Justice League


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Might as well keep this one


Yeah keep posting here. It's not like it's a completely different movie. Just a different cut.

Liberty's Edge

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I heard this is the ending

Spoiler:
Darkseid takes out everyone. The Justice league is dead at His feet. Then from out of nowhere, the Wonder Twins come in and take out Darkseid.


Woo:
Ambush bug crumples everything up and tosses it in the trash before typing up a new ending


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Bob Newhart wakes up in bed and tells Suzanne Pleshette he had the strangest dream...


Looks good, I was having trouble telling the differences between the two films. Had to watch it in shifts. Way too long (and not good enough) for me to scrub both versions. I liked the additional background on Cyborg and Flash. I do love the Joker scene (and Jared Leto even though im the only one!)


Orville Redenbacher wrote:
I do love the Joker scene (and Jared Leto even though im the only one!)

I can't say I love Leto's interpretation, but it was a valid one and not deserving of the hate heaped on it. It's not the best, but it's not the worst. It's better than Phoenix' interpretation, at least.

Liberty's Edge

Watching it now. A little over halfway through. Like it so far. Alot of times, the color tone in scenes will change. Happening to anyone else?


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CapeCodRPGer wrote:
I heard this is the ending ** spoiler omitted **

Your thinking of the "Super friends" movie.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Speaking as someone who...
1) Who generally does not like Snyder's work
2) And especially loathed Batman vs Superman
3) But was mostly okay with Man of Steel including its Most Controversial Moment
4) And on the other hand tends to be fairly forgiving toward superhero movies as long as there's some modicum of consistent characterization, someone actually being heroic, and lots of flashy and fun action moments, and thus...
5) Liked the original release of Justice League pretty well, albeit with a few reservations....

I liked this pretty well, and thought it was overall better than the original cut. Tonally it was more consistent, and the expanded work on the Flash and Cyborg was much needed and important. Overall the action sequences were much better. I think a lot of the Aquaman stuff could have been cut or reduced in time, although I do like that it (however retroactively) set him up much better for his own film.

This is only a small portion of what I appreciated, but I was glad to see that a lot of the male gazey nonsense was removed from this cut (the weird random Wonder Woman butt shots in the original were distracting, and the faceplant was just silly). Given Snyder's not exactly a feminist auteur (see: Sucker Punch), this either says a lot about how far Whedon's fallen or how ridiculously backward the WB Executives are (possibly both).

This said, I think the majority of the epilogue section could have been done without. If it had ended with the superhero lineup shot and then a much shorter epilogue where we just see the heroes setting up the hall of justice and getting back to their lives, it would have been much better. The whole silly Batman's vision thing and the extended villain scenes did very little for me. Fortunately you can shut it off after the big finale and just call it done if you want (and those who like the extra stuff can stick around).

It is a shame both executive meddling and Snyder's very heartbreaking personal tragedy prevented some really good stuff from being included in the original version. The personal tragedy cannot have been prevented. The executive meddling... well, I've always thought the Warner Bros executives were their own greatest enemy, and a huge reason why the DCEU has not managed to have a global impact similar to the MCU (and mind you, Disney's execs are no saints, but they seem to encourage/trust the vision of their chosen directors and producers much more).

Dark Archive

The removal of the (mostly flat anyway) joke-y comments really made the movie more tonally consistent, which was a definite improvement. I *like* the humor in the Marvel movies, and remember fondly Whedon's snappy banter from Buffy or Firefly, so I do not get how the original Justice League humor was so terribly forced and awkward and unfunny.

Still, so very long, and too much of it, IMO, was ponderous telegraphed slo-mo action scenes (I felt like I was watching that second Riddick movie with the dude who literally telegraphed his moves through some time-shifting foresight / flashback nonsense, so you ended up seeing every kill three times...). And then the funereal vaguely pretentious moodiness. Music to set a scene is great. But I don't need to hear the entire song while Lois has a sad. This isn't a concert!

