Hi,
What are efficient ways to either debuff a party with particular high set of saving throws, how to circumvent those in a way that keeps it interesting?
Think of spells that allow no saving throw, like waves of fatigue/exhaustion.
But debuff spells that make it harder to save (like a witch) tactics or feats or items that help in debuffing also help
Thoughts, suggestions?
Thoughts, suggestions?
I'm going to assume you need help debuffing an over-powered party you're running? Or just something to make it interesting.
Introduce a friendly Witch NPC, try to tie her into the story or make them trust her (of course this can all go awry and turn into a fight right away with sense motive checks etc)
THEN, have the Witch suggest scarring, so that she may cast her healing Hex and fortunes on them from any distance and help the flow of the upcoming boss (also a debuff themed boss maybe?)
Then BAM, betrayal, instead of Fortune it's Misfortune, instant roll twice on everything and take the worst result. However once they're affected the debuffs can be placed and as long as the Witch cackles while flying near them to avoid fighting directly then you've got them stuck with debuffs considering the first Misfortune will likely be willingly accepted.
Depending on the situation, obscuring mist (etc.) or silent image (etc.) may be enough to set up an ambush or provide cover, or to generally confuse the party.
Intimidating generally bypasses saves and shaken debuffs their future saves with a -2.
What sort of level are we talking about here?
Well lets say enemy combatant spells they no longer feel bothered with.
So spells that still have a partial effect even if they make a save... Instead of baddies just wasting round after round doing nothing effectively.
Like Tar Pool or Icy Prison
Stuff like that. Also done a Horrid Wilting alteady (cause its a Fortitude save so Evasion doesn't work against it)
Not out to flatout hoze them, just keep it interesting instead of a roll over.
That Witch betrayal ia a nasty one but would be hard to pull off. The monk has snake style and as such has her sense motive maxed out.
Level of the party is 14, soon to be 15
Well lets say enemy combatant spells they no longer feel bothered with.
So spells that still have a partial effect even if they make a save... Instead of baddies just wasting round after round doing nothing effectively.
Like Tar Pool or Icy Prison
Stuff like that. Also done a Horrid Wilting alteady (cause its a Fortitude save so Evasion doesn't work against it)
Not out to flatout hoze them, just keep it interesting instead of a roll over.
That Witch betrayal ia a nasty one but would be hard to pull off. The monk has snake style and as such has her sense motive maxed out.
Level of the party is 14, soon to be 15
Hot damn, no wonder you're having a hard time. I personally haven't ever proceeded past 7-8th level.
I do love the Witch betrayal style, because that's part of the reason why I haven't made it past 7-8th yet. My main character in our at home campaign is a Witch with a curse that forces an alignment shift to a random alignment everytime I regain consciousness whether from near death, sleep etc
I tended to land on the Chaotic Evil side of things a lot (we rolled a D10 and 1-9 on the spectrum starting at 1=LG, through 9=CE, 10 was DM's choice)
I end up stalling the party a lot, but they don't know about the condition, and they also don't know I'm the one stalling them. Whenever we tell them to roll twice they assume it's for Fortune and when the DM says, damn you still didn't make it they just think the enemy is tough as hell.
Well another way I've been going about it is instead of debuffing the party I let the baddies buff their own numbers instead
If Slow won't work, just cast haste instead. Casting Displacement or Mirror Image helps too.
I suppose I just shouldn't have let them use point buy Epic 2 years back when the campaign started.
Party loot isn't monty haul but some just have very optimised builds that synergise well with eachother.
And its nice to be able to have them worry again once in a while. It should be challenging, not be another stroll through the park.
Saves? I know of an efficient way of doing that. You will need a melee arcane caster though.
A nice way to cause debuffs is to combine riving strike (-2 to saves against spells when hit with arcane strike; pretty sure the timing means you can't help your own spells, but the spells of others...), and add on cornugon smash (free action intimidation when you hit with power attack; -2 to saves from the condition).
It is a nice, comfortable -4 to saves vs. spells. Have a melee bard to buff your melee minions, and have him debuff with his attacks to set up for another caster. Simple way to make a 'meh' encounter much tougher.
Marcella>> A hag coven with mook follower-cult wannabes in the style of Tuckers Kobolds but then with Ill Omen wands... Hrrrmmm.
Nasty. Anything else on the suggestions of spells with saving throw none and still partial conditions or effects if a save is made?
