You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you.
The only thing the spell explicitly grants is responding to an attack that has targeted you. Before, during, etc. are up to the GM to adjudicate. You're still immune to any crits or whatever when you do use it.
Well, reasonably, if you cast it after you have been chopped in half it is a little too late. I can see the GM's point on this one.
Perhaps a Profession (soldier) check might give you some clue how good the attack is going to be before it is too late, but that seems week. Perhaps twisting another combat feat until it screams might work better. Sounds cumbersome though. I think I still back the GM on this.
Yeah, it's still pretty powerful. Especially against a big bad that has to move and only gets one attack on you, for example. You're negating his turn without missing your turn and only using a 1st level spell. Fair trade off.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To clarify, is your GM saying that you have to choose to cast the spell before you know if the attack hits or you have to tell your GM you are going to cast the spell before he physically rolls the dice (as opposed to just not reveling the number shown).
If it's before he tells you if it is a hit or miss, I would say yes.
If it is before he physically rolls... He needs to give you a chance to tell him if you are going to cast after he announces the attack.
WINDY ESCAPE
School transmutation [air]; Level bard 1, druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 immediate action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
I once gave a bloodrager NPC this spell, as one of the few 1st-level defensive spells on the bloodrager list. She, having a lot more hit points than spell slots, never used it, and I traded it out.
As the GM, I came to a different decision than your GM. Perhaps my view can persuade him. However, as I said, I never saw this tested in combat.
I interpreted it would be used after the attack roll and before the damage roll. Its duration was instantaneous, so it had to be made during the attack itself. I usually roll my d20 as I announce my attacks against the party. Moreover, this was an NPC so I knew the attack bonuses and would know whether the attack hit to moment I saw the result of the d20 roll, so I could not use the "after the attack roll is made but before the result is known" interval.
It made sense cinematically. The character would see the enemy sword swinging toward her, too well aimed to dodge, so she would immediately yell her spell word with a quick hand gesture and turn smokey to avoid it.
Windy Escape does not entirely avoid the attack. It gives only DR 10/magic and prevents poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effects. An attack that deals 20 damage would still hurt the character. Full damage from a +1 sword would still get through. And an attack that deals only 3 damage would be seen as mostly a waste of the spell. It seems best against sneak attacks. And those often don't have forewarning, so requiring casting the spell before the attack roll would mean not being able to use it against hidden or invisible rogues (already impossible while flatfooted, since it requires an immediate action).
Except the attack roll of an enemy NPC should be kept secret, no? Not that's it's being rolled but what the number on the die is.
There's way too much table variance to say that. If your group has no problem separating in game and out of game, everyone rolling in the open shouldn't be an issue.
|
Except the attack roll of an enemy NPC should be kept secret, no? Not that's it's being rolled but what the number on the die is.There's way too much table variance to say that. If your group has no problem separating in game and out of game, everyone rolling in the open shouldn't be an issue.
Granted, but waiting for the die to come up 20 to cast the spell isn't making a separation between player knowledge and character knowledge.
I would rule that you have to make the call after you have been told you have been targeted and before you know the result. As my table rolls in the open that would be before or during the dice roll.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Except the attack roll of an enemy NPC should be kept secret, no? Not that's it's being rolled but what the number on the die is.
Not really, actually. There are quite a few abilities that only function correctly if rolls made by any character are normally public knowledge. The Dual Cursed Oracle's Misfortune Revelation and the Fated Champion Skald's capstone, for instance, depend on every single attack roll die result being visible to the possessor of that ability in order to be useful at all against attacks.
We usually roll in the open. So I would let you choose to cast or not to cast after you see my d20. If you can guess the BAB of the enemy with some accuracy is up to you.
I tend to be more lenient since combat is often lethal, given high temporary damage bonuses, power attack, vital strike, enhanced crit range and so on. Escaping a murderous crit is as good a memory as having been cleaved in two, but probably a better one :)
immediate actions can be done at ANY time. if you dm needs official proof that u can do immediate actions AFTER you know that you have been hit point him to thisbloodrager archetype steelblood
Blood Deflection (Su): At 7th level, as an immediate action a steelblood can sacrifice a bloodrager spell slot to gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The deflection bonus lasts until the start of his next turn. This ability can be applied after an attack roll is made against the steelblood, allowing the steelblood to convert a hit into a miss if the deflection bonus is high enough. This ability replaces damage reduction.
so yes you can legally wait till it hits you before you cast windy escape
Err, that ability specifically calls it out, and therefore is worthless as an example to your cause. FWIW, I think Windy Escape and Stone Shield can both be used as long as it's before you roll damage, but that's my table variation, and a gray area of the rules.