Seeing this Lois, and then watching the latest episode of Superman & Lois where she just straight up snaps at her dad and practically kicks him out of their house makes me like TV Lois with fire in her belly better than mopey movie Lois. :)

I liked Jared Leto's Joker in the Suicide Squad movie, but have no idea what purpose he served in this one. He talked at Batman some, but really didn't seem to be relevant to the scenario he was in. I definitely felt like parts were setup for future stories, like Ryan Choi and Martian Manhunter and Deathstroke, and didn't mind that (and wouldn't mind seeing some development of a Ryan Choi/Atom movie, for instance), but the Joker's part felt kind of tacked on, like the director was handed this shiny toy and couldn't resist whipping it out, even if the current discussion wasn't about that.


Not sure why I'm even posting. Since the beginning of the pandemic, I've mostly pulled back and kept my thoughts to myself, but for some reason I'm going to wade into the Snyder Cut conversation. At least I'm going to do it on the relatively friendly Paizo boards.

I had a rare opportunity yesterday to be alone in my house for the 24 hours, and that happened to coincide with the weekend of this release. I guess that is lucky for me.

I started the movie on HBOMax at noon, and finished around 6:00, taking time to make some popcorn on the stove between part 1 and 2, and take a bike ride in the nice weather between part 4 and 5. I'm the kind of person who can binge a whole season of Daredevil or Jessica Jones with just bathroom breaks, so that says something.

Thinking back to seeing the theatrical release of the Justice League: I dropped my girls off at their dance classes and drove to a nearby theater. Bought myself a bucket of popcorn and a vat of coke, and headed into the movie. Reclining seats and everything. I ended up in the cinema with just one other couple who were seated right in front of me. 3D, which I never pay for, but which was the only showing that fit my schedule. The movie was blurry and confusing. I watched all the way through the scene with Arthur before I asked the couple in front of me if they were having trouble seeing. They were. I left the theater to talk to the staff, and they fixed something. Now we could all see the movie.

During the movie, I'm vaguely entertained, but only because I've waited my whole life for this. As a huge Marvel fan, I'm thinking that this is an inferior product overall.

Fast forward to 2021. I'm watching the Snyder cut. Overall, I'd say I'm bored. This version is definitely better than the theatrical cut. The narrative makes more sense. The design of Steppenwolf is way more interesting. This version of Cyborg's story is better, and also Flash makes more sense. Both of these folks are way better. This release definitely benefits from the Wonder Woman movies, and the Aquaman movie, but if it had been released as intended, those would not have been in place.

Overall, I just can't forgive Snyder for his version of Batman or Superman. I say this as someone who loves Snyder's Watchmen. It is a great adaptation. It responds to the time in which it was released and manages to fit all of this complicated story into a three hour theatrical release.

But Snyder can't let Superman be Superman. I'm fine with a Superman story who is on a journey to become Superman, where Clark has to find his way in the world. But I hate that version of Clark letting his dad die when he could prevent it. More than that, I hate BvS thinking that it could capitalize on the Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman storylines. DKR only works if Batman is Batman, and the Death of Superman only works if Superman is Superman. At least in my old man mind. The pathos of DKR comes from the relationship between Batman and Clark, which doesn't exist in that movie. And the feelings from the death of Superman comes from him being the greatest hero in the world. The world in these movies has no reason to give a crap about Superman, so who cares if Doomsday kills him. I was there when Doomsday killed Superman. Doomsday cut his way through the heroes of Earth, and then Superman faced him, knowing he might die. It was impactful because we all knew who Superman was, and because the world he lived in knew it as well.

The Snyderverse world has no reason to care about Superman dying. So his death and resurrection have no weight. The newly formed Justice League in this movie bring Superman back because they think the forces that threaten them are afraid, not because they have any relationship with Superman.

Also, I'm not sure why we need to steal agency from Martha Kent and replace her with Martian Manhunter. And I'm not sure why we have Martian Manhunter cameo in the movie but not be involved in the battle vs. Steppenwolf or Darkseid. I guess Jonn loves Earth but not that much.

Overall, I'm not sure how a 3 hour commercially viable version of this film could have been successful if Snyder had been able to bring it to the screen. And I'm not going to be a fan of the world we are left with even after this 4 hour version.