Also could go Summoner but Barbarian has Spell Sunder (although not improved Sunder feat so trying it in combat would yield an AoO against him and any damage is brought along on the CMB roll as a subsequent penalty. Might just work as well.
Food for thought.
Lemeres: good suggestion thanks.
Don't target the saves. There are other methods to debuff. Intimidate checks from Cornugon Smash, Dazzling Display or Killing Flourish dont care if the saves are sky high. Likewise Dirty Trick targets CMD instead, and can make targets blind, sickened and shaken. Dirty Trick Master can turn dazzled into dazed. A team of a witch, thug rogue, bounty hunter slayer, and barbarian can really cause problems if their tactics are aligned.
@Tim: good feedback thanks
Question, one of the well known debuff spells is of course Enervation. Particularly cause it allows no save.
What happens when someone with Death Ward on them gets hit with an enervation spell?
Just wouldn't work or?
Hi,
What are efficient ways to either debuff a party with particular high set of saving throws, how to circumvent those in a way that keeps it interesting?
Think of spells that allow no saving throw, like waves of fatigue/exhaustion.
But debuff spells that make it harder to save (like a witch) tactics or feats or items that help in debuffing also help
Thoughts, suggestions?
Ill Omen gives no save, forces you to roll d20s twice and take the low. They can mitigate by burning a move action, though. In which case you took their move actions away for a round or two, not too bad.
Prediction of Failure makes you shaken and sickened (-4 on saves and other stuff) for 1/rd per level even if you make the save.
Ego Whip can give a -1 to -5 penalty to Will saves for one round even if they make hteir save. If they don't, it lasts 1rd/level and also leaves them staggered for a lesser amount of time.
There's lots of spells that make you sickened or shaken for one round even if you make a save.
Death ward makes you immune to negative energy. It's a hard counter to enervation.
Some useful effects: silence can be cast on an item or an ally rather than a high-save PC. It still affects the area about the target. Darkness & similar can work the same way. Sirocco fatigues anyone damaged, and rime spell + a cold damage spell entangles anyone damaged - even if the saves are made, assuming the target doesn't have evasion or sufficient energy resistance. Various touch and occasionally ranged touch spells have effects not influenced by saves - frigid touch staggers for a round, spit venom blinds for a round are the ones that come to mind. There's an 8th level spell, frightful aspect, which is ridiculously effective against melee types not immune to fear.
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Yes, deathward prevents enervation and energydrain, and of course orb of the void.
Debuffing parties...the starting point is to know what kind of party it is. If they are heavily dependent on buffs themselves, dispelling will work fine without touching the saves.
If the problem is their high stats, remember to let some of the bad guys have them too. It tacks on +1 to +3 on their DCs.
If the mobs don't have stat buff items, let them have at least spell buffs...there are another +2 DC and it is but 2nd level.
High level spells have debuffing side effects. There is polar ray which also drains 1d6 DEX. Polar midnight is another nasty one, although the drain can be saved against. It still ruins the day for many martials with its icy prison effect.
A modified cloudkill can be nasty too, especially if the bad guys are protected by lifebubble (or are undead).
Ray of enfeeblement will have an effect, even if saved against. Due to its level, it can be easily modified too. Same goes for the ray of exhaustion...fatigued is better than no debuff at all.
Mindfog will penalize will saves by -10, if it is not saved against. A specialist using persistent spell might catch one or two of the group with it.
Irresistible dance lasts but one round if saved against, but that is enough to place a nasty spell or two with a reflex save.
Antimagic field is somewhat tough, especially as a surprise, but it will debuff everyone inside completely. Imagine a caster possessing a monster with nasty grappling or poison attacks and casting AMF to get his "pet" well protected. Many monsters are not hampered by an AMF (watch for those (ex) abilities and high natural armor bonus), but PCs usually are. If they cannot get out of an AMF at once, they are toast. The bad guys are the ones who design their lairs, so a defense based on AMF would most likely have a fitting architecture, too.
The curse domain (sub of luck) grants a -2 debuff without save. The other subdomain (fate) allows to mess with a d20 roll of the players (re-roll and take worse). Won't happen often, but once is enough to shake players up.
A tried and true method of messing with powerful parties is to use a large number of NPCs and therefore a large number of saves. At first people may think its useless to pit eight 8th level NPCs against a party of 15th level - but if they happen to be eight sorcerers that is a threat, even if people save all the time. The 1/2 effects will eat most of them up, except those with evasion, which probably wont be that many.
