2016 US Election


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Looks like the market lost 4% of it's value in the last couple hours...


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Turin the Mad wrote:
This could wind up 269-269.

...and then it goes to the House, where Trump wins.

The people have spoken. The election wasn't rigged. Trump didn't cheat. He won fair and square, and as much as I dislike it -- and boy, do I -- come January he's going to be our President. While I will never respect Donald Trump, it is imperative that we all respect the presidency and the legitimate authority granted thereby.

There will be times which we simply cannot compromise, but we can and must choose those battles carefully. We cannot allow ourselves to become a party of gridlock and knee-jerk opposition. When President Trump nominates a cabinet member or judge, we must provide a prompt hearing and vote. When president Trump speaks, we must listen respectfully. Let's not dwell endlessly on Trump University, or speak of impeaching the President without clear and convincing evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

We lost. That hurts. But if there is one thing America can't afford right now, it's a hundred and fifty million sore losers.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

What planet are you flushing this paranoid delusion from?


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
bugleyman wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
This could wind up 269-269.

...and then it goes to the House, where Trump wins.

The people have spoken. The election wasn't rigged. Trump didn't cheat. He won fair and square,

let's see the popular vote on that first.


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I often wonder exactly what people thought/think are in these emails? "I totally did Benghazi and here's how!"?

@Killer_GM: Yeah. Now they can have the corrupt Trump who has big ideas and will hire "the best people".


Fergie wrote:
Looks like the market lost 4% of it's value in the last couple hours...

Yes, hilarious headline on CNN right now: "Global markets tank, currencies go wild and gold rises".


I suppose we can hope he's been trolling the right this entire time and will actually be a decent president?


CBDunkerson wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
Out of control Healthcare costs are what the affordable care act has brought already.

The rate of health care cost increases has DECLINED since the ACA was passed. Logically, if it is repealed, costs will resume growing at the previous higher rate.

Quote:
It is one of the main reasons the Dems are losing tonight.

Spare me the fiction. My family plan went up $9,000.00 last year. Many other families who actually pay for their own insurance are being bled dry by the insane increases in premiums. Even Bill Clinton admitted it. Its not even debatable.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

Thank you.


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Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

...You mean besides the budget plan that would continue to reduce the deficit (i.e. help stop it from growing, and move towards a surplus), as opposed to the guy whose budget proposal looks like it would massively increase the debt?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I suppose we can hope he's been trolling the right this entire time and will actually be a decent president?

This has been my secret hope the entire campaign. That Trump was pulling off the greatest con of all time. Play to the farthest right group he can muster, motivate their base, and then, when he has that group supporting you and are in the White House, turn around and go almost Democrat/Moderate. I'd love it.


Killer_GM wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
Out of control Healthcare costs are what the affordable care act has brought already.

The rate of health care cost increases has DECLINED since the ACA was passed. Logically, if it is repealed, costs will resume growing at the previous higher rate.

Quote:
It is one of the main reasons the Dems are losing tonight.
Spare me the fiction. My family plan went up $9,000.00 last year. Many other families who actually pay for their own insurance are being bled dry by the insane increases in premiums. Even Bill Clinton admitted it. Its not even debatable.

Look up who put the poison pill in certain legislation. It wasn't the ACA. It was what they did to it.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
let's see the popular vote on that first.

That's not how the system works. One could argue that it should be, but we can't change the rules at halftime. :-/


And trump will fix that how? Increased military spending? Tax cuts? Cutting social security and welfare?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Well I do hope you enjoy your upcomming dystopian reality


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Killer_GM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.

Funnily enough, we actually had a Surplus for a short while...under Bill Clinton. That disappeared under Bush.

See, the thing is, in order to get out of recessions, you need to stimulate the economy. How do you do that? By setting up jobs and other forms of labor/projects. Those cost money, which pushes us into debt. Logically, once the economy has bounced back, taxes should go up, which will pay back the deficit that was formed. However, we have yet to reach that second part. And that doesn't seem to be coming any time soon.


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Killer_GM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.

and when the debt went up under Bush... Everything was Jake?


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Killer_GM wrote:
The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.

You keep switching between debt and deficit. The debt is up; deficits are going down, but projected to rise under Trump (assuming he does what he has said he plans to do).

Neither major party can reasonably claim to be fiscally responsible at this point.


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As crappy as things will be here in the U.S., I'm terrified about how many innocent Arabians, Asians, and Africans are going to killed under CiC Trump's military orders in pursuit of just taking their resources terrorists.


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Killer_GM wrote:

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.

The story behind the debt


In other news, lots of Marijuana initiatives seem to be passing.

...

Maybe we want to make it the 70's again...?

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
FantheFlames wrote:


Funnily enough, we actually had a Surplus for a short while...under Bill Clinton. That disappeared under Bush.