Only thing I have to add on to what tumbler said Is I preferred the original ending fight to the newer one but appreciate that they wanted to give every character a chance to shine in that one instead of superman making a clean sweep of all the trouble. I got what tumbler meant about being bored. it was just a very long movie. I think it was better in a lot of ways though. And yeah they needed to build up to this one more and they crammed WAAAY to much into BVS.

Dark Archive

GM SuperTumbler wrote:
This version of Cyborg's story is better, and also Flash makes more sense. Both of these folks are way better.

Agreed. Ray Fisher's beef with Joss cutting so much of his character's scenes out of the movie makes more sense now, as Cyborg was way more integral here.

Quote:
Also, I'm not sure why we need to steal agency from Martha Kent and replace her with Martian Manhunter. And I'm not sure why we have Martian Manhunter cameo in the movie but not be involved in the battle vs. Steppenwolf or Darkseid. I guess Jonn loves Earth but not that much.

Did not like that bit at all. Meaningful Martha and Lois chat, and bam, it's not even her, which just robs it of it's meaningfulness entirely. And it does make J'ohn look kinda weird, in that he is available for empty promises after the fight, and pep talks to supporting characters before, but when the fight happens, he's... doing his laundry? Walking the dog? Stuck in traffic? What?

Chekov's gun, dude. Don't show us the gun if it's not actually gonna be useful to the story. (Or do so like was done with Ryan Choi, setting him up for future storytelling, but not begging any question of why the Atom didn't help out in the big final fight, because he wasn't 'super' yet and had a darn good reason!)

And Martian Manhunter is a big honkin' gun to leave lying on the table during the big fight! If it was Green Arrow or Black Canary, someone who literally had no way to get to Russia in time for the big finale, if they weren't already on the team and able to make the troop transport, sure, but someone like Manhunter (or Green Lantern) could just fly there under their own power!

"So, next time, I'll be there to help, Batman."

"Sure. Now who were you and why do I care? We obviously didn't need you *this* time, so, whatev. Don't let that cape flap you in the ass as you fly out of here."

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I took the Martian Manhunter scenes as an apology to fans from Zack Snyder about that time he made fun of Martian Manhunter and said something along the lines he was too lame to include in Justice League and only nerds knew who he was.

I didn't question his role in the plot. It's a Zack Snyder film, I know better than to think too hard about that kind of thing. Trying to make the plot points all connect and make sense will just give me a headache, so why bother? If it looks cool and he can get away with it, it will be there.

I don't feel like Martha got shafted... he had to have met Martha and discussed this with her to know what to say to Lois (okay maybe he read her mind but I'm going to say he didn't, because I'm the boss and I said so). Maybe he went in her stead because he read the script and knew some shit was gonna go down and wanted to keep her safe, because Martha is Precious.

I approve of the casting at any rate. I have just forgotten the actor's name as I sit here typing, but he played Boyd Langton in Dollhouse and I trust will make a great J'onn if we see him again.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I agree with the complaint about the shoe-horning in of Martian Manhunter stealing the emotional impact of the scene between Martha and Lois - particularly in a film where they have so little to do to begin with.

What the Snyder J’onn J’onzz made me realize is that a lot of the choices and beats Snyder throws into his movies are direct lifts - not from the comics - but from the television series. The third act magic Cavill Clark performs to send the Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zone in Man of Steel is almost exactly the same episode 22 magic Welling Clark performed to send the Kandorians back to the Phantom Zone in Season 9 of Smallville. The casting of a lanky brunette Barry Allen in the form of Ezra Miller happened after the casting of the lanky brunette Grant Gustin Barry Allen. Kiersey Clemons doesn’t match the physical type of the comics Iris West, but she does match Candace Patton who was cast in the role well prior to Justice League going into production. J’onn J’onzz is a secret military officer/government agent looking out for the world while keeping tabs on a Kryptonian? John Jones in the comics certainly wasn’t - but Director Hank Henshaw sure was on Supergirl

I’m more than willing to say that it’s parallel construction, but it happens so often and almost every time the Snyder version of it is done well after the CW version.


