Wonder Woman


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Why it gives you an adrenaline rush

Sovereign Court

OK, seen the movie. It is fun. I didn't waste my money on a movie ticket. Gal was beyond gorgeous and managed to muster up acting chops to give the role gravitas. Side characters were fun. Villain was interesting and surprising. All in all a good movie, better than BvS by a hefty margin and marginally better than Man of Steel.

Nothing to scare the marvel guys though. Plus I don't get all the fanfare and pomp. It's not THAT good.


I liked it better than most Marvel movies.

Sovereign Court

Different strokes...

Sovereign Court

I thought it was well cast and executed. The only knock I can give it is it felt like Thor 1 meets Cap Am. 1. Though at this point how do you get around feeling derivative in the supers genre?

Dark Archive

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Spoiler:
I loved the beginning. I liked the middle. And then the end kind of stepped all over the messages of the first 2/3rds, the CGI was terrible, and there was some miscasting that made things even less climactic than they should have been, IMO.

Every review I read throws all sorts of praise at Gal Gadot (richly deserved!) and Chris Pine (who was a wooden lump of boring in this movie, and almost surgically extracted 'wonder' from every scene he was in. I know he can act. I've seen him act, but he was acting like a concussed zombie this entire movie. The writing did him no favors, I'll admit. One is not going to win an Oscar with lines like 'huh' and 'that's neat.').

But the fight on the island? Gorgeous and tragic. Every time an thousand-year old amazon dies, I cringe. Everytime one does something epic like fling herself off a cliff or flip in midair and shoot three guys with three arrows in one shot, such joy!

The walk across No Man's Land was, IMO, made much stronger by all the lead up, all the times Diana is visibly affected by sights of wounded men or retreating soldiers with thousand-yard stares or struggling refugees, and dragged forward because 'she can't save everyone' until she finally puts her foot down and says, 'but I'm doing *this!*' Great scene. It wasn't just a power walk for the sake of a power walk, there was an actual journey up to that moment, and it paid off.

And then the ending. Bad CGI (even kept mostly hidden by darkness, it's still bad), an actor who is only slightly more threatening than the eight-year old girl who played Diana in the first act, and the woman who can 'end a war with love' punching her way through the final act like she's the damned Batman. Wait, wasn't that the theme of the movie, that Wonder Woman rocks because she can punch face really hard and that even more violence is the answer to stopping war? Meh.

Plus, even if the CGI had been better, and they'd cast an actor for Ares who looked even a *tiny* bit like a Greek god of war, the end fight was just odd. He levitates and throws stuff at her telekinetically? What, does he think this is the end of an X-Man movie, and he's Jean Grey and / or Magneto? Wouldn't the god of war actually know how to fight?

It was a great movie, until it wasn't.


Pan wrote:
I thought it was well cast and executed. The only knock I can give it is it felt like Thor 1 meets Cap Am. 1. Though at this point how do you get around feeling derivative in the supers genre?

Well, not exactly non-derivative, but I think it's high time somebody did . . .

* * * * * * * * The Adventures of Normalman * * * * * * * *

Sovereign Court

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Pan wrote:
I thought it was well cast and executed. The only knock I can give it is it felt like Thor 1 meets Cap Am. 1. Though at this point how do you get around feeling derivative in the supers genre?

Well, not exactly non-derivative, but I think it's high time somebody did . . .

* * * * * * * * The Adventures of Normalman * * * * * * * *

Actually, I think that's why Antman was such a hit. Antman is just a guy who has made some mistakes and wants to be better. Not another Achilles or Hercules figure.


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I thought Wonder Woman was fantastic. As played by Gal Gadot, the character Diana struck the perfect balance between fun, seriousness, idealism, incredulity at unfairness, and a willingness to risk everything to do the right thing.

WW is easily in my top 5 superhero movies of all time.

I've watched it on the big screen three times now (once in 3D... which I didn't think added very much).

My only critique was that the villains were boring, and the final 20 minutes were yet more uninspired CGI "stuff go BOOM!" that was full of phrenetic visuals with next-to-no character developement or emotional impact.

A more fitting ending (with spoilers for the actual movie):
I thought a better ending would have been that Ares was a metaphor for humanity's propensity toward violence rather than the literal God of War.

