I see what the confusion on my comment was now I was confused but I got it now. I allow one to craft items under that skill with JUST that feat. (without the caster magic item creation feats)
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YES. SUBMIT TO MY WILL, MORTALS. LET THE FEAT TREANT ENVELOP YOUR SOUL. REPEAT AFTER ME:FEAT TREES ARE GOOD. FEAT TREES ARE LIFE. I MUST FEED FEAT TREES.
Is a well built Fighter a Feat Treant? Is a poorly built Fighter Feat Shrubbery?
Are you made out of Mythic Whirlwind attack? Cause that's a ****ing feat tree.
Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Mythic Combat Expertise, Mythic Dodge, Mythic Mobility, Mythic Spring Attack, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, base attack bonus +4, 5th mythic tier.
I had too look it up...
literally almost all of your mythic feats.
Gosh, that "mythic feat", it's TERRIBLE!!! (holler)
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Wow that feat has to be crazy good for all the stuff you put into it!!!
When you use Whirlwind Attack as a full-round action, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against one foe, and one additional attack against every foe within reach. If you expend two uses of mythic power, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against every foe within reach.o-oh
It's okay cause the 4 feat's you need leading up to it are totally worth!
Whenever you use Combat Expertise, you gain an additional +2 dodge bonus to your armor class. You can expend one use of mythic power to negate the penalties on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks caused by using Combat Expertise for 1 minute.
Benefit: The bonus to AC from Dodge increases by 1. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to grant yourself an additional +10 dodge bonus to AC against one attack.
Benefit: Whenever you use Mobility, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC instead of the normal +4. In addition, once per round when an attack of opportunity provoked by your movement misses you, you may move 5 feet as a free action. This movement doesn't count against your total overall movement for the round, but it does provoke attacks of opportunity.
Benefit: When you use Spring Attack, you don't need to move at least 10 feet before making the first attack. If you expend one use of mythic power when you start a Spring Attack, the movement you make during the Spring Attack doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Ehh... maybe not
Mobility's almost ok although it would probably give the opponent another chance to swing as your movement is from a separate action, so you basically are giving your opponent a second shot to hit you.
Dodge's +1 AC isn't like bad... for a normal feat...
Mythic spring attack... no
Combat expertise... ew
-cries
Wow that feat has to be crazy good for all the stuff you put into it!!!
When you use Whirlwind Attack as a full-round action, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against one foe, and one additional attack against every foe within reach. If you expend two uses of mythic power, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against every foe within reach.o-oh
God the time it would take to calculate all that if you were facing 3 enemies! Or worse if you were dual-wielding weapons.
And you still can't more more than 5-feet.......lame
Path of War has ways for martials to get like 80 feet of reach. That feat becomes crazy good then.
Now, imagine if you were an enlarged character with Lunge dual wielding whips in a room full of enemies.Wow that feat has to be crazy good for all the stuff you put into it!!!
When you use Whirlwind Attack as a full-round action, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against one foe, and one additional attack against every foe within reach. If you expend two uses of mythic power, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against every foe within reach.o-ohGod the time it would take to calculate all that if you were facing 3 enemies! Or worse if you were dual-wielding weapons.
And you still can't more more than 5-feet.......lame
Oh God, the feats required.
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It's about 13 or so +5 mythic feats by my calculations:
Weapon Focus, Whip mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Two weapon fighting, Imp TWF, G TWF, Double Slice, Lunge, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise +5 mythic feats
So for the price of ONLY 130% of base feat resources, you can be a fireball.
It's about 13 or so +5 mythic feats by my calculations:
Weapon Focus, Whip mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Two weapon fighting, Imp TWF, G TWF, Double Slice, Lunge, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise +5 mythic feats
Don't forget Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip.
Assuming agile whips +5...
+5 (Weapon) , +18 (Dex, assuming you're maxing that stuff) , +6 (Weapon Training) , +9 (Weapon damage), +12 Piriah strike (+6 on offhand) = 50
So 50 damage in an aoe, a fireball on a failed save with no bells or whistles does 35. Seems pretty shit
It's about 13 or so +5 mythic feats by my calculations:
Weapon Focus, Whip mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Two weapon fighting, Imp TWF, G TWF, Double Slice, Lunge, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise +5 mythic feats
So for the price of ONLY 130% of base feat resources, you can be a fireball.
Fireball? That's no fireball. You have way more damage potential than a fireball, ignore energy resistances, deal special effects you may deal on attacks(such as negative levels with a Life drinker weapon), you can trip and do other combat manuvers to everyone in your reach (which can be as large as 80 ft), don't harm allies, ignore SR and other spell protections...
Don't get me wrong, CMD is a thing, but not in this case. That's a very solid feat.
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@Klara
The fact that after 18 feats and the proper equipment you have something that is with 3rd party supplements still comparable to a basic fireball is exactly why people talk about C/MD even in combat where they're closer.
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Don't get me wrong, CMD is a thing, but not in this case. That's a very solid feat.
It'd be a solid feat if it didn't have so many prerequisites. The opportunity cost is too damn high.