GM SuperTumbler wrote:
....The Snyderverse world has no reason to care about Superman dying. So his death and resurrection have no weight. The newly formed Justice League in this movie bring Superman back because they think the forces that threaten them are afraid, not because they have any relationship with Superman. ....

Seems like Batman cared, or had diers remorse or something.

All around better than the Whedon Cut. Pacing was good. Cyborg got the treatment he deserves, although MMH got Whedon's 'Cyborg treatment'. There were a couple of plot holes around The Flash but overall it was worth four hours of my life.


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Honestly though they should of just made 3 more movies before they made this one maybe also split BVS into 2 different movies. basically they jumped to endgame with out all the set up.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I honestly think the biggest mistake was doing BvS at all. There was almost nothing of value that came out of that movie; it was loaded with pretentious ponderousness, moments of smashing action figures together, and a whole bunch of set up for future films that actually was just totally unnecessary. While I disagree that killing Superman had no impact in this world (although oddly the one thing Whedon's cut did better was establish that impact), it was fairly meaningless knowing they did it in the second film we saw him in and we knew he wouldn't stay dead. It was all just time wasted.

Instead of BvS, introduce this world's Batman in a DKR-esque movie, without Superman. You can still hint at his reservations about Superman, and have Diana cameo, and hint at the existence of other supers. But let it focus on Batman and introduce this version of him properly in a world where is isn't primarily an antagonist (who then somehow just magically feels bad about what he consciously chose to do in the prior film).

Have the Wonder Woman movie. Have the Aquaman movie.

Then do Justice League with a Superman that is alive. Have an early scene where, as amazing as he is, Superman ends up in an early battle with Steppenwolf looking for humanity's Mother Box, and while he stalls Steppenwolf and he retreats temporarily, he realizes this is a threat even he can't deal with alone. Rather than have him be the lynchpin they have to do nonsense to get him to join, have him be the one who says "one is not strong enough, we have to be together" because that should be the kind of warm fuzzy thing Superman does. He tries to recruit the famous Batman, has to earn his trust, Batman leads him to Diana, Diana knows about Aquaman during researching Atlantean antiquities, they look up rumors of the Cyborg and Flash, and movie goes on as scheduled. AND it can be 1 hour shorter at least because we don't have to undo the completely senseless and purposeless death that happened in the prior movie.

Ah well. What might have been won't change what is.


They can always have Joel Schumacher return.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:
They can always have Joel Schumacher return.

That would require some form of real life motherbox and Kryptonian amniotic fluid.


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I think most Zach Snyder movies are at, or below, average movies. They look great, but the construction of the stories are never that good.

This movie definitely had flaws, but it was the best Zach Snyder movie I've ever seen. The biggest problem is that it's too long. It would have been better as an 8-part HBO series. Or a movie trilogy, with each movie covering one motherbox.

I found the movie sufficient quality to watch... and maybe in a few years I might watch it again. It wasn't good enough (and too long) to pull apart and try to review it in depth IMO. It was entertaining, and with the recent dearth of superhero movies, it was worth the time.


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I've been saying for years that movies are the wrong medium for Zack Snyder, on Netflix or HBO is the place for him, where he has 8-10 hours to set everything up.


I don't know If I would say that it was his best movie. I was actually a big fan of Watchman when it came out. one of the only movies I saw in theaters more then twice.


Yeah, im kind of bouncing around in my head if Snyder needs more run time than a movie or not. I mean, his ideas do build slowly, so would benefit from longer run time. However, the ideas are rarely complex enough to necessitate a full series...


Vidmaster7 wrote:

I don't know If I would say that it was his best movie. I was actually a big fan of Watchman when it came out. one of the only movies I saw in theaters more then twice.

It's subjective.

For me the acting in JL was better than WM. Not a large difference necessarily, but enough that (subjectively to me) it was noticeable.

Something about WM just felt empty to me. Hard to put my finger on it.


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For my money, Snyder's best movie bar none was that 2004 DAWN OF THE DEAD remake. That was a pretty solid movie.

become less and less a fan of WATCHMEN the more I watch it.

Still like Man of Steel as long as I dont view it as a Superman movie. It's a really solid first contact/alien invasion movie though.


