dazzled from light sensitivity either, as that's only a -1.

I'm prepping to run this in a couple of weeks at a small local convention - has anyone found the cleric's tactics coming into play -

Spoiler:
specifically the use of Death Knell. I don't recall running a scenario previously where the boss tactics had him/her killed unconscious PCs

Sovereign Court 4/5

Quote:


I'm prepping to run this in a couple of weeks at a small local convention - has anyone found the cleric's tactics coming into play - ** spoiler omitted **

There are more scenarios where this is the case, even at this tier. Sometimes tactics are to raise dead PC's as undead out of spite. So this is not uncommon.

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