The Harrowed Medium


Product Discussion


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Reposted from HERE.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Seventh Seal wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Alchemiac,

I'm sure they'll figure something to make a Harrow Medium come to life down the road. This is more for Horror than Harrow.

Maybe, although it does already exist and it's just locked up in a cupboard someplace. I'm just pointing out that the description seems to have changed which severely dropped my enthusiasm.
While I'm just as excited as you to see my little Harrow medium show up some day, I can pretty much guarantee it won't be in a Player Companion, simply due to its length compared to the length of a Player Companion.
I'm just saying it could be the *entire* Companion book, maybe add some archetypes for Occultist and Witch and Bard or something. That would be super hype.

Well... I think Mark has mentioned before that the Player Companion line of books do not have enough pages to hold his Harrow Medium.

So, if the Harrow medium itself won't fit, I doubt there would be any room to include some archetypes, too. At least, not in the same book.

Of course, things might've changed since then. OR I am misremembering. :p

It would be AWESOME to see the Harrow Medium sometime in the future...

<sigh>

I'd like to avoid derailing this thread about Harrowed medium if possible, so maybe start a new thread elsewhere? As a final tidbit, perhaps a worthy one for a starting post in that new thread, someone asked in an AMA for the Paizo GenCon Industry Insiders "Harrow Medium when?" And Wes Schneider (arguably one of the most influential people at the company in deciding what the answer to that question will be) responded "Any time now." Admittedly, that was news to me when he said it, as last I heard from within the company, it was still not a sure thing and was unlikely to be soon even if so. Let's continue discussion of Harrowed medium in another thread so this one can focus on Haunted Heroes...

OK, here's the thing...this medium archetype is in fact the original version of the class. We play-tested an abbreviated version as part of the Occult Adventures open play-test. A lot of people wanted to see the full version, but the designers realized it was too complex and long for release in that book.

So what is needed for this version to come to light? It is obviously too long for the regular Campaign Setting and Player Companion releases. So any suggestions on how we bring this wonderful idea to print?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Feros wrote:

Reposted from HERE.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Seventh Seal wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Alchemiac,

I'm sure they'll figure something to make a Harrow Medium come to life down the road. This is more for Horror than Harrow.

Maybe, although it does already exist and it's just locked up in a cupboard someplace. I'm just pointing out that the description seems to have changed which severely dropped my enthusiasm.
While I'm just as excited as you to see my little Harrow medium show up some day, I can pretty much guarantee it won't be in a Player Companion, simply due to its length compared to the length of a Player Companion.
I'm just saying it could be the *entire* Companion book, maybe add some archetypes for Occultist and Witch and Bard or something. That would be super hype.

Well... I think Mark has mentioned before that the Player Companion line of books do not have enough pages to hold his Harrow Medium.

So, if the Harrow medium itself won't fit, I doubt there would be any room to include some archetypes, too. At least, not in the same book.

Of course, things might've changed since then. OR I am misremembering. :p

It would be AWESOME to see the Harrow Medium sometime in the future...

<sigh>

I'd like to avoid derailing this thread about Harrowed medium if possible, so maybe start a new thread elsewhere? As a final tidbit, perhaps a worthy one for a starting post in that new thread, someone asked in an AMA for the Paizo GenCon Industry Insiders "Harrow Medium when?" And Wes Schneider (arguably one of the most influential people at the company in deciding what the answer to that question will be) responded "Any time now." Admittedly, that was news to me when he said it, as last I heard from within the company, it was
...

It could fit in a Campaign Setting (for reference, it's I believe slightly under 30 pages, so it won't fit in a PComp, it fits in a regular CS but takes a fairly major slice of it with those rules).


Barring that, and I know this would probably be really dumb from a business perspective, it'd be a damn nice perk if you guys ever did another Humble Bundle! ;D


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
It could fit in a Campaign Setting (for reference, it's I believe slightly under 30 pages, so it won't fit in a PComp, it fits in a regular CS but takes a fairly major slice of it with those rules).

True enough, but using up half of an entire Campaign Setting supplement for a single archetype? That is a lot of space used; it would have to be the central purpose of the supplement. What other material would fit in around it to round out the 64 pages?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Feros wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It could fit in a Campaign Setting (for reference, it's I believe slightly under 30 pages, so it won't fit in a PComp, it fits in a regular CS but takes a fairly major slice of it with those rules).
True enough, but using up half of an entire Campaign Setting supplement for a single archetype? That is a lot of space used; it would have to be the central purpose of the supplement. What other material would fit in around it to round out the 64 pages?

Probably it would be a book entirely on the Harrow. We had a PComp for that already, but not a CS.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hmmmm...so something like a Secrets of the Harrow? Perhaps dealing with cultural origins and occult connections? That could be very interesting....