Edit:
It is, indirectly, a great demonstration of C/MD. The Fighter that spends all his Bonus Combat Feats on One Weird Trick is pretty much the definition of a One Trick Pony. Casters, on the other hand, try to minimize overlapping capabilities in their Spells Known/Prepared; incidentally that creates the thematic problem that the best casters are incoherent piles of good spells.
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And thus, the tiers are once more enforced, even completely by accident.
It is a thing of beauty to witness.
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I really need to sit down and learn Spheres of Power one of these days.
It's about 13 or so +5 mythic feats by my calculations:
Weapon Focus, Whip mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Two weapon fighting, Imp TWF, G TWF, Double Slice, Lunge, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise +5 mythic feats
So for the price of ONLY 130% of base feat resources, you can be a fireball.
Fireball? That's no fireball. You have way more damage potential than a fireball, ignore energy resistances, deal special effects you may deal on attacks(such as negative levels with a Life drinker weapon), you can trip and do other combat manuvers to everyone in your reach (which can be as large as 80 ft), don't harm allies, ignore SR and other spell protections...
Don't get me wrong, CMD is a thing, but not in this case. That's a very solid feat.
Thing is for far fewer feats you can achieve most of those things.
Bypassing SR / Resistance can be done with mythic or meta magic
Daze everything for 3 rounds
Do a crap-ton of damage with 2 fireballs (yay quicken)
Enlarge it for an 80 foot bust that you can place wherever you please.
It has the potential to be super powerful i agree, but it's circumstantial and it costs a massive number of your resources to do something that can be done for a lot cheaper by other classes.
Also Champions Sweeping strike does basically the same thing (albeit less damage potential) for a lot less cost.
Path of War has ways for martials to get like 80 feet of reach. That feat becomes crazy good then.
Oh? I have not seen that one yet. could you fill me in?
It's obtainable with polymorphs in pathifnder and whatnot (need a caster):
30' Natural Reach (Colossal tall, Polymorph Any object, form of dragon. This is sorta sketchy)
30' Reach Weapon (only natural reach is doubled)
5' Holy Reach
5' Holy Reach is doubled by Reach weapon
20' Combat Patrol
5' Longarm Bracers
5' Pliant Gloves
Long-arm (Spell) +5 Feet
= 100 Feet
Though combat patrol doesn't work for this intention so drop it and you get 80 foot reach.
And I believe improved whip mastery get's rid of the 'dead zone' associated with reach weapons
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I saw the same avatar and thought you were talking to yourself. :D
I saw the same avatar and thought you were talking to yourself. :D
Only sometimes :P
Can you get combat patrol and mythic whirlwind attack? I dont think you have enough feats
They share the Dodge and Mobility prereqs so it costs "only" 7 regular/combat feats and all 5 Mythic feats. Throw more feats on the fire if you want to do this with two weapons, and burn yet more feats if you want to do this with whips.
Though as Firewarrior44 pointed out, Combat Patrol doesn't work with Whirlwind Attack because each uses its own Full Round Action.
Path of War has ways for martials to get like 80 feet of reach. That feat becomes crazy good then.Oh? I have not seen that one yet. could you fill me in?
Apparently I was wrong. It does have that, but it is only applicable for attacks of opportunity. Best I could come up with for regular attacks is +15ft of free reach by the use of a Warder class, a feat, and some boosts and stances. Still, that already makes you a bigger AoE than a fireball, and it gets even better with things like Enlarge Person and other buffs.
It's obtainable with polymorphs in pathifnder and whatnot (need a caster):
30' Natural Reach (Colossal tall, Polymorph Any object, form of dragon. This is sorta sketchy)
30' Reach Weapon (only natural reach is doubled)
5' Holy Reach
5' Holy Reach is doubled by Reach weapon
20' Combat Patrol
5' Longarm Bracers
5' Pliant Gloves
Long-arm (Spell) +5 Feet
= 100 Feet
Though combat patrol doesn't work for this intention so drop it and you get 80 foot reach.
And I believe improved whip mastery get's rid of the 'dead zone' associated with reach weapons
well, that is both impressive and insane. I'd likely veto that HARD if a player brought that combo to my table OR let the players know that anything the players use, I can (and generally DO) use.
Apparently I was wrong. It does have that, but it is only applicable for attacks of opportunity. Best I could come up with for regular attacks is +15ft of free reach by the use of a Warder class, a feat, and some boosts and stances. Still, that already makes you a bigger AoE than a fireball, and it gets even better with things like Enlarge Person and other buffs.Path of War has ways for martials to get like 80 feet of reach. That feat becomes crazy good then.Oh? I have not seen that one yet. could you fill me in?
You mean like the stuff Firewarrior44 posted?
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FYI, the levels that the Tier list focuses on the most are levels 5-10. Very high levels are the part of the game that the Tier list cares the least about. What a Wizard can do at level 20 is virtually irrelevant to their tier ranking. What matters far, far more is what they can do at level 7.
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An all spellcaster party would be extremely powerful. Do you argue that druids, summoners are weak at level 1?
