And that helps matters how?
Less flippantly, though, people have a tendency to believe the first thing they hear - and if the first thing they heard was "global warming is a lie made up to exert control over you"...
We've spent millenia bulding up people (especially men's) self worth around how much they make, either moneywise or as some kind of contest. part of that has been celebrating people who do well monetarily (the rich and famous), athletes, or who get a lot done (Paul bunyan).
It is rough, as a man, hearing that you're useless, we have no use for you, go home. ...more
I agree 100%, but I don't think this is a male specific issue. Do women enjoy, "the very crushing reality that society doesn't give a rat's ass about a useless
malefemale and will let you die in the gutter."? Of course not! Women and minorities have been getting more crap then white men since forever, but no one enjoys poverty, neglect, unemployment, etc. These are not gender, race, orientation, etc. issues, these are basic issues of humanity.Likewise, the solutions, and candidates that might solve these problems are not just things that would appeal to just one gender, one race, one faith, etc.
"Do you know what it's like falling in the mud and getting kicked, in the head? With an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does, that never happens." Rex Kramer, Airplane.
The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
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I liked Comrade Fergie's analysis of the Michael Kimmel quote, googled around some, and found a NYT review of Angry White Men saying much the same. Maybe I'll get around to reading it after finishing Undocumented, maybe not, but it still strikes me as a historical irony that the phrase "white skin privilege," invented by Maoists in the mid-'60s to get privileged student radicals to throw in with the Black Panthers and the NLF, came to prominence at a time when, thanks to neoliberal deindustrialization, it is worth less than it ever has in the country's history.
Even Madder Men: ‘Angry White Men,’ by Michael Kimmel
By HANNA ROSIN
As for anti-vaxx, well, since the last time I posted about it that didn't include Jill Stein, a bunch of my friends went and had kids. Two of them bowed to the will of their headstrong wives and didn't vaccinate. One of them is married to a Rand Paul fan who's holding her nose and voting Trump; the other is married to a raw foods vegan who does, indeed, believe in crystals and recently founded a New Hampshire chapter of Black Lives Matter. I think she's voting for Hillary, but I could be wrong.
I quipped that they should get their kids together and one of the fathers, studying to be an RN, said "I don't think that's such a great idea."
"Then stand up to your crazy wife!" I didn't reply.
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Aaaand looping back around to my habit of posting links, it seems Trump has now repeated a comment that one of Clinton's mentors was a KKK member. This, from the guy who got David Duke's endorsement. (Note that it seems to be technically true, but ignores the fact that the person in question, deceased Senator Robert Byrd, felt his association with the group was a major mistake, and one he regretted later in life.)
So, y'know what I said before, about Trump's campaign loudly accusing others of what they themselves are doing...? I feel like that's official policy for them now.
When it came to prosecution of whistleblowers, Obama far surpassed Bush, and not in a good way. The Obama administration has prosecuted more whistleblowers than every previous administration combined - and that stat is a couple of years old!
I seriously wonder of he has managed to lap the field yet....
Can someone get me a list of all these prosecuted whistleblowers?
Bonus points if you have the background for each name.
We've spent millenia bulding up people (especially men's) self worth around how much they make, either moneywise or as some kind of contest. part of that has been celebrating people who do well monetarily (the rich and famous), athletes, or who get a lot done (Paul bunyan).
It is rough, as a man, hearing that you're useless, we have no use for you, go home. ...more
I agree 100%, but I don't think this is a male specific issue. Do women enjoy, "the very crushing reality that society doesn't give a rat's ass about a useless
malefemale and will let you die in the gutter."? Of course not! Women and minorities have been getting more crap then white men since forever, but no one enjoys poverty, neglect, unemployment, etc. These are not gender, race, orientation, etc. issues, these are basic issues of humanity.Likewise, the solutions, and candidates that might solve these problems are not just things that would appeal to just one gender, one race, one faith, etc.
"Do you know what it's like falling in the mud and getting kicked, in the head? With an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does, that never happens." Rex Kramer, Airplane.
The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
Not only do I agree with you, but I also feel this is one of the most damaging and dangerous ideas we keep feeding our youth.
It's like I told a private in basic, "you can do everything right and dress right dress and still be the unlucky SOB that eats the bullet. Being right or outstanding doesn't guarantee anything other than your ability to perform the task you were given; however performing that task to the best of your ability should be enough that if you do bite it, you can go proudly knowing you gave your all."
Implying that there is a strong correlation between high IQ and leftist political views was pretty much me being a smartass. The left is -- sadly -- riddled with anti-vaxers, the well-meaning but totally naive, and the crystal/healing energy/astrology wackos. Among others.