In my version: After Steve's speech following the death of Gen. Ludendorff, Diana comes to the realization that Ares isn't a literal god she must slay, but a concept that must be overcome. She realizes that she must be an example to the world of the kind of person that can overcome humanity's warlike tendencies.

No CGI green-screen pyrotechnics for the final act, just some more amazing fight choreography as Diana single-handedly fights an army then defeats Dr. Poison. Include a scene where Diana and Steve have a final moment where she doesn't quite realize that Steve intends to sacrifice himself to end the war.

I would have liked that Act III a lot better. And it probably would have been cheaper to film.


Hama wrote:
OK, seen the movie. It is fun. I didn't waste my money on a movie ticket. Gal was beyond gorgeous and managed to muster up acting chops to give the role gravitas. Side characters were fun. Villain was interesting and surprising. All in all a good movie, better than BvS by a hefty margin and marginally better than Man of Steel.

Ugh. I HATED Man of Steel, a film I had been very much looking forward to. The film rejected everything about the character of Superman than made him special, and instead made him a dark and gritty Batman rip-off who was a complete a-hole. Man of Steel was by far and away my least favorite major superhero movie ever...

...until I saw Batman v. Superman, which pretty much ties Man of Steel in how much I hated it. The only thing I liked about BvS was the inclusion Wonder Woman... and she had less than 7 minutes of screen time.

Dark Archive

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Haladir wrote:
I thought Wonder Woman was fantastic. As played by Gal Gadot, the character Diana struck the perfect balance between fun, seriousness, idealism, incredulity at unfairness, and a willingness to risk everything to do the right thing.

She was amazing. And the girl playing young Diana was cute as heck. (The teenage Diana we briefly saw made zero impression on me.)

What struck me about the end is that it was all about punching and fighting.

Spoiler:
Ares was supposed to be the god of war, not the god of senseless butchery, or dudes huddled around in holes in the ground waiting to be poisoned to death, or starve, or whatever. Everything going on there was utterly antithetical to the sorts of glorious bloody struggle and conflict that Ares lived for, back in the day. I kind of wanted the lasso of truth to play a part in forcing Ares to admit that he *hated* all this poison gas and trench warfare and people hiding in holes from machines and chemicals instead of charging into glorious combat, which would be decided by strength and bravery and red-blooded lust for glory and victory. By reminding Ares of what he was, and what he wanted from war, what he gloried in and thrived upon, and how this cold bleak mechanical butchery was exactly not it, Diana could have convinced him to walk away and stop supporting it. (And inadvertently setting the stage for WW2: Electric Boogaloo, where Ares tries for an encore with less poison gas and more storming the beaches of Normandy...)

I wanted a Wonder Woman who could 'turn a hawk into a dove, win a war with love' (and freely acknowledge that such a thing would probably be a huge dud to audiences that would be utterly baffled by the very concept of non-violent conflict resolution) and instead I got one whose solution was not materially different than *Deadpool.*


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Set wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Re: Ares.

Yeah, he was out of character. But so was Zeus the arch-rapist being presented as the benevolent creator of humanity and as patron of the Amazons. Once Hippolyta did her info-dump, I knew the mythology wasn't going to jive.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I actually don't think that depiction of Ares is that out of character with the original myths. Ares in many Greek cities WAS considered a brutish butcher and vulture, not some sort of honorable god of glory in war. The ancient Greeks, at least some of them, understood War to be a bloody horrible thing, not something to be considered great. There is a good reason why Ares was accompanied by the godly manifestations of Fear (Phobos), Terror (Deimos), and Discord.

Athena was more often seen to be a "good" war God, as she was all about strategy.

Sovereign Court

Plus Ares hates humans and wants to exterminate them, WW1 would be something he would greatly enjoy.


Set wrote:

Spoiler:
{. . .}

And then the ending. Bad CGI (even kept mostly hidden by darkness, it's still bad), an actor who is only slightly more threatening than the eight-year old girl who played Diana in the first act, and the woman who can 'end a war with love' punching her way through the final act like she's the damned Batman. Wait, wasn't that the theme of the movie, that Wonder Woman rocks because she can punch face really hard and that even more violence is the answer to stopping war? Meh. {. . .}

Spoiler:
Well, that's the thing -- Ares DOESN'T look like what you would expect. Everybody was expecting him to be a martial, but he turns out to be a caster. Nice twist. Although I can't help but feel that he shouldn't have gone down that easily, or that maybe he should appear to go down that easily, but actually have escaped, like Loki in the Marvel movies that have Thor . . . .