See, the thing is, in order to get out of recessions, you need to stimulate the economy. How do you do that?

By getting lucky and presiding over the 90's tech boom which had nothing to do with either the democratic president or republican congress? :P (Frankly - I think all politicians get way too much credit for how the economy does - both good & bad.)

Sovereign Court

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Killer_GM wrote:

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.

Do you know why the debt went up so much? Because of a thing called the deficit. The US was spending much more then it was making. That's a deficit. The last time the US had a surplus, and was starting to pay down the debt was under Bill Clinton. Then Bush took over.

After that smoking crater Obama was handed the worst economic rescission since the great depression, after eight years he's almost got the deficit under control. Now Trump is likely to take over.


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Killer_GM wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
Out of control Healthcare costs are what the affordable care act has brought already.

The rate of health care cost increases has DECLINED since the ACA was passed. Logically, if it is repealed, costs will resume growing at the previous higher rate.

Quote:
It is one of the main reasons the Dems are losing tonight.
Spare me the fiction. My family plan went up $9,000.00 last year. Many other families who actually pay for their own insurance are being bled dry by the insane increases in premiums. Even Bill Clinton admitted it. Its not even debatable.

Health care costs were skyrocketing before Obama took office as well. The problem is the ACA didn't really address increasing prices, it just mandated increased access.

Right now, it's already a "free market" for health care. There's lots of government involvement, but mostly it's subsidies which are reducing cost increases. Reducing government involvement is only going to let rates go up faster, while completely taking away access from probably 10-30 million people. In 4 years your rates will have continue to climb AND it might be possible for your provider to deny you coverage altogether again.


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Such a rigged election, right Trump? :p


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
FantheFlames wrote:


Funnily enough, we actually had a Surplus for a short while...under Bill Clinton. That disappeared under Bush.

See, the thing is, in order to get out of recessions, you need to stimulate the economy. How do you do that?

By getting lucky and presiding over the 90's tech boom which had nothing to do with either the democratic president or republican congress? :P

Hah! Fair enough. I was more talking about the Recession that we were going into near the end of Bush's presidency when it came to getting out of it. Clinton definitely was a matter of right time, right place. I just also feel that this idea that spending money is bad isn't always the case. The part that's bad is when you don't balance it out when you get to the good years.


Rednal wrote:

In other news, lots of Marijuana initiatives seem to be passing.

...

Maybe we want to make it the 70's again...?

I hope not. I had to wear some really ugly clothes back then. :/


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.
and when the debt went up under Bush... Everything was Jake?

Bush is cut from the same cloth as the Clintons. They wasted 2 trillion on wars that achieved little. I'm not defending Bush 41 or 43.

Liberty's Edge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Crisischild wrote:

I voted for Harambe, but why is everyone here acting like misanthrope Clinton would be better than crazy Trump? They're both terrible people who are terrible for the US and terrible for the world.

Lazy, sloppy, indolent, self righteous nonintellectual horse-feathers like this is how we got here.

Getting caught in the rain and getting beaten with a baseball bat are both bad, but if you have a choice between them you go in the rain.

Or you could stay inside till the weather clears. Obama could have hung on for a little longer while we called a do-over. Happily handing the reigns over to an awful, awful candidate is not a good decision, it's not even the best decision. And saying "well one mountain of s&~~ is slightly smaller than the other mountain of s&*&" is EXACTLY how we got here. They are both terrible for humanity and for the planet. That is all that matters. The left is awful. The right is awful. They're all controlled by billionaire corporations. They're all self serving lunatics. Accepting the better of the two is not...better. it's worse it's far worse. Our whole system is built from the ground up to allow megacorparations to keep control of the country and Clinton is just another puppet for them.

I like my Obama idea. Let's keep him for four more years. He wasn't so bad.

Bruunwald wrote:
Crisischild wrote:

I voted for Harambe, but why is everyone here acting like misanthrope Clinton would be better than crazy Trump? They're both terrible people who are terrible for the US and terrible for the world.

I know this site is hyper left wing (by US standards) but seriously. Pretending she's any better than Trump is willful ignorance and denial, which is exactly what got us in to this situation in the first place.

The painful truth is we US citizens really hecked up this time, even more than usual.

I do have to say I didn't think the US would ever see another republican president. The US right just doesn't hold the same values that the rest of the western world does, and the millenials and 90s kids certainly aren't voting right. I'm totally floored right now. But Brexit happened and they killed Harambe. I guess anything is possible.

Also, stop being so dramatic. This is not the end of the world. Maybe in four years we'll have learned something and our prime candidates won't be members of the oligarchy.

One of the hardest things to tolerate throughout this crapstorm has been the lame equivalency argument. Hillary Clinton is nowhere near as bad a candidate or even human being that Trump is, and is supremely more qualified, resume-wise, to hold office.