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I am greatly heartened to hear "any time now"! It's a very cool class design. I've gotten my group pretty psyched about Harrow in general, so being able to have a class deeply tied to that would be a lot of fun for everyone.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

To be interesting for the largest audience, and keep true to the Setting line, the book should detail the spirits of the cards and the many ways in which they influence the Inner Sea. What each spirit can provide to the Harrowed Medium is but one of the tools at their disposal.

If the rules systems provided to support this can be easily reused for other systems of symbols such as astrology, so much the better

For example, a medium channeling the spirits of the various Hellknight orders sounds awesome


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The Harrowed Medium is huge because of its spirits. I wouldn't expect it to get anything from Paizo changing out all its spirits, since that would also need to take up tons of space. Third party and homebrew spirit sets should be pretty straightforward, though! Plus, with 54 spirits to choose from, it's likely you can find working combinations of spirits to represent what you want.

Paizo Employee Designer

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QuidEst wrote:
The Harrowed Medium is huge because of its spirits. I wouldn't expect it to get anything from Paizo changing out all its spirits, since that would also need to take up tons of space. Third party and homebrew spirit sets should be pretty straightforward, though! Plus, with 54 spirits to choose from, it's likely you can find working combinations of spirits to represent what you want.

For instance, in our playtest Skull and Shackles game where the Harrowed medium has all 54 spirits available (since I wrote them so wanted to playtest the other ones too), she sees her spirits in different ways and with different names, generally maritime. We also have some significant work towards some cool medium archetypes for the Harrowed medium by John Compton that we had to tell him to shelve because the class had changed after we asked for the archetypes, at least one of which was directly related to reflavoring in a way that I believe would probably work for the Order of the Godclaw, to go back to The Raven Black's example of Hellknight orders.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
The Harrowed Medium is huge because of its spirits. I wouldn't expect it to get anything from Paizo changing out all its spirits, since that would also need to take up tons of space. Third party and homebrew spirit sets should be pretty straightforward, though! Plus, with 54 spirits to choose from, it's likely you can find working combinations of spirits to represent what you want.
For instance, in our playtest Skull and Shackles game where the Harrowed medium has all 54 spirits available (since I wrote them so wanted to playtest the other ones too), she sees her spirits in different ways and with different names, generally maritime. We also have some significant work towards some cool medium archetypes for the Harrowed medium by John Compton that we had to tell him to shelve because the class had changed after we asked for the archetypes, at least one of which was directly related to reflavoring in a way that I believe would probably work for the Order of the Godclaw, to go back to The Raven Black's example of Hellknight orders.

Slams several credit cards and a money bag on the table

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I wouldn't mind seeing a campaign setting hardcover in the vein of Inner Sea Gods focusing on arcane and psychic casters of Golarion.

My wishlist for it would include
* The Harrowed medium.
* Expanded wood and void kineticist entries.
* Spells from previous campaign setting softcovers and hardcovers updated for the occult classes.


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Hello, this is my first time actually posting on the Paizo boards, although I read them often.

I just wanted to be another voice giving support for seeing the Harrowed Medium one day. When I first saw that class, I really liked how imaginative all the abilities were, as well as the way the different spirits could interact with each other. I could definitely see players giving each spirit its own persona as they acquired them through the story.

There's another player in my group of friends who also fell in love with the class. It's telling that we both love it so much that we plan to homebrew out the rest of the spirits, for use in an (eventual) Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign. I ran that campaign several years ago for a different group, and the way the harrow is threaded throughout the story resonated with me greatly. Knowing that, I would really like to take the Harrowed Medium through that campaign.

We're over a year out from playing that campaign, and if push came to shove, we would probably manage with a basic homebrewed version or the playtest version. But I can definitely say that the two of us would be more than happy to play the "real" version of the class. :)

I know you folks at Paizo take comments as a gauge for player interest, so hopefully my two cents (and my friend's) can make a difference. :)


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I would love to see this printed. While still a fan of the medium as printed, the harrow education version taps into such cool flavor that I have never stopped wanting it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Definitely wish this would be published.


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I honestly don't care what else you bundle the Harrow Medium with :P (Although a 64-page book that's completely Harrow themed sounds fantastic, and it'd be great to have a couple archetypes that tap into one specific Harrow spirit just to get some extra use out of them.)

I'm buying whatever text it happens to be in as soon as it's published, and I'm one of your customers that generally only buys APs.

Scarab Sages

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The Harrow Medium can't come soon enough. I missed out at Gencon; I didn't run into anyone on the staff to bug about the Harrow Medium.


As much as I would like to see them make something for a Harrowed Channeler (a name I am using for a homebrew archetype I am working on for this very idea) as some people have said before, the book itself could very well be an entire book on just this concept with all the different spirits that could be included.