If it came up at my table I'd allow it after the hit was known (and if it's a possible crit), but before damage was rolled.
I would expect lots of table variation.
At my own tables, I would allow them to know if the attack hits (including any crit confirmation) before deciding if they would use it. I would still require them to make the decision before damage was computed.
I would compare it to the first level Vanish spell in terms of power.
Negating a crit/sneak attack/poison after the die has been rolled is very powerful and not quite in line with other Level 1 abilities. This is made even more apparent when considering my table rolls in the open and my players pay attention to what hits and what doesn't - by the time this spell would come up they'd know whether it hits or not as soon as they see the roll. That's practically the same as allowing them to use it after the result is called but before damage.
For balance reasons I wouldn't allow this to be cast once the roll has been made. It's not like spellcasters have no other options if they decide it isn't worth the slot. The only thing this really affects is the crit negation, since you typically know if you're getting sneak attacked and poison lingers until used anyway, but the crit negation still functions. It's just harder to use.
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at ANY TIME—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
immediate actions can be done at ANY time. if you dm needs official proof that u can do immediate actions AFTER you know that you have been hit point him to this
bloodrager archetype steelblood
Blood Deflection (Su): At 7th level, as an immediate action a steelblood can sacrifice a bloodrager spell slot to gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The deflection bonus lasts until the start of his next turn. This ability can be applied after an attack roll is made against the steelblood, allowing the steelblood to convert a hit into a miss if the deflection bonus is high enough. This ability replaces damage reduction.
so yes you can legally wait till it hits you before you cast windy escape
Definitely.
It would not help at all since he have already been hit but he most sure can cast the spell.
There are other things that can turn a hit into a miss such as the Swashbuckler Opportune Parry.
Having rolled a crit confirmation just means that you aimed the attack near-perfectly. It doesn't mean that something can't intervene and prevent the attack from hitting.
Cancelled an overlong, tiresome point by point post.
Realized this is mostly rooted at pre-logic levels, and we are rationalizing animals.
Enjoy the way you play it, respect the way others do.
|
I wrote that spell, and I've always allowed it to turn a hit into a miss.
However, I'm hardly the final arbiter on the matter, and I think the way your GM runs it is also reasonable.
So...hopefully that helps?
Honestly, as the text of the spell say:
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
I did read it as "you respond to the attack, not to a hit or miss", so you would have to cast it when attacked, not when hit (those are 2 different things in the rules).
Discovering that your RAI was different is a bit of a surprise.
By the RAW of the text I stay of my opinion, it should be cast when you are attacked, not when you are hit.
|
My question is can you cast it while flat footed against an attack you don't know about.
I had a player get attacked from an invisible / hidden foe, in a non combat situation the player was in (walking around in a library).
He interjects the attack with i cast windy escape, after he had failed his perception checks and was reading a book.
I denied him and he got a little annoyed that i "took his abilities away"
From my side of it, you didn't know you were getting attacked until the sword was already halfway through your shoulder so how could you windy escape out of the way...
Schrodinger's mechanics aren't needed. Characters who aren't flat-footed will see an attack coming in. They will often know if it's going to land before it hits and they have a split-second to cast the spell. If they see a blow heading for their head or vitals, they'll have an idea that it's going to hurt more.
Allowing it after it's rolled also eliminates the problem I've seen where a GM is in the flow and keeping things moving and rolls the attack as he's saying the target and then announces the result. If there's no pause to speak, then the player cannot use the spell simply because of the GM's style. If the GM states everything and pauses, then it can slow down the game.
In PBP, you pretty much have to announce interrupts after the results come up or you triple the time it takes for each combat round.
So, my GM says that when I cast Windy Escape as an immediate action, that I have to do so before the attack has been rolled. It doesn't state anywhere in Windy Escape that this is true, or in the section for Immediate Actions (to my knowledge).
Is this RAW, or RAI?
Neither, this is an example of your GM making a house ruling which significantly weakens the spell. Considering the benefits of the spell; having to waste spell slots to protect yourself from attacks that would have missed makes the spell less than worthless. If I had to guess, the GM either misremembered the rule, or he was frustrated that you have access to a spell that messes up his plans somehow. Unless you are playing in PFS, the GM does have the right to make house rules. However if he holds to this ruling despite legitimate arguments that he shouldn't, then just don't use the spell anymore. If you are playing a spontaneous caster I suggest that you trade it out or retrain it at your first opportunity, because it's not worth having as your GM is requiring it be used.