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Mark Thomas 66 wrote:
Why it gives you an adrenaline rush

The music in WW is pretty good, and other than a couple exceptions from the Nolan Batman series, is probably the best comic book score (excluding previously famous songs) in quite a while This video has a really good breakdown of what is wrong with movie music today.

They start off with a "man on the street" series of interviews and asking people to hum any music from a Marvel movie. Then they explain why you can't remember any piece of music from them.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Set wrote:
Haladir wrote:
I thought Wonder Woman was fantastic. As played by Gal Gadot, the character Diana struck the perfect balance between fun, seriousness, idealism, incredulity at unfairness, and a willingness to risk everything to do the right thing.

She was amazing. And the girl playing young Diana was cute as heck. (The teenage Diana we briefly saw made zero impression on me.)

What struck me about the end is that it was all about punching and fighting.

** spoiler omitted **

I wanted a Wonder Woman who could 'turn a hawk into a dove, win a war with love' (and freely acknowledge that such a thing would probably be a huge dud to audiences that would be utterly baffled by the very concept of non-violent conflict resolution) and instead I got one whose solution was not materially different than *Deadpool.*

Yeah but in Greek Mythology Ares represents the ugly brutality of war. Athena is more glorious heroic battle. Ares is war for war's sake. Athena is warfare with a purpose.


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Not only that, but Ares is typically a coward who manipulates behind the scenes and lets others actually fight and suffer.

Mars, the Roman version, was the brave warrior god.


Eh whenever I think ares I think Kevin smith. (not Silent bob)


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I wonder if the people complaining about the liberties taken with the Olympians also complain about the Marvel take on the Norse gods, because of the two the latter is immensely farther from the source material.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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But then again that's why Stan Lee did Thor in the first place. The average reader thinks they know Greek mythology well. Most people know next to nothing about Norse mythology, giving writers far more leeway before someone protests.


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If you look at Bulfinch as a source, whenever Ares was wounded in battle (the Iliad) he would run away and hide in a large urn in Zeus' throne room.


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Spoiler:
Note how Ares resembles the people who order soldiers to go to war and fight and die, rather than looking like the soldiers.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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^^^^^THIS!


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While I liked it, I felt like they were leading up to an ending that at the last minute they pulled away and replaced it with a big special effects laden dumb fight. That also spoiled the overall message of the movie in the process.

Spoilers:
So really, why did this movie even NEED Ares? To me, the movie was about Diana's naivety and her coming grips with the grey world the humans actually fight over. All these amazons, they tell stories of gods and how Ares made them bad. Then she wants to go out there and save the world by just killing the bad guy.

But the world does not work like that. You cannot save the world by just killing the bad ones. But the message instead is summed up in the early dialog with Diana and Steve when he talks about his motive to the war. You can either do nothing, or do something. Even if Diana has to face the fact that humans can all be very bad, she can do good. Like a superhero ought to, be better than those she has to save. Steve can save the day, but superhero Wonder Woman can save ALL THE DAYS. Even if it never ends.

The whole "save the world with love" just muddles this point with its vagueness. The movie did not need Ares to be real. It could had just been all mush fairy tales fed to Diana.


But, we like the mush.


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Interesting Vox article on the importance of Wonder Woman's second act.

I think the author has a really good point, and think this is a big reason why certain movies are failing to connect with audiences. Marvel's movies have a lot of flaws, but as the author points out, they follow the formula of the three act structure, so they're easy to grasp and build a story that makes sense to audiences. Batman V. Superman in comparison is almost entirely setup, then it's just a super long climax. The problem is it didn't build up from anything, so that ending provides little satisfaction.

The downside for Wonder Woman is that the third act was poor, but because the second act was so good, we still leave the movie satisfied to a larger degree. The second act gets us invested in Diana's evolution that we want to see the new her kick some butt.

Envall wrote:

While I liked it, I felt like they were leading up to an ending that at the last minute they pulled away and replaced it with a big special effects laden dumb fight. That also spoiled the overall message of the movie in the process.

** spoiler omitted **

He didn't need to be real, but this is a comic book movie, they don't deal in that level of metaphor. It's kind of a standard of the genre, that characters are the metaphor, and so need to exist and interact with things.