Watchmen the movie was serviceable. I will agree that Dawn of the Dead was Snyder's best work.

Scarab Sages

I finally got around to watching the Snyder Cut of Justice League. I'd heard some folks say it was good, but I found it to be not much better than the theatrical release. Certainly not as good as people were telling me.

Granted, I've only watched about half of it, but I honestly can't see it getting any better. The portrayal of Darkseid in the flashback battle alone was horribly mischaracterized. He was leading his army, not even speaking (mostly grunting), and wielding a weapon. In my 30+ years of comic collecting, I can't recall him acting like that (unless they've been making him do that in recent years). It was kind of pathetic. The scene with Flash (who remains horribly miscast and poorly written), saving the young lady from the car crash was lame. The scenes with Vic Stone, showing the football game, his mother's death, him in cyber space, etc, seemed kind of pointless and out of place.

I'll probably finish watching, just for shits and giggles, but I really don't get the hype.


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The intro/opening credits of Watchmen (2009) were simply masterful.

And while I mostly liked the film, those opening three minutes were the highlight, and it was pretty much downhill from there.

I've seen Watchmen three times now, and I think I like it less and less upon successive viewings. What's completely clear is that while Snyder lovingly re-created many of the comic's setpieces, he fundamentally failed to understand the subtext of the comic and what Miller was trying to do with it. His failure to connect with the central premise/point of the original comic series is a fatal flaw of the film.

I haven't see JL: The Snyder Cut, and I honestly have no plans to do so. I can think of hundreds of other things I'd rather spend 4 hours doing.

Oh, and Snyder's Man of Steel enraged me. I've been a huge fan of Superman since I was a little kid, and Snyder's characterization completely missed freaking point of why he's such a beloved character.

Snyder's understanding of comics is completely superficial. He's great at mimicking the look of comics on the screen, but just does not understand subtext, nuance, or the history of these characters.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Haladir wrote:
Oh, and Snyder's Man of Steel enraged me. I've been a huge fan of Superman since I was a little kid, and Snyder's characterization completely missed freaking point of why he's such a beloved character.

I disagree with that entirely. I'm someone who has also been a fan of Superman since before I can remember, and I can recognize that while Snyder's Superman is certainly far afield of the Silver Age version of the character. If you came to Superman by way of John Byrne's "Man of Steel", Mark Waid's "Superman Birthright", Geoff John's "Secret Origin" or J. Michael Straczynski' s "Superman Earth One" there is plenty to recognize in that film from the version of the Metropolis Marvel that you grew to love.


All I know is we need a reset. Someone get the Flash to fix it!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Thomas Seitz wrote:
All I know is we need a reset. Someone get the Flash to fix it!

I don’t know that we need a single shared continuity. Look at the DC Animated offerings. We have three distinct ongoing continuities and tons of unconnected offerings and it works just fine.

If there is an audience for Snyder films alongside the world of The Batman, alongside the Arrowverse - I say lean into the multiverse and let the audiences get whatever versions they’re willing to pay for, for as long as they’re willing to pay for them.

Marvel has the Multiverse, but it’s DC’s schtick, they should use it to make all stories count.

Scarab Sages

So, I watched the second half of the Snyder Cut. It was slightly better than the first half, but only slightly. Darkseid was portrayed much better, closer to the comic book. The plot was perhaps, even more of a mess.

They started throwing in the Anti-Life Equation, and future evil Superman. It's like he was trying to build an overarching narrative (like Marvel), but his method seemed to be throwing plot points into a box, then shaking it around to see what might fall out.

And the revised ending was just nonsensical, and seemed pointless to me. Spoiler in case some who haven't seen it still want to...

Spoiler:
So, they lose, but then for....reasons....Flash runs really fast towards the spot where they lose. Again for....reasons....time reverses itself and they win. I was left asking myself...Why the f+!@ did they do that?

Anyway, seeing both the theatrical and Snyder cut, I can say I'm very happy this direction of the DC Cinematic Universe seems to be a dead end. I don't think it would have been very good. And I'm left with the sad realization that DC will likely never have a coherent, unified cinematic universe. At least not one that has mostly good (or at least decent) movies. I just don't think there's anyone who can pull it all together because (a) they don't exist, (b) are working for Disney already, or (c) would probably never be hired for such a position.