But we don't let them make policy.
The right does.
Trickle down economics has more evidence against it than crystal faith healing. Guess which one makes the national stage?
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< delivers
epicmythic burn >...We're living in a Hunter S. Thompson novel. Maybe we always were, and he was just rubbing our faces in what we were pretending wasn't already there.
"We can't stop here, this is fact country!"
I don't know if we're living in a HST novel or not, but I could use a better class of drugs to get through the day.
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Hey, I'm feeling kinda woozy here.
(I'm pretty sure I signed a post Hunter S. Anklebiter once.)
(And did he write any novels other than that one Johnny Depp discovered? I thought he was a gonzo journalist not a novelist.)
Anyway...
Aaaand looping back around to my habit of posting links, it seems Trump has now repeated a comment that one of Clinton's mentors was a KKK member.
I liked the "super predator" quip and wondered why no one (that I saw) mentioned his full-page ad in the Daily News antics calling for the death penalty back when the Central Park Five were being tried.
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He grew up in arkansaw in the 50's. I;m pretty sure most of the population there had a mentor with suspicious holes in the sheets
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The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
I really hate the word entitled. It doesn't fit.
believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
If you go to school, work hard, bust your rump, then getting a decent paying job isn't supposed to be a privilege (unearned benefit) or special treatment, it's SUPPOSED to be what happens to anyone.
That has of course, not been true for a long time (if ever), and certain segments of the population have known that that wasn't true for a long time. But people are looking for and expecting some sort of fairness from the system because that's what the system used to be to them: fair. You did the hard work, you got the pay. It was earned, not given. If that's not happening anymore then someone is cheating. Calling people that literally broke their backs to do their job privledged or entitled is not true, not fair, and most of all not helpful.
Someone IS cheating. Huge corporations can invest in robots or move their factories overseas where chinese workers work harder under worse conditions and loser environmental standards. They can then buy our government to promote their interests. There is no way some mythical "american spirit" is going to make up for that, and it's hard to tell people their religion is wrong. American manufacturing has increased while the jobs have increased. Logging jobs are down but timber production is up. Paul Bunyan had to compete against a steam powered chainsaw, todays logger has to compete against a [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YXivsxDj-c[/url] with two whirling arms of death that can toss trees around like match sticks.
..and this problem is about to kick into overdrive. White collar workers looking down on blue collar workers for not maintaining valuable skills are in for a kick to the gut when AI starts doing to their jobs what robots did to manufacturing in the 70s. They're already picking stocks.
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The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
Hmmmm. I don't want to all-lives-matter a topic that has some legit points, but I also don't think anyone should feel bad about expecting a standard of living that rises as the economy of the society rises. I also would not say that working class people, especially those who also fought in multiple wars got to their position "easily". For many the transition from lower to middle-class took a life-time of hard labor. Yeah, there is a lot going on in this topic.
I would be inclined to say that white men (and a few white women) are Trump's only supporters because that is the only group he hasn't directly insulted. I also have to look into some numbers because I think Trumps support among whites is greater among wealthy whites or possibly more educated whites, but I could be wrong.
I would be inclined to say that white men (and a few white women) are Trump's only supporters because that is the only group he hasn't directly insulted. I also have to look into some numbers because I think Trumps support among whites is greater among wealthy whites or possibly more educated whites, but I could be wrong.
A Washington Post-ABC News poll taken in June found Clinton leading Trump among college-educated whites 50 percent to 42 percent."
But the gap is smaller among college educated white males than non college grads so.. either college is working or its just that people with college degrees are younger.
A Washington Post-ABC News poll taken in June found Clinton leading Trump among college-educated whites 50 percent to 42 percent.
I am inclined to believe that, because it is close to other polls, but I find it surprising how many people with college education or higher support Trump when he is saying obvious lies. If the nonexistant revelation he promised about Obama's birth certificate did not sink him, and the, say, nonexistant Jersey muslims celebrating 9/11 (and Cthulhu knows what else) did not do it either, what would it take to persuade more than a slim majority that this man is either completely delusional or lying all over the place for whatever reason he can think of?
A Washington Post-ABC News poll taken in June found Clinton leading Trump among college-educated whites 50 percent to 42 percent.
And the 2014 Pew poll in The Intercept article showed that only 21% of those who considered themselves 'least financially secure' would vote republican, 37% democrat, while 41% selected other/not sure.
I would like to see some current poll numbers for people making under $30K, and specifically whites at that income. I'm going to guess that about half are not planning on voting for Trump or Hillary, and the rest are split about equally between the two candidates. Just a guess.