I agree that it felt like a major tone shift. I think it would have been very possible to have that confrontation, but completely rework him into something that actually pushed Diana into reinforcing her choices and desired role as protector and savior of humanity. Ares as manipulator and deceiver could have done that more effectively. Instead we got an undefined mash-up of super powers that just wanted to use talking as a way to stall so he could smash more things.


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From one of my Native American feeds, a translation of the Blackfoot conversation between Chief and Diana (which was inexplicably not subtitled in the movie):

"Even better, he introduced himself as Napi, the Blackfoot demi-god who is known as a trickster and a storyteller."

So maybe we've got a new demigod in the canon?

I am Napi


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Eugene Brave Rock confirmed it: link.


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Batfleck was the best thing about BvS, rivaled only by WW.

Chief was the best thing about WW, rivaled only by WW.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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CrystalSeas wrote:

From one of my Native American feeds, a translation of the Blackfoot conversation between Chief and Diana (which was inexplicably not subtitled in the movie):

"Even better, he introduced himself as Napi, the Blackfoot demi-god who is known as a trickster and a storyteller."

So maybe we've got a new demigod in the canon?

I am Napi

Just when I thought I couldn't love that movie more.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CrystalSeas wrote:

"Even better, he introduced himself as Napi, the Blackfoot demi-god who is known as a trickster and a storyteller."

So maybe we've got a new demigod in the canon?

Certainly explains why he was the only one whose hand she shook when they first met...


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Finally saw this today, worth seeing twice in theater which I don't say often.


I was pleasantly surprised with the final product. An excellent popcorn movie!

Scarab Sages

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Last night's returns put Wonder Woman as the highest grossing domestic of the DCEU. It edged out BvS's total box office (84 day run) in 28 days. Congrats DC for making a good movie!

Sovereign Court

Decent movie TBH. But I enjoyed watching it.

Dark Archive

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archmagi1 wrote:
Last night's returns put Wonder Woman as the highest grossing domestic of the DCEU. It edged out BvS's total box office (84 day run) in 28 days. Congrats DC for making a good movie!

Good for them. The better Wonder Woman does, the more likely I am to ever see Vixen or Black Canary or Monica Rambeau or Moondragon or Snowbird or any of the awesome ladies of the Legion of Super-Heroes appear on the big-screen.

And the more Avi 'fans don't want to see movies about strong women' Arad can suck it.


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Set wrote:
And the more Avi 'fans don't want to see movies about strong women' Arad can suck it.

Yeah, I look at the lackluster Inhumans trailer while I'm still waiting for Captain Marvel... or a Black Widow movie, or...


Ambrosia,

I REALLY hope Captain Marvel can match this great female move.

Sovereign Court

It's marvel, it's gonna top it.


Doubtful. They've been trying hard and still haven't topped IM1 or CA:TFA, the only movies that are better than WW or MoS.


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Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Doubtful. They've been trying hard and still haven't topped IM1 or CA:TFA, the only movies that are better than WW or MoS.

?

By MoS, do you mean Man of Steel? The 2013 Zack Snyder & David Goyer suckfest of broody manpain film?!

?!

Superman Returns was a better movie and more enjoyable than Man of Steel.

Scarab Sages

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That's a big ymmv. There are at least 4 films I find better than Captain America 1.

Dark Archive

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Ambrosia,

I REALLY hope Captain Marvel can match this great female move.

My knee-jerk assumption is that Wonder Woman will be better than Captain Marvel.

On the other hand, Captain Marvel does have the advantage of being a character who doesn't come from a fantasy land where women have never been second-class citizens who have to try harder to get the same recognition, making her perhaps a somewhat more relatable character.

Whether or not that sort of thing even matters, compared to the amazing name-recognition of Diana, and the sheer kick-ass wish fulfillment value of superheroes in general (it's not like men and boys have any problem enjoying alien Superman, demigod Thor or billionaires Batman or Iron Man...), I have no idea, but it's possibly the one thing that Carol Danvers has over the Amazon Princess. (Similarly, it might be the only thing Cyborg has over Black Panther, who, like Diana, comes from a fantasy country where real-world gender/race issues don't exist, and the experience of being a woman/black person in the real-world aren't particularly relevant.)