I've started watching the films in the DC Animated Movie Universe, and I've been thoroughly enjoying them.

I like them SO MUCH BETTER than any of the Snyderverse films.

Scarab Sages

Haladir wrote:

I've started watching the films in the DC Animated Movie Universe, and I've been thoroughly enjoying them.

I like them SO MUCH BETTER than any of the Snyderverse films.

I have a fairly large collection of the DC Animated films. Well more than half of them. Most of the ones I'm missing are many of the recent League and Batman films (especially the ones with that little asshat Damien). Still, I've enjoyed pretty much all the ones I own, and watch several of them multiple times. One of my favorites is Superman vs The Elite.

I also own the entire Batman Animated Series, the first (and only) season of the Green Lantern series, and the first two seasons of Batman Beyond.

Overall, DC's animated work is far superior.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aberzombie wrote:
** spoiler tag about ending **

Ending response:
In fairness, you did just describe the ending of Superman: The Movie as well. Superman loses, Lois dies and then for... reasons... Superman flies around the world really fast. For... reasons time reverses itself and Superman wins - saving Lois.

DC animated work has really been it's best thing compared to Marvel's fair to mediocre offerings (until Into the Spiderverse at least)

As for getting a live action coherent DC film universe? I think basically they just need to find someone that can hold their own and keep feet to the fire.

Scarab Sages

dirtypool wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
** spoiler tag about ending **

** spoiler omitted **

Indeed. When the movie first came out, as a wee lad I thought that was cool. These days...not so much. That's why I can't bring myself to watch it anymore.


Spoilers for a 43-year-old movie:
At the end of Superman: The Movie (1978), Superman doesn't reverse time over all the earth. He travels back in time himself. The earth spinning backwards effect was to show the audience he was experiencing backwards time flow. Director Richard Donner makes that clear in the director's commentary on the DVD.

I freaking love that movie. I've watched it dozens of times.

On a related note: Donner's original ending of Superman II was going to be that Zod, Ursa, and Nod destroy the Earth, and then Superman travels back in time to stop them.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Haladir wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

More on spoilers for 43-year-old movie:

First: the ending of Superman: The Movie is the intended ending of Superman II - subbed in for the as yet un-shot ending for Superman: The Movie because both films were being shot at the same time and Donner was off schedule and incredibly over budget. With the demand to get principle photography done ASAP, Donner pulled the already in post slingshot effect sequence and the already in post sky debate with Jor-El and Jonathan and the about to shoot Lois wreck sequence - added the death of Lois and culled together a new ending that could be shot in the two weeks he had left before needing to break for post and begin an assembly to make the promised release date.

Second, you are making a distinction without a difference. Yes Superman reverses time over all the Earth, he goes back in time thus reversing time for everyone except himself.

The earth spinning backward effect shows that Superman is experiencing time in reverse just like the street reforming effect shows that The Flash is experiencing time in reverse. Lois is experiencing the normal flow of time and is getting saved by a Superman who was not there the first time, just like Cyborg is experiencing the normal flow of time and is merged with the mother boxes by a Flash who was not there the first time.

In both instances only one character goes backward in time to change the outcome of the film.

Scarab Sages

Despite my previous post’s declaration, I am tempted to watch the old Superman again with the boy. He’s never seen it, and I’d be curious to see his reaction. Although, knowing him, he’d probably find it boring.

Dark Archive

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Haladir wrote:

I've started watching the films in the DC Animated Movie Universe, and I've been thoroughly enjoying them.

The Young Justice cartoon is about the best darn thing out there, IMO.


Young Justice is great.

A-zombie, I mean the worst that can happen is he falls asleep...

Scarab Sages

Set wrote:


The Young Justice cartoon is about the best darn thing out there, IMO.

I think that might be next on my list, after Titans.


So if get a chance, you guys might want to check out Film Theorist's latest Film Theory. It's not perfect, but it's interesting.

It's just a theory...

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