As someone said, witches are also good, as are effects that target CMD, which is weak on everyone except martials.
Vatras... Great advice and pointers. Thanks.
Cursed magic items typically grant no save and a particularly powerful one can be a pain to get rid of
Enervation :D
Soul drinker
Dispel magic greater
Multiple Persistent(metamagic) aoe debuffs. Somebody will roll low. Dazzling fireball, rime cone of cold, and slow are possible to cast by 9th lv wizards
Buffing your own guys is equivalent of debuffing the party in most cases
Penalties from the battlefield. Fighting uphill, difficult terrain, debuff traps, snowstorms, deeper darkness, buffeting winds.... These tricks might only work once each but then again they need only work once
Combat Maneuvers. Steal and Sunder can both lower their saving throws. Trip, Grapple, and Disarm can seriously hurt defense/offense
Alcohol. Most adventuring parties go to the bar. They get drunk and their will saves drop dramatically......
Succubis profane gift withdrawal
Custom material is easy enough to make
Ray of exhaustion not only fatigues on a save, if it hits somebody who is fatigued then they go to exhausted even if they save. So two spellcasters per party member... still has to hit their touch, though.
Frostbite no-save fatigues.
A barbarian bad guy can spell sunder or savage dirty trick, both backed up with strength surge. And if players can pick up items enabling rage cycling, why not NPCs?
If you want to force a bunch of people to make saves at once then negative variant channeling is your friend. Rulership (daze) and Wine (nauseate) are the nastiest, but Envy can also be hilarious (forces victim to attempt a steal combat maneuver on adjacent enemy). Clerics can buff their DCs pretty high if they try.
Order of the Staff cavaliers debuff saving throws when they hit the target of their challenge. Some 12th level cavalier minions would give -4 penalties, but they do need to hit.
Oh, a thug rogue can forego one die of sneak attack damage to sicken somebody that they hit. No save.
Of course, it might be harder to actually land a sneak attack with a rogue than to just overpower their saves.
So I have two builds that are similar but both are good at debuffing to set the stage for full casters to land Save or Suck/Save or Die spells.
The first one Bloodrager, it's compatible with more games than the second build because the second is a Antipaladin. Now, with Antipaladin you can go Tyrant archetype which gets you to lawful evil, and makes it much easier to play nicely with the rest of your party but still might not fit your party well.
Bloodrager is a intimidation build, so max intimidate. Feats you need are Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, Hurtful, Intimidating Prowess (not required, but lets you add strength to Intimidate), Arcane Strike, Blooded Arcane Strike, and Riving Strike, Raging Vitality (only recommended to avoid sudden death if your rage ends due to being knocked out). You need to get the Cruel weapon enhancement on your weapon.
How does it work?
Cornugon Smash allows for a free intimidate when you hit someone with a successful power attack. Hurtful allows a free attack as a swift action when you successfully intimidate. Assuming your second attack hits, the Cruel enhancement kicks in and the target has now been both Shaken and Sickened, -4 to saves, attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and -2 on weapon damage.
A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
Sickened - The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Riving Strike gives another -2 penalty to saves when you damage a creature while using Arcane Strike, which is normally a swift action (until you get Blooded Arcane Strike). So you get a -6 penalty to saves in two rounds (one once you can get Blooded Arcane Strike) along with some other penalties.
Antipaladin build works similarly. You're still going to want Power Attack, Hurtful, Cornugon Smash. You're going to want Conductive and Cruel weapon enhancements. Same thing, you hit with Power Attack, Intimidate, Shaken, Hurtful kicks in, hit again, Sickened. At 8th level you get aura of despair which is a -2 to all saves. So currently at a -6 to saves. On the next attack you make you use the conductive quality to deliver your Touch of Corruption with the Cursed cruelty. This allows you to bestow curse (which is now more likely to land thanks to your -6 penalty you've just applied) and you curse them with another -4 penalty to save, attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. It also has the benefit of things that would otherwise be immune to Intimidate are not immune thanks to Aura of Cowardice.
So this build ends up being able to cause -10 saves, -8 to attack, skill checks, and ability checks.
If you're dogpiling them with mooks you could also take a look at the Coven hex. Instead of ten easily saved spells you can do one spell at +9 CL. It also could make for some fun storytelling as the mooks gradually power up the death star via aid another.
