Justice League


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The day Marvel gets a proper Doctor Doom is the same day I get a proper Kang the Conqueror joining up with Thanos and Apocalypse that doesn't look like Ivan Ooze.

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Doomed Hero wrote:

MovieBob is a film and game critic who I like quite a bit. He really knows his nerd culture stuff regarding comics, games, RPGs and their history, and also knows film making and narrative structure inside and out. (I have a degree in theatre and a minor in history, so dramaturgy and cultural significance stuff is all very near and dear to my heart).

He has an ongoing series called Really That Good where he does reviews of culturally and historically important films and breaks down what makes them so great. It's a series of love letters to movies best described as "we all think this is awesome, so lets really analyze what makes it awesome so we might be able to make more awesome things like it." Most of them are 10 to 30 minutes long and really worth watching for any nerd movie fan. Here's the one for The Avengers. It's a great starting point for his stuff and provides a great comparison point for the DCU stuff.

He said he was never going to do a Really That Bad series because it felt too cynical and mean.

He broke his rule for Batman v. Superman. He broke it hard. It was originally going to be a one episode analysis, but according to his blog it just kept growing and growing as he did more and more research into the film.

In the end, it ended up being 3 parts, and is longer than the movie it critiques.

Here's Part 1

Part 2

The third one is still being made.

I posted all that because it's great stuff for anyone who really wants to delve into the nitty-gritty of how and why BvS was such a clusterf~%+, but also to give the context for This Review of Justice League, which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the film, and the whole franchise.

I concur, this is stellar stuff. Even if one likes BvS, it's worth the watch for the movie making side of things. History of making Superman movies in part 2 is really something. It kinda makes you more annoyed at BvS because on paper, most of the ideas in it are actually kinda great.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Set wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


...or, dare we say it, a **Hawkgirl** movie?

Oh heck yeah, I'd watch a Hawkgirl/woman movie way faster than a Hawkman movie, and not because of the gender thing, but because he's kind of a grumpy dick, and she brings a lot of the same stuff to the table without being quite so much of a curmudgeonly sourpuss.

She also plays better with groups, which makes her a more useful Bird of Prey / Justice Leaguer, IMO. He's a little too Guy Gardner, and while it's cool to showcase some inter-team drama, his attitudes tend to get exaggerated to the point that he, like Guy, comes across as a buffoon, and that doesn't really do him any favors.

He really was such a dick. Utterly lacking in comic book Hawkman's unrelenting badassery


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Doomed Hero wrote:

MovieBob is a film and game critic who I like quite a bit. He really knows his nerd culture stuff regarding comics, games, RPGs and their history, and also knows film making and narrative structure inside and out. (I have a degree in theatre and a minor in history, so dramaturgy and cultural significance stuff is all very near and dear to my heart).

He has an ongoing series called Really That Good where he does reviews of culturally and historically important films and breaks down what makes them so great. It's a series of love letters to movies best described as "we all think this is awesome, so lets really analyze what makes it awesome so we might be able to make more awesome things like it." Most of them are 10 to 30 minutes long and really worth watching for any nerd movie fan. Here's the one for The Avengers. It's a great starting point for his stuff and provides a great comparison point for the DCU stuff.

He said he was never going to do a Really That Bad series because it felt too cynical and mean.

He broke his rule for Batman v. Superman. He broke it hard. It was originally going to be a one episode analysis, but according to his blog it just kept growing and growing as he did more and more research into the film.

In the end, it ended up being 3 parts, and is longer than the movie it critiques.

Here's Part 1

Part 2

The third one is still being made.

I posted all that because it's great stuff for anyone who really wants to delve into the nitty-gritty of how and why BvS was such a clusterf#*@, but also to give the context for This Review of Justice League, which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the film, and the whole franchise.

I've been watching Moviebob for years now, but I just can't bring myself to watch this one. He can be insightful and funny... but he's also very petty at times.

And honestly... as much as I hated BvS... I watched his review of it, and agreed with him... but Really, Do I NEED to watch 3 hours of him bashing the movie? That's longer than it took to WATCH the movie!!