This whole equivalency thing is just a short cut to thinking. Makes people feel better about not actually giving a crap enough to pick up a newspaper and actually read it.

One of the hardest things to tolerate through the this crapstorm has been the lame argument that just because Clinton isn't as bad as Trump she is somehow the person that should be POTUS. Feed the machine a whole fish or a half a fish. You're still feeding the machine. Neither of these people will make things better as a whole. They will take from those they dislike and give to those they like. They will push their personal agendas and ignore the rest of the western world as it haphazardly tries to pull things together.

FantheFlames wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I suppose we can hope he's been trolling the right this entire time and will actually be a decent president?
This has been my secret hope the entire campaign. That Trump was pulling off the greatest con of all time. Play to the farthest right group he can muster, motivate their base, and then, when he has that group supporting you and are in the White House, turn around and go almost Democrat/Moderate. I'd love it.

I'm 97 percent sure Trump running was just a joke that went too far and he didn't know how to back out once he got in too deep.


I was born in the 70's... I also happen to be starting over in life right now... so maybe?

Sovereign Court

FantheFlames wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
FantheFlames wrote:


Funnily enough, we actually had a Surplus for a short while...under Bill Clinton. That disappeared under Bush.

See, the thing is, in order to get out of recessions, you need to stimulate the economy. How do you do that?

By getting lucky and presiding over the 90's tech boom which had nothing to do with either the democratic president or republican congress? :P
Hah! Fair enough. I was more talking about the Recession that we were going into near the end of Bush's presidency when it came to getting out of it. Clinton definitely was a matter of right time, right place. I just also feel that this idea that spending money is bad isn't always the case. The part that's bad is when you don't balance it out when you get to the good years.

No - I get the theory. The two sides mostly just disagree as to whether it's better for the gov to spend the $ or if it's better to cut taxes and let people spend the $. (Reagan's tax cuts were the latter side of the theory - which also led to deficits. Not going to get into the debate between the two sides here.)

Grand Lodge

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You know what. I got the President I wanted for the last 8 years, and a lot of people weren't happy with him for reasons I didn't understand. If Trump wins I suppose it is my turn to endure.

I feel it is important that everyone notes that no matter who wins our personal agency isn't gone. If the country goes in what we feel is a bad direction in the next couple years we can always still do something to try and improve it.


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Yeah, but with the GOP in charge of everything, we're talking a lot more jury-rigging and voter suppression. Which is what won them this election. More voters were disenfranchised than voted for third-party candidates.


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I'm an atheist, but I hope to any divine power listening that Obama can figure out a peaceful and just solution to those at Standing Rock in his remaining time in office. If not, I fear it's going to end very badly for them.


Irontruth wrote:

Health care costs were skyrocketing before Obama took office as well. The problem is the ACA didn't really address increasing prices, it just mandated increased access.

Right now, it's already a "free market" for health care. There's lots of government involvement, but mostly it's subsidies which are reducing cost increases. Reducing government involvement is only going to let rates go up faster, while completely taking away access from probably 10-30 million people. In 4 years your rates will have continue to climb AND it might be possible for your provider to deny you coverage altogether again.

What cost Reducing are you talking about? Arizona premiums are going up over 100 % in 2017. Everyone's premiums are going thru the roof. Insurance companies are pulling out of Obamacare faster than a 3rd world banana republic, because they're losing hundreds of millions of dollars per year. It is unsustainable, without bleeding everyone who pays into the system to subsidize everyone who doesn't. I'm a healthcare professional. I see this every day.


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*Sips tea*

...I wonder if all those closed polling places had something to do with it.

Dark Archive

Keep BO, just how would that happen?

Sovereign Court

Charon's Little Helper wrote:


(Frankly - I think all politicians get way too much credit for how the economy does - both good & bad.)

Three initials for you: FDR


Guy Humual wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.

Do you know why the debt went up so much? Because of a thing called the deficit. The US was spending much more then it was making. That's a deficit. The last time the US had a surplus, and was starting to pay down the debt was under Bill Clinton. Then Bush took over.

After that smoking crater Obama was handed the worst economic rescission since the great depression, after eight years he's almost got the deficit under control. Now Trump is likely to take over.

That's correct. Obama has spent more than 1 trillion dollars per year than the feds took in in income taxes. That money was borrowed, and has been added to the debt, which now stands at close to 20 trillion.

Bush took the debt from 6 trillion to 10 trillion. Totally unacceptable, and the Republicans who went along with it are also to blame.

Clinton had a surplus because of the dot.com boom on Wallstreet that masked the financial debacle he created. That debacle arrived the last year of his presidency and continued through the early years of the Bush 43 first presidency, which didn't change course.