If you're up for some trickeration you could hit them with hollow heroism or greater hollow heroism from a "friendly" witch.
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All good ideas, like your build Claxon, thanks
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If you're dogpiling them with mooks you could also take a look at the Coven hex. Instead of ten easily saved spells you can do one spell at +9 CL. It also could make for some fun storytelling as the mooks gradually power up the death star via aid another.
If you're up for some trickeration you could hit them with hollow heroism or greater hollow heroism from a "friendly" witch.
So, it's worth noting that caster level is really that important for landing the spell. It will help you get over spell resistance, its good for increasing the damage of damage dealing spells. However, caster level doesn't affect save DCs.
Marcella>> A hag coven with mook follower-cult wannabes in the style of Tuckers Kobolds but then with Ill Omen wands... Hrrrmmm.
Nasty. Anything else on the suggestions of spells with saving throw none and still partial conditions or effects if a save is made?
Yes. Each of said mooks could also hold a scroll with 5 "Litany of Weakness" spells on it, since they allow no saving throws and are cast as swift actions. (I suggest scrolls instead of wands, since I believe the latter require standard actions at a minimum, even for swift-action spells. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on that.) That spell requires an anti-paladin/inquisitor level (or a lucky UMD roll), which seems an odd combination with a witch level, but it does mean each mook can hit a PC with two saving-throw-less spells in just one round. "Litany of Sloth" is swift, too, but allows a Will roll.
As Plausible Pseudonym points out, a target can mitigate an Ill Omen spell with a move action, so you'd want to have at least twice (or thrice?) as many mooks as PCs. The description is unclear about whether a PC can use a 2nd move action to nullify a 2nd Ill Omen in the same round. I am assuming that Ill Omen's effects don't stack.
So a few things. Scrolls (and wands) are always at least a standard action to activate.
Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.
Plausible Pseudonym is correct that Ill Omen can be negated with a move action, which is why you don't allow that to happen. What do I mean? Readied Actions or Delayed Actions. BBEG readies an action to cast his spell after his mook casts Ill Omen on the target. Or he delays until just after his mook goes and takes his entire turn. Delay allows you to change your initiative order and sneak yourself in to any part of the turn, so even if the target would have gone after the mook you can slip in between them and use your spell before the target ever has a chance to use a move action.
So, it's worth noting that caster level is really that important for landing the spell. It will help you get over spell resistance, its good for increasing the damage of damage dealing spells. However, caster level doesn't affect save DCs.If you're dogpiling them with mooks you could also take a look at the Coven hex. Instead of ten easily saved spells you can do one spell at +9 CL. It also could make for some fun storytelling as the mooks gradually power up the death star via aid another.
If you're up for some trickeration you could hit them with hollow heroism or greater hollow heroism from a "friendly" witch.
This is a good point.
To salvage the tactic, coven works with hexes as well as spells. At level 14/15 the witch has access to major hexes such as Ice Tomb, Harrowing Curse, Waxen Image, and for tieflings Steal Voice.
A melee magus can debuff with Arcane Strike+Riving Strike for -2 to save and Cornugon Smash to apply Shaken for another -2. Then start trying to debuffing with spells, such as Sickening Strikes (fort save or Sickened for 1 minute) or Maximized Enervation (which is pretty easy to do with a trait or a rod and debuffs saves by -4, no save).
I'd do a magus with Magical Lineage (Enervation) or even Spell Perfection (Enervation). Riving Strike+Cornugon Smash+Maximized Enervation is -8 to all saves, and if you crit the Enervation doubles (take the Arcana that allows you to use rays on Spellstrike in melee). With a crit it's -12 to saves for a round. Abuse that.
Lunias>> as to Enervation... they're walking around with a Lords Banner of Crusades which contains a hallow effect in which is placed a Death Ward spell effect (40 foot radius per the banner's aura) ; so enervation isn't going to be very efficient unless the item is dispelled/deactivated first. ; The monk is wearing it on his back as a banner carrier, so it is in plain sight. But it gets a bit cheezy to target it specifically. (in a previous encounter with a Nightshade Nightcrawler + Nightskitter) ; the nightskitter had webbed the area which acts as an unhallow aura and as such their death ward got nullified in the warded area accordingly.
But don't want to make a habbit out of letting the baddies know the parties tactics in advance all the time. (Already had one of them use a Legend lore spell on them once) ; the party doesn't do their research, doesn't mean it's not a tool the bad guys can't use of course.