The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
I really hate the word entitled. It doesn't fit.
believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
If you go to school, work hard, bust your rump, then getting a decent paying job isn't supposed to be a privilege (unearned benefit) or special treatment, it's SUPPOSED to be what happens to anyone.
That has of course, not been true for a long time (if ever), and certain segments of the population have known that that wasn't true for a long time. But people are looking for and expecting some sort of fairness from the system because that's what the system used to be to them: fair. You did the hard work, you got the pay. It was earned, not given. If that's not happening anymore then someone is cheating. Calling people that literally broke their backs to do their job privledged or entitled is not true, not fair, and most of all not helpful.
Someone IS cheating. Huge corporations can invest in robots or move their factories overseas where chinese workers work harder under worse conditions and loser environmental standards. They can then buy our government to promote their interests. There is no way some mythical "american spirit" is going to make up for that, and it's hard to tell people their religion is wrong. American manufacturing has increased while the jobs have increased. Logging jobs are down but timber production is up. Paul Bunyan had to compete against a steam powered chainsaw, todays logger has to compete against a...
That's a really good point. I think a lot of different groups face the reality that The American Dream (in this case I'm referring to the idea that if one works hard and keeps their nose clean they will succeed in great fashion) is not real -- and perhaps, never was. Most people die in the same social class they're born in. There are countless people breaking their back for 70 hours a week, making peanuts while their CEO's make 260 times more money than them. It's not what you know, it's who you know, etc. all this creates a disalussionment that social groups have to contend with in their own way. From Kimmel's perspective, white males address this lie they've been sold with impotent rage and lash out at minorities who stole "their" jobs, threaten "their" freedom, and feel like they are drowning under the rising tide of equality around them.
The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
Hmmmm. I don't want to all-lives-matter a topic that has some legit points, but I also don't think anyone should feel bad about expecting a standard of living that rises as the economy of the society rises. I also would not say that working class people, especially those who also fought in multiple wars got to their position "easily". For many the transition from lower to middle-class took a life-time of hard labor. Yeah, there is a lot going on in this topic.
I would be inclined to say that white men (and a few white women) are Trump's only supporters because that is the only group he hasn't directly insulted. I also have to look into some numbers because I think Trumps support among whites is greater among wealthy whites or possibly more educated whites, but I could be wrong.
I would be interested to see those poll numbers, too.
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From Kimmel's perspective, white males address this lie they've been sold with impotent rage and lash out at minorities who stole "their" jobs, threaten "their" freedom, and feel like they are drowning under the rising tide of equality around them.
Well, they didn't get to that conclusion on their own or at random.
Donald trump is more than the republican candidate, he's the ontological manifestation of the republican party itself: a corporate billionaire CEO that undercuts American workers, makes shady deals, bribes politicians to get what he wants, and uses the legal system to avoid paying their bills and then diverts attention away from their own behavior that is actually the cause of the problem with racist rhetoric towards those who are not.
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From Kimmel's perspective, white males address this lie they've been sold with impotent rage and lash out at minorities who stole "their" jobs, threaten "their" freedom, and feel like they are drowning under the rising tide of equality around them.Well, they didn't get to that conclusion on their own or at random.
Donald trump is more than the republican candidate, he's the ontological manifestation of the republican party itself: a corporate billionaire CEO that undercuts American workers, makes shady deals, bribes politicians to get what he wants, and uses the legal system to avoid paying their bills and then diverts attention away from their own behavior that is actually the cause of the problem with racist rhetoric towards those who are not.
+1 to this. It's the tidiest summation I've read in some time.
I found this article with a quick google search. Not that that list would contain Julian Assange or Edward Snowden as the US hasn't been able to get their claws into them yet, but there's a few names there you probably recognize.When it came to prosecution of whistleblowers, Obama far surpassed Bush, and not in a good way. The Obama administration has prosecuted more whistleblowers than every previous administration combined - and that stat is a couple of years old!
I seriously wonder of he has managed to lap the field yet....
Can someone get me a list of all these prosecuted whistleblowers?
Bonus points if you have the background for each name.
Well that will give me something to start chewing through. Doesn't seem much more than a list of names but it is a starting point.
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The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
Hmmmm. I don't want to all-lives-matter a topic that has some legit points, but I also don't think anyone should feel bad about expecting a standard of living that rises as the economy of the society rises. I also would not say that working class people, especially those who also fought in multiple wars got to their position "easily". For many the transition from lower to middle-class took a life-time of hard labor. Yeah, there is a lot going on in this topic.
I would be inclined to say that white men (and a few white women) are Trump's only supporters because that is the only group he hasn't directly insulted. I also have to look into some numbers because I think Trumps support among whites is greater among wealthy whites or possibly more educated whites, but I could be wrong.