Also imo a wizard is significantly more powerful than a fighter at level 1. If you want to to prove you are right, we can make a new thread and I can show you the difference.
Not in a regular play, no. I've been running games for many different groups (I'm quite well reputed in my area) and although wizards can be extreamly potent even at low levels, it's the martial classes that take the most kills. Reason? Wizards have access to only a few spells at first level and they usually take up the role of battlefield control (they soften up enemies, they put them to sleep and use all soft of nasty tricks, so that fighters and other melee classes can quickly finish their enemies).
Without protection of their meatshields, they are nothing in games that demand skill and tactical thinking. For example, they can't clear dungeons in SWAT-style, because after 4-5 spells they run out of usability and if they don't clear dungeons in SWAT-style, then they will get overruned quickly, because monsters (especially intelligent humanoids) are not waiting patiently in their rooms for their guests to come and slaughter them.TPKs are common in my games, because new people come to me with their AP experience where every encounter is well-balanced, enemies are stupid and everything feels like in video game, where the storyline is tailored around the PCs. While my games are set in living, breathing worlds, filled with creatures that have their own desires and needs, other than being slaughtered by the adventuring party. So, visiting a cave that is a home of the orc tribe means that unless you are quiet and cautious, you will have very soon the entire tribe of orcs (minus the females, elderly and kids) going after you. Yet the same players still come to me, because of the difficulty, authenticity and freedom of my games.
BTW. Wizards are very important and powerful (I don't doubt that), but the entire group of them would be a suicide in old-school sandbox games (well, at least at first levels).
TBH I always wanted to have entire party of wizards, but then this art comes to my mind: http://i.imgur.com/lxIXOI6.jpg
Maybe it could work, but I bet it would require different approach.
A druid and cleric are pretty strong front liners imo.
Melee shaman is pretty good too and so is summoner's eidolon (although it is a bit of glass cannon). Once they get through first few levels they don't really have to worry about front liners, but I still believe that there always is and should be place for a pure melee class.
A 1st level wizard could possibly target HP directly, AC, touch AC, CMD, ability scores, Reflex, Fort, and Will.
So many options, but in most cases you will do 1d6 damage, unless, of course, you deliever coup de grace after putting to sleep a group of foes (if that works). Your average two-handed weapon fighter will deal pretty solid 1d12+7 or so each round, if he hits. At first level wizard can be killed with one unlucky hit (an arrow), this is not so common with fighters. You can easily start with around 20 or so AC and be almost immune to most melee foes of your level.
And... I also don't talk about group of fighters vs group of wizards, but rather try to abolish this absurd theory that at first levels group of casters would be more efficent than a group that is made of martial classes and casters. This way everyone can specialize in their area of expertise and there is no need for druid/cleric front liners. This is what people often forget about.
How does a fighter deal with a diminutive swarm? If you think that's unfair, you might want to read book 1 of Shattered Star.
He has his wizard-friend for that kind of job (unless, he or she is out of spells, but there are still other ways that don't require spells) and I advise you to read my posts.
I'm not talking about superiority of one class over the other:
I also don't talk about group of fighters vs group of wizards, but rather try to abolish this absurd theory that at first levels group of casters would be more efficent than a group that is made of martial classes and casters. This way everyone can specialize in their area of expertise and there is no need for druid/cleric front liners. This is what people often forget about.
How does my question imply I didn't read your post?
Also, when talking about tiers, you don't bring in your "other class friend." If you can't do it yourself then you fail that challenge.
I remember a hilarious experience of a fellow party member, playing a level 1 Gripple cleric with 20 ac, that was surrounded by three wolves and knocked prone (We failed perception checks and initiative rolls). The part 2HF (Archetype) cleaved two in half, and finished the last one the next round. I was a witch and had a wolf right next me. I put it to sleep and kindly waited for the Fighter to "put it to sleep."
A good campaign has s*** constantly hitting the fan (The same campaign had plenty of encounters exhausting outer resources) from level one. Challenging everyone as a party.
Honestly, I feel this discussion is moot now (Or rather always was, If I step back and look at the first 10 posts carefully). Most everyone believes balance is perfectly achieved in tiers 3/4(ish) (All 6th level caster and below. More zaney martials like Barbarians, current fighter) with tier 2 being okay as that just sounds like a well planned Oracle or Sorceress to me.
What were objectively the worst classes (Monk, Rogue and Fighter) in the game are capable of being "tier 3" if what Bob Bob Bob posted is the general criteria. At this point it's comparing everything to a Wizard. Which... why? A Wizard can be God. Though most "Gods" fear nothing more than an orc with a Falchion at level 1 hahah.
Though most "Gods" fear nothing more than an orc with a Falchion at level 1 hahah.
What can a level 1 wizard do about that orc? Hmm.
charm
color spray
sleep
vanish
One of those followed up with lose the trail.
Butterfly net and a torch. Every martial should have a butterfly net.
This is why tiers ignores gear, feats, and other decisions. The class itself doesn't lend you any favors for this scenario which is the whole point to tiers.