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Doomed Hero wrote:

MovieBob is a film and game critic who I like quite a bit. He really knows his nerd culture stuff regarding comics, games, RPGs and their history, and also knows film making and narrative structure inside and out. (I have a degree in theatre and a minor in history, so dramaturgy and cultural significance stuff is all very near and dear to my heart).

He has an ongoing series called Really That Good where he does reviews of culturally and historically important films and breaks down what makes them so great. It's a series of love letters to movies best described as "we all think this is awesome, so lets really analyze what makes it awesome so we might be able to make more awesome things like it." Most of them are 10 to 30 minutes long and really worth watching for any nerd movie fan. Here's the one for The Avengers. It's a great starting point for his stuff and provides a great comparison point for the DCU stuff.

He said he was never going to do a Really That Bad series because it felt too cynical and mean.

He broke his rule for Batman v. Superman. He broke it hard. It was originally going to be a one episode analysis, but according to his blog it just kept growing and growing as he did more and more research into the film.

In the end, it ended up being 3 parts, and is longer than the movie it critiques.

Here's Part 1

Part 2

The third one is still being made.

I posted all that because it's great stuff for anyone who really wants to delve into the nitty-gritty of how and why BvS was such a clusterf&!%, but also to give the context for This Review of Justice League, which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the film, and the whole franchise.

i hate movie bob.

He is a film version of comic book guy to me. Or worse, a parody of the film version of comic book guy. I take anything he says with a grain of salt.


phantom1592 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

MovieBob is a film and game critic who I like quite a bit. He really knows his nerd culture stuff regarding comics, games, RPGs and their history, and also knows film making and narrative structure inside and out. (I have a degree in theatre and a minor in history, so dramaturgy and cultural significance stuff is all very near and dear to my heart).

He has an ongoing series called Really That Good where he does reviews of culturally and historically important films and breaks down what makes them so great. It's a series of love letters to movies best described as "we all think this is awesome, so lets really analyze what makes it awesome so we might be able to make more awesome things like it." Most of them are 10 to 30 minutes long and really worth watching for any nerd movie fan. Here's the one for The Avengers. It's a great starting point for his stuff and provides a great comparison point for the DCU stuff.

He said he was never going to do a Really That Bad series because it felt too cynical and mean.

He broke his rule for Batman v. Superman. He broke it hard. It was originally going to be a one episode analysis, but according to his blog it just kept growing and growing as he did more and more research into the film.

In the end, it ended up being 3 parts, and is longer than the movie it critiques.

Here's Part 1

Part 2

The third one is still being made.

I posted all that because it's great stuff for anyone who really wants to delve into the nitty-gritty of how and why BvS was such a clusterf#*@, but also to give the context for This Review of Justice League, which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the film, and the whole franchise.

I've been watching Moviebob for years now, but I just can't bring myself to watch this...

also this.

He knows which side his bread is buttered on. He has his fanbase. Tells them what they want to hear. Takes no risks. Cant take him seriously.


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baron arem heshvaun wrote:
We still need a proper Dr. Victor Von Doom.

On a related note, we need a proper Reed Richards as well. I mean, Ioan Gruffudd was OK, but not great. You need someone with a bit of age to project Reed's wisdom. Reed Richards is not a 20-something (and teen Reed never happened). I'm thinking someone like Tom Cavanaugh (from "Ed" and "The Flash") as Reed Richards. He's old enough that he looks mature, but still young enough to handle the demands of a superhero role. Plus, he has a strong physical presence and experience spouting comic-book technobabble. If only CW would let him go...


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Tar,

Something tells me the CW will not release Wells to give us Reed Richards.

Another name that might do for Reed Richards, Colin Farrell maybe? Or maybe Adrien Brody?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

Not Colin Farell...too bad boy to play Reed. Sue is supposed to come across as out of Reed's league to most people. Maybe Patrick Wilson.


Well I mean he probably like to get away from the ghosts and demons he usually chases...