Unfortunately, there's other stuff that's not so cool, like Carol, in the comics at least, having little agency in her own super-hero origin story. Many male characters invent their own origin (Iron Man, Hulk, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, etc.) while many female (or black) characters have their origin thrust upon them or handed down as a legacy by the white dude that invented it (Wasp, She-Hulk, Carol / Luke Cage, Black Goliath, War Machine, etc.). Obviously there are exceptions (Thor got his hammer handed down by his white dad, all mutants were equally just sort of born with their powers, no white people had anything to do with T'Challa's powers, etc.).

Wonder Woman, in the comics, has historically also earned her powers, by competing with other equally tough and strong and fast Amazons for the right to be Paradise Islands champion to 'man's world.' (Movie Diana, inheriting her powers from a dude, not so much, sadly.) If Carol sticks to the 616 origin, she'll also more or less accidentally get her powers because of a dude (and later get *more* powers, as Binary, because of being captured and experimented on, by yet more (alien) dudes). Perhaps MCU Carol will have more agency in her own empowerment, and they'll avoid this sort of 'women have to get their powers from men' nonsense.


Set,

From what I recall, they are redoing her power origins. But no idea how much of it will be because of Kree or Brood stuff.


Set wrote:
Wonder Woman, in the comics, has historically also earned her powers, by competing with other equally tough and strong and fast Amazons for the right to be Paradise Islands champion to 'man's world.' (Movie Diana, inheriting her powers from a dude, not so much, sadly.) If Carol sticks to the 616 origin, she'll also more or less accidentally get her powers because of a dude (and later get *more* powers, as Binary, because of being captured and experimented on, by yet more (alien) dudes). Perhaps MCU Carol will have more agency in her own empowerment, and they'll avoid this sort of 'women have to get their powers from men' nonsense.

Wonder Woman's origin has varied, even in the comics. I think, currently, she's the daughter of Zeus, but they could have changed that since I last looked.

They pretty much can't stick with Carol's origin for the movies - way too much backstory. They could use some kind of Kree connection to nod to the early part of it, but they're not going to introduce Mar-vell as a hero just to have him die or vanish to give Carol an origin.
I'd also quibble with calling the Brood (parasitic hive society ruled by queens) "alien dudes".


thejeff,

You'd prefer "Xenomorph rip-offs?"


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Thomas Seitz wrote:

thejeff,

You'd prefer "Xenomorph rip-offs?"

Well, that too, but it was more the "dudes" part. Damned if I know how to sex a Sleazoid. I'd have to reread that sequence to see if there were any clues, but I kind of assumed at the time they followed the common social insect pattern where the workers/soldiers were actually sterile females.

Regardless, normal human gender assumptions and roles don't apply. OTOH, it still leaves Carol with her powers thrust upon her.

Nor is that even the creepiest thing to happen her - Marcus?

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:

Regardless, normal human gender assumptions and roles don't apply. OTOH, it still leaves Carol with her powers thrust upon her.

Nor is that even the creepiest thing to happen her - Marcus?

Ugh. What a horrible story. Thank goodness it's not referenced every single time she appears, like that time Hank slapped Janet.

But yeah, I prefer women (and minorities) to have less 'some dude / white person / external agency gave me my powers.'

Not every single one of them needs to be a self-made hero (Spider-Man sure isn't, he got bit, Flash sure didn't, he got hit by lightning, Green Lantern get's his powers from a ring some alien dude gave him, without even buying him dinner first!), but a better cross-section would be nice, or, just to completely flip the applecart, a male character who gets his powers from a woman (like the mythological Achilles or Baldar, both of whom got their invulnerability because of something their mom did) or a white character who gets geared up / empowered by a black inventor.

In a genre positively crawling with female legacies of male heroes (Supergirls, Batgirls, Batwomen, Mary Marvel, Miss Martian, Aquagirls, She-Hulk, Spider-Women, Spider-Girls, etc., etc.) it would also be cool to see some male legacies of female heroes. Surely, somewhere in the world, there's a young *man* who has found Wonder Woman or Storm inspiring?

It seems like the only way a female hero can inspire a male legacy character is if her uterus is their origin story. (Franklin Richards, Nate Grey, Wiccan, etc. two out of the three of which technically weren't 'born' to their 'mothers' thanks to magic and / or time travel weirdness, but still...)


*tries VERY hard to blot out Marcus for Carol and Phantom Rider for Bobbi*

I am hopeful for some kind of "Kree/Brood experiment thingie" and she gets super powers. But we'll see.

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