I think it's important to draw distinctions in how Trumps numbers are broken down.
Broadly speaking, he isn't popular. He doesn't have broad support from ANY group, which is why his poll numbers are so bad.
Instead, if you look at the demographics of where his supporters do come from, you see white, working class, uneducated men. That doesn't mean that ALL white, working class, uneducated men support Trump, but that odds are, a Trump support will end up being those things.
The breakdowns of his primary voters and who they were gives good indications of who supports him, what issues are important to them, etc. In the general election, we're finding that these people don't represent a majority of Americans.
When we say "white, working class, uneducated men", that's still a pretty broad category. It includes rural farmers and urban union workers, two groups that have had significant clashes over the past 150 years. There's a deep divide between these people. Even among urban union workers you get big divides, considering that police unions rarely support other union groups and for many years the police have even been used to help bust unions. I'm sure Comrade Anklebiter could shed a lot more light the nature of this relationship for us. Importantly though, it's good to recognize that liberal movements have a place amongst white, working class, uneducated men (even if they aren't the dominate movements currently).
Another thing about Trump's support during the primaries, many of them were first time voters in primaries, but had been longstanding Republican voters in actual elections. They weren't new to the Republican party, they were new to the primary process.
On a more personal side, I'm going to volunteer at a Keith Ellison BBQ this weekend. I've never been to something like this, I'm looking forward to seeing how it works and what goes on.
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Woo hoo! Post #1776!
Something about being 1776 in a thread about US politics
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*waits for 1812 himself*
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Edit: Side note, Francis Scott Key once got an indictment from a Grand Jury against a newspaper for an article they wrote about how cops did bad things to African-Americans.
"was intended to injure, oppress, aggrieve, and vilify the good name, fame, credit & reputation of the Magistrates and constables"
The Day a Cockburn Set Fire to the White House
In which Patrick Cockburn, on the website started by his brother, Alex Cockburn, writes in honor of his ancestor, Admiral Sir George Cockburn.
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Anyway, tons of black union workers also benefited from "the American Dream" particularly in industries like steel, auto, longshore, etc., etc.
Most of those jobs are gone, too. I wonder why people don't write books about "Angry Black Men" and what's happened to them in the last 40 years and what they've done to "adjust."
Oh yeah, they do.
Instead, if you look at the demographics of where his supporters do come from, you see white, working class, uneducated men. That doesn't mean that ALL white, working class, uneducated men support Trump, but that odds are, a Trump support will end up being those things.
My question is, what percentage of working class whites (let's say those making under 30K per year) are planning on voting for Trump? My guess is that most are not planning to vote at all. Among those who are going to vote, I would be surprised if Trump got more then half of those votes.
Among wealthy whites with college degrees, I think the percentage chance of voting goes way up, and I'm guessing again that Trump is unlikely to cross the 50% line. I think Trump is a phenomenon of the wealthier, not poorer people, but I would have to really check the fine print of some polls to see what the facts are.
We hear a lot about how Trumpism is the fault of whites at the bottom of the economic ladder, but blaming poor people for the words and actions of a connected billionaire seems... backward or upside down.
Among wealthy whites with college degrees, I think the percentage chance of voting goes way up, and I'm guessing again that Trump is unlikely to cross the 50% line.
I think Trump is a phenomenon of the wealthier, not poorer people, but I would have to really check the fine print of some polls to see what the facts are.
You're assuming that people don't vote against their own best interests.
People vote against their own best interests.
A college degree drops the support for trump a bit among men, and absolutely tanks it for women.
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Implying that there is a strong correlation between high IQ and leftist political views was pretty much me being a smartass. The left is -- sadly -- riddled with anti-vaxers, the well-meaning but totally naive, and the crystal/healing energy/astrology wackos. Among others.
But we don't let them make policy.
The right does.
Trickle down economics has more evidence against it than crystal faith healing. Guess which one makes the national stage?
There was an excellent Jon Oliver show which demonstrated how the advocacy group known as ALEC LITERALLY writes bills and then passes them on to Congressman to introduce practically verbatim. The corporates are writing the laws of the land.
Anyway, tons of black union workers also benefited from "the American Dream" particularly in industries like steel, auto, longshore, etc., etc.
Most of those jobs are gone, too. I wonder why people don't write books about "Angry Black Men" and what's happened to them in the last 40 years and what they've done to "adjust."
Oh yeah, they do.
Looks more like a book about what has been done to them to adjust them to their "place" in society by people that don't want to see them fulfill "the American Dream"
But making that's just because my sarcasm meter has been on the fritz from overloads this election cycle?