Silver Crusade

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Mark Thomas 66 wrote:
Not Colin Farell...too bad boy to play Reed. Sue is supposed to come across as out of Reed's league to most people. Maybe Patrick Wilson.

*taps chin*

John C McGinley?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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In his non-comedic mode like in The Rock...yeah he might work.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

*nods*

Aside from the Gary Sinise version and Hanna Barbara cartoons I know next to nothing about Reed.


Only things you need to know about Reed Richards: He's smart but not smart enough to realize dimensional gateways don't need to be kept in your basement. They need to be kept on a distant planet.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reed Richards is the sanitizing (in most iterations) of 'mad science'.

With about the same general results.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I'm with TarSpartan on Tom Cavanaugh as Reed Richards, if I ever have to tolerate Reed on a live action screen again (not a fan of the character himself, though I like the F4 and related characters in general; my favorite recent comic in their chunk of the Marvelverse was FF [Future Foundation] from several years ago was because it had all of what makes the F4 charming and no Reed). Love him (Cavanaugh) in the Flarrowverse but his role isn't as important as it used to be and he deserves a meaty role he can really show off his considerable acting chops in. Heck, I might like Reed if he played him.

On MovieBob, I appreciate the thoroughness of his research and his knowledge of film history and filmmaking, and I generally respect his opinions even if I don't agree with all of them.

That said, watching him rant for 3 hours on what was wrong with BvS I'm not sure I could do (I do like that his larger project focuses on what's GOOD).

I did watch one of his shorter, recent vids on the DCEU and it was pretty interesting. Definitely he has some worthwhile things to say, I think.

Back to topic (ish), one of the things MovieBob mentioned was the DC movies we'd probably definitely get: Aquaman (it's in the can), Wonder Woman 2 (obvs). He mentioned a couple others I don't remember.

But stuff like Suicide Squad 2, Gotham City Sirens, and Batgirl may be no go. This may be a good or bad thing.

I'd LOVE a Gotham City Sirens movie done RIGHT but unless they make some major creative team changes I wouldn't trust them to do it.

I'll also note Justice League HAS made money. Just not the amount they hoped for by now.


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DQ,

No they wanted Avengers 1 level of money and got Ant-man level of money. Not a great sign.

But eh.

Like I said before, why did they need a Mother box to bring back Superman? Wouldn't just tossing his body into the Sun have done it?

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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Its not okay to use "retarded" as a pejorative. R-Word website.


Stupid is still a word folks!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:
I'll also note Justice League HAS made money. Just not the amount they hoped for by now.

Has it though? The general thought is that in order for the film to start making an actual profit it has to pull in 2x it's Production & Marketing budget. Justice League was a $300 million dollar budget and we're still not certain if that includes the marketing. We know that the extensive reshoots ballooned the budget considerably which is why the $300 million number is bandied about.

So in order for it to legitimately make money, it would have to pull in a number past 600 million.

As of today, It hasn't made it past $500 million according to Boxofficemojo.com

Granted only the studio knows the actual numbers but there are people who have been doing these estimates for a long time. The bigger budget films are always tricky though.


Shin,

I assumed since it didn't go below 200 mil, it still was successful.


I think at this stage the math is that Justice league will be profitable at some point, even if that point is DVD sales time. Speaking of DVD sales, didn't DC make a bunch of extra money on BvS by releasing a special DVD cut of the movie?


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ShinHakkaider wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
I'll also note Justice League HAS made money. Just not the amount they hoped for by now.

Has it though? The general thought is that in order for the film to start making an actual profit it has to pull in 2x it's Production & Marketing budget. Justice League was a $300 million dollar budget and we're still not certain if that includes the marketing. We know that the extensive reshoots ballooned the budget considerably which is why the $300 million number is bandied about.

So in order for it to legitimately make money, it would have to pull in a number past 600 million.

As of today, It hasn't made it past $500 million according to Boxofficemojo.com

Granted only the studio knows the actual numbers but there are people who have been doing these estimates for a long time. The bigger budget films are always tricky though.