Killer_GM wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
The USA is done with the corrupt Clintons, who have no solution for 20 trillion in debt and how to pay for this failed socialist utopian dream.

Deficits go down under Democratic presidents and go up under republicans.

Tax breaks cost money

Wars cost money, and only make money for defense contractors and oil companies, not tax payers.

THIS is what's frustrating to me: a complete lack of a reality based throught process.

The debt went from 10 trillion to almost 20 trillion under Obama. Who are you kidding. That's the debt of all prior presidential administrations combined.
and when the debt went up under Bush... Everything was Jake?
Bush is cut from the same cloth as the Clintons. They wasted 2 trillion on wars that achieved little. I'm not defending Bush 41 or 43.

and yet the Clinton's are corrupt and Obama care is even worse?

I get damning with faint praise, but I'm not hearing that here.


The New York Times (who's profits crashed 95% this past year incidentally) has just stated that Trump has a 95% chance of winning Pennsylvania. That boys & girls, is the ballgame. Trump is president. Hillary for prison.

Sovereign Court

Killer_GM wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Health care costs were skyrocketing before Obama took office as well. The problem is the ACA didn't really address increasing prices, it just mandated increased access.

Right now, it's already a "free market" for health care. There's lots of government involvement, but mostly it's subsidies which are reducing cost increases. Reducing government involvement is only going to let rates go up faster, while completely taking away access from probably 10-30 million people. In 4 years your rates will have continue to climb AND it might be possible for your provider to deny you coverage altogether again.

What cost Reducing are you talking about? Arizona premiums are going up over 100 % in 2017. Everyone's premiums are going thru the roof. Insurance companies are pulling out of Obamacare faster than a 3rd world banana republic, because they're losing hundreds of millions of dollars per year. It is unsustainable, without bleeding everyone who pays into the system to subsidize everyone who doesn't. I'm a healthcare professional. I see this every day.

I doubt they're losing anything, not making the projected profits is a more likely scenario. While single payer would be the best solution, the current system could be rectified with the public option, that is a insurance policy set up by the government at a competitive fixed rate.

Sovereign Court

Killer_GM wrote:


That's correct. Obama has spent more than 1 trillion dollars per year than the feds took in in income taxes. That money was borrowed, and has been added to the debt, which now stands at close to 20 trillion.

Bush took the debt from 6 trillion to 10 trillion. Totally unacceptable, and the Republicans who went along with it are also to blame.

Clinton had a surplus because of the dot.com boom on Wallstreet that masked the financial debacle he created. That debacle arrived the last year of his presidency and continued through the early years of the Bush 43 first presidency, which didn't change course.

And so how do you think Trump is going to fix that with his plans to take in less money?

Liberty's Edge

MeriDoc- wrote:
Keep BO, just how would that happen?

That was just a joke. A man can dream. Dream of a world with better options.


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Can't wait to see that majestic new wall!


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This isn't over..

I'm going to call Brexit 3.0 to be the next populism victory to arise in France and the entire European Union is going to unravel in an ugly uprise of far-right nationalist movements.


Guy Humual wrote:
Killer_GM wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Health care costs were skyrocketing before Obama took office as well. The problem is the ACA didn't really address increasing prices, it just mandated increased access.

Right now, it's already a "free market" for health care. There's lots of government involvement, but mostly it's subsidies which are reducing cost increases. Reducing government involvement is only going to let rates go up faster, while completely taking away access from probably 10-30 million people. In 4 years your rates will have continue to climb AND it might be possible for your provider to deny you coverage altogether again.

What cost Reducing are you talking about? Arizona premiums are going up over 100 % in 2017. Everyone's premiums are going thru the roof. Insurance companies are pulling out of Obamacare faster than a 3rd world banana republic, because they're losing hundreds of millions of dollars per year. It is unsustainable, without bleeding everyone who pays into the system to subsidize everyone who doesn't. I'm a healthcare professional. I see this every day.
I doubt they're losing anything, not making the projected profits is a more likely scenario. While single payer would be the best solution, the current system could be rectified with the public option, that is a insurance policy set up by the government at a competitive fixed rate.

Guy, single payer is a nightmare. I have family that lives in Norway and Sweden. I never cease to be amazed at the misguided romanticism with this lousy system. Norway expropriates/nationalizes industries, and hits its citizens up with a 60% federal income tax, plus a 20% value added tax, and they can barely pay the bills. And in 20 years from now, when the immigrant population in their country doubles or triples, they won't be able to do that. There is Zero chance that their system will work here in the USA. And are you ready to pay 60% of your income to the feds to have their crappy health care system, plus a 20 VAT on anything you buy? I think not. And as a healthcare provider, I'm not willing to take the paltry reimbursement rates that that type of a system gives to its healthcare providers.

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