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There was an excellent Jon Oliver show which demonstrated how the advocacy group known as ALEC LITERALLY writes bills and then passes them on to Congressman to introduce practically verbatim. The corporates are writing the laws of the land.
Even worse, ALEC bills are being passed verbatim in your state legislatures as well. Why do you think these anti-LGBT bills all sound alike?
I would be interested to see those poll numbers, too.The difference is that white males feel ENTITLED to success because their legacy and fathers before them acquired it so easily. They built masculine ideals around the concept that one forges their own destiny and makes a living for themselves (The Self Made Man).
EDIT: I wanted to add that I agree that the problem is not limited to one group of people though. I just think this particular demographic warranted discussion because it is trumps only support.
Hmmmm. I don't want to all-lives-matter a topic that has some legit points, but I also don't think anyone should feel bad about expecting a standard of living that rises as the economy of the society rises. I also would not say that working class people, especially those who also fought in multiple wars got to their position "easily". For many the transition from lower to middle-class took a life-time of hard labor. Yeah, there is a lot going on in this topic.
I would be inclined to say that white men (and a few white women) are Trump's only supporters because that is the only group he hasn't directly insulted. I also have to look into some numbers because I think Trumps support among whites is greater among wealthy whites or possibly more educated whites, but I could be wrong.
Important thing to remember is that during the primaries, Trumps numbers were sampled among the more narrowed subset of the Republican party, the militant theological core. Now they're being sampled across the general electorate which is going to be a different picture, which is why historically, primary winners typically move their rhetoric over to the center.
Which has not has happened as much this campaign. Clinton has been held back by her need to assure the Sanders crowd by giving at least lip service to the Sanders planks that got nailed to the platform, and Trump has up to know remained steadfast in the belief that what got him the primaries will give him the general election, a belief that he holds not entirely without reason.
There's a lot of constructive discussion going on here. Definitely one of the better political threads I've been in :)
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*admits to not adding to the constructive nature other than trying to make people laugh*
I feel I failed this thread.
You can start anytime. o wo/ For example, what do you think of the increasing amount of Russian activity in regards to our elections?
You can start anytime. o wo/ For example, what do you think of the increasing amount of Russian activity in regards to our elections?
I think I'd rather the Russian try beating us in chess instead to determine who wins a war.
Instead, if you look at the demographics of where his supporters do come from, you see white, working class, uneducated men. That doesn't mean that ALL white, working class, uneducated men support Trump, but that odds are, a Trump support will end up being those things.My question is, what percentage of working class whites (let's say those making under 30K per year) are planning on voting for Trump? My guess is that most are not planning to vote at all. Among those who are going to vote, I would be surprised if Trump got more then half of those votes.
Among wealthy whites with college degrees, I think the percentage chance of voting goes way up, and I'm guessing again that Trump is unlikely to cross the 50% line. I think Trump is a phenomenon of the wealthier, not poorer people, but I would have to really check the fine print of some polls to see what the facts are.
We hear a lot about how Trumpism is the fault of whites at the bottom of the economic ladder, but blaming poor people for the words and actions of a connected billionaire seems... backward or upside down.
The % of voting goes up, but the pool of people goes down.
For example, here's a stat on abortions, women with incomes over $47,000 abort 32% of their pregnancies, while women making $11,670 or less only abort 8.6% of their pregnancies. But women who live near or under the poverty line account for 70% of abortions.
How you ask the question and look at the numbers matter. If you're trying to ask "What majority does Trump get his support from?" the resounding answer is "None", because he doesn't have majority support. He's losing in the polls, so you have to change the premise of your question and how you approach it if you want to get at an answer that will tell you something.
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In a move that probably won't help Republicans, the Supreme Court declined to reinstate parts of North Carolina's new Voter ID law, in a 4-4 split that upheld a lower court's ruling.
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In a move that probably won't help Republicans, the Supreme Court declined to reinstate parts of North Carolina's new Voter ID law, in a 4-4 split that upheld a lower court's ruling.
It really bothers me that this was a 4-4 split. I'm no fan of the conservative justices, but I thought that blatantly racist voter disenfranchisement was a line that Kennedy and possibly even Roberts would not cross.
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It's probably worth noting that only Clarence Thomas would've granted the stay in its entirety - Alito, Kennedy, and Roberts were only willing to do a partial one. The lead lawyer for North Carolina had been asking for a few parts to be reinstated, but that was ultimately rejected.
Trump says the media won't report on facts. USA Today kindly fact-checked his recent immigration speech.
Trump says the media won't report on facts.
Then why is he on the news so often?