From what I've read online about the topic the above analysis seems to be correct. No one knows how much JL costed but the extimate is around 300 millions, and then you have to consider the fact WB don't get all the money from tickets sold and add the cost of global marketing which is pretty huge. As things stand JL could lose WB money (before Blue Rays and the likes are released at least). Not what they were expecting at all.

edit: An analysis


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Browman wrote:
I think at this stage the math is that Justice league will be profitable at some point, even if that point is DVD sales time. Speaking of DVD sales, didn't DC make a bunch of extra money on BvS by releasing a special DVD cut of the movie?

BvS was actually cheaper to make coming in around $250 million and opened stronger (166 million opening weekend vs JL's $94 million). It's total domestic pull was something like $380million with the Foreign receipts coming in at $542 million for a total of an $873 million theatrical run. So it made it's budget back BEFORE you take home video sales into account.

JL might make it's money back but considering it's budget and the drop in attendance over the past week or so? It'll be making it's money back on the deep end of home video sales and digital rentals.


As opposed to Ghost in the Shell, Shin...


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
As opposed to Ghost in the Shell, Shin...

YUP. THAT was a flop.


A deserved one though. JL is more of a case of high expectations and lower returns.


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Examples like Justice league critic reviews are one of the reasons I don't trust critics.

Dark Archive

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Examples like Justice league critic reviews are one of the reasons I don't trust critics.

These days, anyone with a computer can call themselves a critic, so there are tons of 'reviews' that boil down to A) raging fanboy proclaims how his beloved franchise can do no wrong and has once again knocked it out of the park or B) someone who doesn't like the basic premise, or anything about the genre, writes about how much he didn't like this particular example of something he doesn't like anyway or C) completely different fanboy rages about how they got everything wrong because something which hasn't been canon in the source material since the '80s anyway, is different in the film.

Some of my favorite movies were critical and / or financial failures. Other movies that were hugely successful, I can't stand. And then there are times when the critics agree that something sucks, or rocks, and I watch it, and I'm right there nodding along, 'Yeah, that sucked / rocked.' :)

There's no rhyme or reason to it. I just use reviews to spoil myself, because I love spoilers. :)


Set wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Examples like Justice league critic reviews are one of the reasons I don't trust critics.

These days, anyone with a computer can call themselves a critic, so there are tons of 'reviews' that boil down to A) raging fanboy proclaims how his beloved franchise can do no wrong and has once again knocked it out of the park or B) someone who doesn't like the basic premise, or anything about the genre, writes about how much he didn't like this particular example of something he doesn't like anyway or C) completely different fanboy rages about how they got everything wrong because something which hasn't been canon in the source material since the '80s anyway, is different in the film.

Some of my favorite movies were critical and / or financial failures. Other movies that were hugely successful, I can't stand. And then there are times when the critics agree that something sucks, or rocks, and I watch it, and I'm right there nodding along, 'Yeah, that sucked / rocked.' :)

There's no rhyme or reason to it. I just use reviews to spoil myself, because I love spoilers. :)

movie bob in a nutshell.


Thomas Seitz wrote:


Like I said before, why did they need a Mother box to bring back Superman? Wouldn't just tossing his body into the Sun have done it?

Unlike we the comic fans who know about Superman being powered by Earth sun. It may not be known to everyone else. Certainly not something I see Superman sharing with everyone. Possibly Lois Lane and his mother and not many other people.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Examples like Justice league critic reviews are one of the reasons I don't trust critics.

I have two, maybe three critics that I trust and only because their tastes and sensibilities hew very close to my own. So much so that even when I disagree with their assessment of a film I can see where they are coming from. Mostly I listen to friends and people I know and trust. It's also one of the reasons that if I can get into an early screening of a movie at the same time that critics do or even before I get to make up my own mind about a movie before it's tainted.

I remember when the fan screenings for THE AVENGERS were happening here in NYC about a week or two before release and several people who I knew had been in those screenings, none of which who knew each other and only two of which (I think) were actual comics fans all said that they couldn't wait for wide release so that they could see it again.