I myself am trying to take a different approach and having the harrowed channeler start off with a harrow deck and access to just the core legends. As an ability, once per day, they would be able to unlock the legend around a single card in the harrow deck, changing it's abilities to one that has already been released (such as replacing the LE Intelligence card spirit for the spirit of Nex)

Thoughts?


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Since this is going to take up a HUGE amount of space in Secrets of the Harrow, design it so that the Harrow Spirits available to the Harrowed Medium also find application elsewhere, but only the Harrowed Medium and a reload of the Harrower prestige class (awesome concept but kludgy implementation) (and maybe some Harrow-themed Fey, Outsider, and/or Undead) can put everything together.

Scarab Sages

On a somewhat related note, I wish Paizo would put out a class book that bases things more on chance such as a gambler base class. Include the Harrowed Medium in that and let them select their class abilities through using the harrow deck each day.


BMovieMonster wrote:
On a somewhat related note, I wish Paizo would put out a class book that bases things more on chance such as a gambler base class. Include the Harrowed Medium in that and let them select their class abilities through using the harrow deck each day.

Ultimate Risk?


Brother Fen wrote:
BMovieMonster wrote:
On a somewhat related note, I wish Paizo would put out a class book that bases things more on chance such as a gambler base class. Include the Harrowed Medium in that and let them select their class abilities through using the harrow deck each day.
Ultimate Risk?

It'd be an interesting archetype for the Harrow Medium to have to choose its spirits based on Harrow readings, but to make it the default is kind of a jerk move for people who like to plan stuff.

Also, while a gambler class would be cool, feels more like an archetype or maybe even a feat tree, depending on what they'd get.

Still, though, I am hyped for this class to come out. With any luck, maybe sometime this year or early next, although don't think there's any exact information on time frame it'll be released.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd like more Harrow-based archetypes for other classes, more fate based spells, spells like the numerology series (though my GM probably doesn't), put all that together in a book with Harrowed medium.

...but I'd buy a book of just the Harrowed medium. :)


This would be an instant buy for me, because ever since my wife unexpectedly got a delux harrow deck for me at christmas, I've used it nearly any game it makes sense in, and even when it doesnt I try to play a harrow based character.

This would be an instant purchase from me in whatever form it came in.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just chiming in again several months later to say that I'm still waiting to give whatever amount of money to buy the book with the Harrowed Medium in it.


Would very much like to have this, but I believe Mr. Mark Seifter is already aware of my desire.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Has it been a quarter since my last poke at this topic? I know I brought it up in another thread a while back. Yes, put me in the "open wallet" category when it comes to this, even though I don't typically buy product anymore.


Mr. Mark Seifter,

A while ago we heard that was or might be some traction on the Harrowed Medium. Do you know of any updates in that regards?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I too wish to see the Harrowed Medium in action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Meh, i've moved on.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've been saving my quarterly check-in for PaizoCon. :-p


Always waiting


How about you just throw it in a book with the Harrow Character Generation method that I updated from your old Dragon article and call it a day ;)

I continue to assert no ownership of my update, and would be thrilled if it saw use.

But I stand by my statement from last year. I don't really care what else is in the book, I'll buy it immediately just for the Harrowed Medium.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I spoke with Mark about this at PaizoCon. He's pretty sure there will be blood when he asks again. The team is a bit tired of the question. I reminded him of my open wallet policy, but the honest truth here is that this is a limited interest option that eats an entire book practically and it will likely not fit into the already tight release cycle, despite already being content complete. It's painfully unlikely that anyone will ever get the final version because it was written on Paizo time, so it's Paizo property.


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Serisan wrote:
I spoke with Mark about this at PaizoCon. He's pretty sure there will be blood when he asks again. The team is a bit tired of the question. I reminded him of my open wallet policy, but the honest truth here is that this is a limited interest option that eats an entire book practically and it will likely not fit into the already tight release cycle, despite already being content complete. It's painfully unlikely that anyone will ever get the final version because it was written on Paizo time, so it's Paizo property.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like prime homebrew material, then. I've been mulling over writing it up, but held off for the "official" version.

But if Paizo doesn't want my money, then I won't waste any more time waiting to give it to them.

Thanks for trying, Mark!!! You know how much we'd have loved to see the original product.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Still loved what I saw of the playtest (Harrowed) Medium that I checked back on this after all this time.

You know, since 54 spirits is a giant chunk of space in a book, I would buy it with 6 spirits (one from each suit) and every product where they release a new spirit or two (like how they add bloodlines and mysteries in PC, CS, or APs).


Is the occult adventures playtest medium available anywhere still? I never got to read it and even if I don't have time to homebrew it, I definitely have players who would be waaay into it.