From the PRD
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
Free, Swift, and Immediate actions may interrupt other actions (including attacks). The swashbuckler deed Opportune Parry and Riposte proves this, and provides and example of how an exception to the rule for interrupts must be worded
From the PRDAt 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack.... The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made.
Windy Escape lacks such a clause, therefore it can be cast in-between the attack and damage rolls except as noted in the spells description:
From the PRDYou cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
My question is can you cast it while flat footed against an attack you don't know about.
I had a player get attacked from an invisible / hidden foe, in a non combat situation the player was in (walking around in a library).
He interjects the attack with i cast windy escape, after he had failed his perception checks and was reading a book.
I denied him and he got a little annoyed that i "took his abilities away"
From my side of it, you didn't know you were getting attacked until the sword was already halfway through your shoulder so how could you windy escape out of the way...
The rules say explicitly that you cannot use immediate actions while flat-footed. It's under the definition of immediate action.
I wrote that spell, and I've always allowed it to turn a hit into a miss.
However, I'm hardly the final arbiter on the matter, and I think the way your GM runs it is also reasonable.
So...hopefully that helps?
Honestly, as the text of the spell say:
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you. You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.I did read it as "you respond to the attack, not to a hit or miss", so you would have to cast it when attacked, not when hit (those are 2 different things in the rules).
Discovering that your RAI was different is a bit of a surprise.
By the RAW of the text I stay of my opinion, it should be cast when you are attacked, not when you are hit.
That interpretation grinds the game to a halt. Or it invalidates most immediate actions. Because it takes a lot longer to go through this process:
DM: You are being attacked.Player: Okay, I do X.
DM: [rolls dice] Does a X hit you?
Player: y/n
than it does to just do the last 2 steps and then have then player decide to use whatever ability. Why? Because you have to pause and give the player time to react for each and every attack even though 90% of the time there will be nothing to wait for. And if you just roll the dice without giving any chance to use immediate actions then you have just made those abilities non-functional by your ruling.
Schrodinger's mechanics aren't needed. Characters who aren't flat-footed will see an attack coming in. They will often know if it's going to land before it hits and they have a split-second to cast the spell. If they see a blow heading for their head or vitals, they'll have an idea that it's going to hurt more.
Allowing it after it's rolled also eliminates the problem I've seen where a GM is in the flow and keeping things moving and rolls the attack as he's saying the target and then announces the result. If there's no pause to speak, then the player cannot use the spell simply because of the GM's style. If the GM states everything and pauses, then it can slow down the game.
In PBP, you pretty much have to announce interrupts after the results come up or you triple the time it takes for each combat round.
Do they also know it is going to hit with enough force to hurt? If they are wearing armor do they know it is going penetrate the armor? At the point it is determined you have been hit, it is because you are also taking damage.
The issue of the GMs rolling before players can react can be solved by real world player to GM interaction.
1) GMs should be aware of what characters might take defensive action against attacks made against them. And if not should roll back to allow characters to act instead of being a 'prick' about it saying "Sorry, to late for you".
2) A GM may roll and not announce whether it hit or not. The player would need to decide before they know they are hit. If you've been hit already, then you are playing schroedingers cat. If it is yet unknown if you've been hit, then you aren't.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I wrote that spell, and I've always allowed it to turn a hit into a miss.
Does the spell cause a hit to actually miss though?
Or does it just give "DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack" against that single attack?
If it does cause a hit to actually miss, then when does any of that verbiage come into play?
Sorry, it was late, I was sleepy. I should have been more clear. :)
I did not mean to suggest the spell actually causes the attack to miss. I think of that "decide after the roll is revealed" mechanic as "turning hits into misses"
That interpretation grinds the game to a halt. Or it invalidates most immediate actions. Because it takes a lot longer to go through this process:
DM: You are being attacked.
Player: Okay, I do X.
DM: [rolls dice] Does a X hit you?
Player: y/nthan it does to just do the last 2 steps and then have then player decide to use whatever ability. Why? Because you have to pause and give the player time to react for each and every attack even though 90% of the time there will be nothing to wait for. And if you just roll the dice without giving any chance to use immediate actions then you have just made those abilities non-functional by your ruling.
The rules don't really care how complicated it is to run at the table. (see Sacred Geometry). Though complicated rules do make for poor rule design and will often result in GM's not running them in strict adherence to the rules. The complication is not a reason to say the RAW reads one way or another, its just a reason to house rule it if the actual RAW (whatever that may be) is to much of an irritating issue to deal with.