I was at a huge screening for WONDER WOMAN earlier this year and took my mom with me. We both enjoyed the movie, my mom moreso than I did. I had huge issues with the latter half of the film and don't really think it's the amazing movie that everyone else thinks it is. I just think it's better than BvS and Suicide Squad. But when the glowing reviews came out I was like "huh. *shrug* Okay.."


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The Thing From Another World wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:


Like I said before, why did they need a Mother box to bring back Superman? Wouldn't just tossing his body into the Sun have done it?
Unlike we the comic fans who know about Superman being powered by Earth sun. It may not be known to everyone else. Certainly not something I see Superman sharing with everyone. Possibly Lois Lane and his mother and not many other people.

Even Superman may not have known in the movieverse - at least not enough to have any idea that dumping his corpse into the sun would revive him instead of incinerating it.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Considering he was unconscious when the sun, unimpeded by the ozone layer helped him recover after tanking a nuke.


Yeah one would think they'd have figured out Superman is solar powered and thus try THAT approach before doing Mother box magic.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Yeah one would think they'd have figured out Superman is solar powered and thus try THAT approach before doing Mother box magic.

Again, "solar-powered" doesn't necessarily imply "will be raised from the dead if exposed to the sun".

That's a huge stretch.

Especially if you're going to go so far as tossing his body into the Sun to test it.


Eh. Considering how much solar stuff affects him, you'd think otherwise...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here's a question- in the DCEU, who'd be capable of getting Supes to the sun within our lifetime? Wonder Woman doesn't fly. Nor do Aquaman, Flash, or Batman. Cyborg might have been able to get within a certain distance before the heat of the star vaped him, but he wasn't exactly sure he could trust himself at that point.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

One of the premises of the recent "Crisis on Earth X" TV crossover event is that the "Supergirl" from Earth X has absorbed too much yellow sun radiation and is in the process of "going nova". So dropping Superman's body into the sun, even if it could be done, might not help. In fact, it might cause the sun to go nova. That would not be a good thing.

Silver Crusade

ShinHakkaider wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Examples like Justice league critic reviews are one of the reasons I don't trust critics.
I have two, maybe three critics that I trust "

A long time ago when I was a kid there was a critic in TV Guide who was absolutely PERFECT for me. Never, ever, ever missed.

Any movie that sounded interesting to me from the blurb I just checked that critic. And flipped her review 180 degrees.

She thought it was 5 stars, I'd hate it. She hated it, I'd love it. If it was meh then it was meh.

I miss that critic :-) :-)


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Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

Silver Crusade

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Zhangar wrote:
Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

Outlander (2008) succeeded in this I believe.


Zhangar wrote:

Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

god.

I hate Ryan Reynolds.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Of course you do

Silver Crusade

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Freehold DM wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

god.

I hate Ryan Reynolds.

Alton Brown Hate or Whedon Hate?


Rysky wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

god.

I hate Ryan Reynolds.

Alton Brown Hate or Whedon Hate?

this is a new flavor of hate, mixed in with the hate I have for deadpool.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Freehold DM wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

god.

I hate Ryan Reynolds.

Alton Brown Hate or Whedon Hate?
this is a new flavor of hate, mixed in with the hate I have for deadpool.

Ohhhhhhh.

Did you hate him before Deadpool?


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

god.

I hate Ryan Reynolds.

We got a Canadaphobe over here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Keep in mind that a movie being bad in various ways doesn't preclude it from being enjoyable.

That's pretty much the essence of B movies right there.

Now, if you spent 100s of millions and still made a B movie when you trying for better, that's kind of embarrassing, but not a true failure.

Far worse is when you deliberately shoot for making a B movie, and fail to deliver. (Hi Green Lantern!)

god.

I hate Ryan Reynolds.

Alton Brown Hate or Whedon Hate?
this is a new flavor of hate, mixed in with the hate I have for deadpool.

Ohhhhhhh.

Did you hate him before Deadpool?

from the moment he ruined my favorite super hero, yes.


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Freehold, your opinions of things are baffling to me.

I'm genuinely curious, is there anything that is generally adored in nerd culture that you do like?

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