Philadelphia DNC 2016


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Grey Lensman wrote:
Pan wrote:
One thing I noticed is that several times during Obama's speech he got distracted by screaming delegates. Not sure what they were saying but his reaction was as if it was something awful. At some point he was finally able to tune it out and get on with his say.
I read that Sanders had a lot of trouble getting people willing to be delegates for him, as many Democrats weren't willing. He had to turn to the further left protest movements, and it is showing in the shouting.

I think many of the Sanders supporters like me weren't necessarily further left, but just didn't trust Clinton (or as indicated above, think she has some really elitist privilege which everyone else is excluded from).

In fact, the only reason to support Clinton now is so that Trump doesn't become President.

Why is that important...because I hear he has this thing where he wants to deport me (and anyone else that has my background) or kill me...or put me in a camp...whatever fixes his fancy that day.

People may look at it as a Muslim thing, but in reality, and how I see things go many times, it doesn't matter whether you are Muslim or not, merely on whether you have background from Southwest Asia or not (and it is assumed automatically what your beliefs and ideas are whether they are or not).

He sounds rather scary talking about some people.

But that doesn't mean those who supported Sanders like the idea of Supporting Clinton, or even like Clinton, it's just that the alternative sounds worse right now.

Sovereign Court

I think Hilary just reps the status quo and both righties and lefties are tired of it. Hilary fought off the extremes, and Trump capitalized on them. I guess we will see who wins in November.

**Though win or lose, I dont always agree with you greywolflord, but ill fight to the death for your right to say your peace; right here in America.


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GreyWolfLord wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:
Pan wrote:
One thing I noticed is that several times during Obama's speech he got distracted by screaming delegates. Not sure what they were saying but his reaction was as if it was something awful. At some point he was finally able to tune it out and get on with his say.
I read that Sanders had a lot of trouble getting people willing to be delegates for him, as many Democrats weren't willing. He had to turn to the further left protest movements, and it is showing in the shouting.

I think many of the Sanders supporters like me weren't necessarily further left, but just didn't trust Clinton (or as indicated above, think she has some really elitist privilege which everyone else is excluded from).

In fact, the only reason to support Clinton now is so that Trump doesn't become President.

Why is that important...because I hear he has this thing where he wants to deport me (and anyone else that has my background) or kill me...or put me in a camp...whatever fixes his fancy that day.

People may look at it as a Muslim thing, but in reality, and how I see things go many times, it doesn't matter whether you are Muslim or not, merely on whether you have background from Southwest Asia or not (and it is assumed automatically what your beliefs and ideas are whether they are or not).

He sounds rather scary talking about some people.

But that doesn't mean those who supported Sanders like the idea of Supporting Clinton, or even like Clinton, it's just that the alternative sounds worse right now.

Or those Sanders supporters like me who are farther left and liked Sanders because of his policies, but will quite happily support Clinton for president. I think she'll make a good president - not the transformational one we do really need, but a good competent workhorse of a President. In many ways she'll probably do better than Sanders would have - as much as I like his ideas and policies, I'm not actually convinced of his ability to do the job.

I'm sure, like Obama before her, there will be times I despise her and times I love her. Every Democratic President I remember has given me reason for both.

Pan wrote:
I think Hilary just reps the status quo and both righties and lefties are tired of it. Hilary fought off the extremes, and Trump capitalized on them. I guess we will see who wins in November.

There's some truth in that, though I reiterate that there are far fewer lefties tired of her than it might seem - at least if you're counting those who might have been reachable for Democrats at all. The vast majority of the Bernie rebellion has come around and far from all of them just out of fear of Trump.

That's actually what I loved about this convention. They actually made the case for Clinton, not just "Omigod Trump is scary." There were some attacks on him of course, but nothing like the constant refrain of "Lock her up" from Cleveland.


Normally I don't follow the conventions, but I did watch Hillary's speech tonight. I thought it was pretty solid at portraying a different style of campaign while also pitching this election as less about Dem versus Republican, but Her versus Trump. I will gladly admit my excitement for her is driven by my complete hatred of Trump, who might be the least qualified and suitable candidate put forward by a major party in living memory.

I do think she will be a solid president though, just maybe not the most exciting one.