Though Mark will probably never bring it up again, I do think there is potential as a pack-in with an extra fancy harrow deck, or as a tier incentive for some bundle or similar campaign.


Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Augmented Empath Medium is pretty close in terms of complexity (though not the same flavor), having a whole book dedicated to it. Doesn't solve the problem but may stave you off.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Is the occult adventures playtest medium available anywhere still? I never got to read it and even if I don't have time to homebrew it, I definitely have players who would be waaay into it.

Though Mark will probably never bring it up again, I do think there is potential as a pack-in with an extra fancy harrow deck, or as a tier incentive for some bundle or similar campaign.

I went digging for it a while back and didn't have much success. I had it on an old hard drive, but I haven't tried digging out the old thing. I'd also love a copy if someone has it to share.

I'm still far more interested in buying the Harrowed Medium from Paizo, of course...

Edit: I'm an idiot. It wasn't on my old computer, it was on my phone's SD card.

I hope it's okay to post this? (Should be, I believe all these pieces are available on public sources, and the original download was free for public use.)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1t_cImakJn2oSRpEnluZUGcqVEaMEt_T2/view?usp= drivesdk

I'll start working on extrapolating a fan version this week/weekend.

After all, I have some experience with Harrow home brew :P


Medium and Shifter both need to take a mulligan on design pretty badly, so why not make a book with Unchained Medium and Unchained Shifter?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I wouldn't mind seeing an unchained fighter, either. Even if it's just made to include the advanced weapon/armor training options. If it's on the PRD, even better, since that lets us add new AAT/AWT options in any book.

So maybe something for a Pathfinder Unchained 2. They'd still need enough to fill out a full hardcover, though...

Sovereign Court

Is the production schedule between now and PF2e basically set in stone? If not, we absolutely need to campaign to get this book in there. If Pathfinder 1e concludes with no Harrowed Medium, I'll be a very sad person.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Agreed. I am actually playing a harrowed medium in my curse of the crimson throne AP. The GM and I worked out about ~8 spirit powers and spells, but I would love the see the powers Paizo came out with.

Not gonna lie, I would pay for a standalone pdf that had just the harrow medium rules in their current state if they released it.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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It's not set in stone, but it's limited, and since a big part of the problem with the Harrowed Medium is that it's so complex that it won't fit into a 32 page player's guide, and might not even fit into a 64 page Campaign Setting, it's kind of its own worst enemy there. Using an entire book of the few we've got left to support a single class isn't a great idea to me, even if said class were something as central as the cleric or wizard or rogue or fighter.

I'm pretty sure that we won't be releasing the Harrowed Medium in print, as a result. (And this is why I generally prefer not to release information about significantly-sized things we decide to cut from content—it sets unrealistic expectations.)

And since creating a PDF only product entails the exact same amount of work for us as would a print product, that's not an option either.

So from the dreaded Office of Expectation Management, do not expect the Harrowed Medium to see print for 1st edition Pathfinder... Sorry! :-(

Sovereign Court

I appreciate the harsh truths. At least now we know. Time to go drink away my sorrows.


James Jacobs wrote:

It's not set in stone, but it's limited, and since a big part of the problem with the Harrowed Medium is that it's so complex that it won't fit into a 32 page player's guide, and might not even fit into a 64 page Campaign Setting, it's kind of its own worst enemy there. Using an entire book of the few we've got left to support a single class isn't a great idea to me, even if said class were something as central as the cleric or wizard or rogue or fighter.

I'm pretty sure that we won't be releasing the Harrowed Medium in print, as a result. (And this is why I generally prefer not to release information about significantly-sized things we decide to cut from content—it sets unrealistic expectations.)

And since creating a PDF only product entails the exact same amount of work for us as would a print product, that's not an option either.

So from the dreaded Office of Expectation Management, do not expect the Harrowed Medium to see print for 1st edition Pathfinder... Sorry! :-(

Thanks for the official response.

But please indulge me in allowing me to say BOOOOOO!!!

I do understand. I do get it. But if there's no desire to release it as a product, I hope you'll consider releasing it as a blog post. There's still a lot of time left between now and next July, so I dearly hope you'll allow it to make it to our hands.

But the candid answer is appreciated no matter what.


Remembering this recently, and really wishing that we could have had this before 2E, hearing the official response, makes me pretty sad :< Especially as someone who isn't looking that forward to 2E, but was looking forward to this back during the Occult Adventures Playtest x.x

I do understand, I really do.... But it doesn't stop the hurt train from coming.


This will go down as one that got away in PF1. Maybe someone will make their own one day.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Are you aware of the Grimoire of Lost Souls?

You used to be able to buy a hardcopy version of it, but I see that you can still purchase the PDF.


Thanks for the recommendation. I'll do just that.

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