I really want to see a Trump versus Hillary debate, but not sure if Trump will risk it. I think she would utterly destroy him in a fair debate.


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MMCJawa wrote:


I really want to see a Trump versus Hillary debate, but not sure if Trump will risk it. I think she would utterly destroy him in a fair debate.

If you're scoring it yes, but if reason rational evidence or sene entered into it trump wouldn't have made it this far. getting up there and just insulting her and babling incoherently worked surprisingly well for Palin VS Biden and trump is way better at it.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
There's some truth in that, though I reiterate that there are far fewer lefties tired of her than it might seem - at least if you're counting those who might have been reachable for Democrats at all. The vast majority of the Bernie rebellion has come around and far from all of them just out of fear of Trump.

I think their pretty tired. The "walk the walk" signs and bernie's resting pissed face proves they dont have much choice. They will be ready to make life hell for Hilary if she doesnt work to the left like they expect.

thejeff wrote:
That's actually what I loved about this convention. They actually made the case for Clinton, not just "Omigod Trump is scary." There were some attacks on him of course, but nothing like the constant refrain of "Lock her up" from Cleveland.

This I can agree on. I actually appreciated the diverse group of speakers. Michelle Obama and Captain Khan's father where my highlights.

Liberty's Edge

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Ok, this is a little weird...

Did the Democratic Party tent just expand to try and cover everyone from democratic socialists to Roosevelt Republicans? And become the snti-Russia party too?

Ok, someone stop the world, I need to get off.


Don't forget your towel!


Ford Prefect wrote:
Don't forget your towel!

I generally leave in the closet with the rest of my travel gear. Probably why I take vacations to Bavoria.


yep...the cuts over to Bernie Sanders felt super awkward. Bernie didn't enjoy his evening at all I don't think

Silver Crusade

From the snippets I saw I was disappointed. "Trump bad. Hillary human. Trump bad. Hillary human." I was hoping for a little more substance and details. Admittably I only saw a little bit, so if there was substantial policy discussions at the DNC I may have missed them.


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Ajaxis wrote:
From the snippets I saw I was disappointed. "Trump bad. Hillary human. Trump bad. Hillary human." I was hoping for a little more substance and details. Admittably I only saw a little bit, so if there was substantial policy discussions at the DNC I may have missed them.

Conventions are places for speeches, not discussions. Even detailed policy proposals are rare at conventions. Even the better policy stuff tends to be more inspirational, "Here's what we want to do and why", rather than details of how it's going to be done.

There was a lot of focus on humanizing Clinton, which given the demonization of her is a good thing. Less on Trump, though that was obviously another focus.
Certainly compared to the meager attempts to humanize Trump and vilify Clinton at the RNC.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MMCJawa wrote:
yep...the cuts over to Bernie Sanders felt super awkward. Bernie didn't enjoy his evening at all I don't think

Yeah, I have empathy for the guy. He got close, coulda been him up there.


Kryzbyn wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
yep...the cuts over to Bernie Sanders felt super awkward. Bernie didn't enjoy his evening at all I don't think
Yeah, I have empathy for the guy. He got close, coulda been him up there.

And he won't get another shot at it. It would be at least eight years before he could have a chance. If Hillary wins, she'd almost automatically be the candidate again for the Democratic Party in 2020. And if Trump wins, there probably wouldn't be any democratic elections in the US in 2020 or later.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ridiculous. Come now, you're not supposed to be the party of fear, remember?


Trump is many things, but capable of pulling off the coup d'etat that would be required is not one of them.


Trump is repeatedly on the record for his admiration of dictators. And not just for how they attack terrorists, but how they eliminate all opposition.

Some of the dictators he idolizes:
Mussolini
Putin
Kim Jon-un
Gadahfi
Saddam Hussein

Food for thought if you think it couldn't happen here:

“In many ways Nazism was antithetical to what the great mass of Germans said they admired – and certainly to what they paid homage. It was noisy, undisciplined, vainglorious; its leader was a half-educated posturing foreigner. For a decade the National Socialists were regarded as hoodlums, as part of the breakdown of what had been, if anything, an excessively ordered society before.”
Eugene Davidson, historian
“Nazism seemed to many just an extreme version of what [most Germans] had always believed in or taken for granted. It was nationalistic, respectful of the armed forces, socially conservative, disdainful of laziness, hostile to eccentric or incomprehensive ideas that came from cities, disapproving of homosexuals and other unconventional human types, and avid to achieve ‘greatness’ for Germany. They welcomed parts of the Nazi political and social smorgasbord and told themselves that the rest was less important or was not meant seriously.
Walter Rinderle and Bernard Norling, historians
“For their concept of the heroic leader, the Nazis turned once again to volkisch thought and the notion of Fuhrerprinzip, of a mystical figure embodying and guiding the nation’s destiny… The roots and antecedents of such a concept are more complex and derive from many sources: the messianic principle of Christianity, the kings of the Middle Ages, the Nietzschean ‘superman’ of volkisch mythology.”
David Welch, historian
“Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death.”
Adolf Hitler

I don't think it is so ridiculous. And I am not a Democrat.

Liberty's Edge

That's when he calls up his buddy Poutine for some little green men.


markofbane wrote:

Trump is repeatedly on the record for his admiration of dictators. And not just for how they attack terrorists, but how they eliminate all opposition.

[...]

I don't think it is so ridiculous. And I am not a Democrat.

Well, opinions can differ. I don't think it's practical (i.e., I think it's ridiculous) not because Trump himself would somehow be opposed to becoming dictator-for-life of the United States, but because he doesn't have sufficient control (even) of his own party to take that level of control of the States.

For example, to use the almost clichéd Hitler example, he (Hitler) was able to use the Reichstag fire, first, to declare a state of emergency that allowed him to remove most of his opponents from government, and then the Reichstag passed a constitutional amendment giving Hitler's office plenary powers and essentially making the Reichstag itself irrelevant.

Trump himself couldn't do that; the checks and balances in the US system (unlike the Weimar Constitution) are too robust. There's no way for the President to declare such a state of emergency on his own authority, and, although Congress and the president together could, Trump doesn't actually have any support in among Republican politicians. It's possible for the Republicans in Congress (in theory) to expel the Democrats, but I don't see them actually being willing to do that -- and even if they did that, I doubt they'd vote for their own irrelevance.

... and, even if they did that, to amend the US constitution requires votes by individual state legislatures.

The kind of political transformation you're talking about takes a well-organized party to pull off, with detailed tasks happening at every level and every branch of government. Trump, as we've seen, can't even pull off a well-organized nominating convention....


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
markofbane wrote:
I am not a Democrat.

Then fearmonger on!


Krensky wrote:
That's when he calls up his buddy Poutine for some little green men.

And Uncle Sam's Green Machine is just supposed to stand by when this happens?

This kind of gets back to my point in the previous post. Trump doesn't have particularly widespread support in the (US) Armed Forces, although probably more than in the population at large. And most of the soldiers I know take their oath "to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" fairly seriously.

To pull off the kind of political transformation you're taking about takes more depth on the bench than Trump has. Trump couldn't even get any A-list politicians to endorse him at the convention....


why republicans are worried


I wouldn't put it past Trump to declare himself dictator for life...but I think it's a little premature to call off the 2020 elections... ;-)


The Hitler/Nazi ascension references conveniently leave out that they ascended to power during ridiculously bad economic times.

The US is not in the throes of a Great Depression, let alone on the receiving end of a Treaty of Versailles in combination with a Great Depression.

The recovery rate since the Great Repression is at an anemic rate, but we don't have 25%-33% unemployment across the board. The GDP hasn't fallen 5% a year for 3 years (compared to the 1% total GDP drop of the Great Recession). Industrial production hasn't dropped 46%. Wholesale prices haven't dropped by a third. Foreign trade hasn't dropped by 70%. And so on.

The circumstances are presently not sufficiently brutal to enable anything along the lines of an ascent to power.

Could it happen? Sure. Is it presently likely? No.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed the "baby-eating" comments and hyperbole surrounding Hitler. Folks, let's get the rails back on this thread, please.


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Trump disowns involvement in the Cleveland convention: "I didn’t produce our show. I just showed up for final speech"

Apparently doesn't like that the DNC ran so much smoother and got better ratings.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

LOL @ smoother


thejeff wrote:

Trump disowns involvement in the Cleveland convention: "I didn’t produce our show. I just showed up for final speech"

Apparently doesn't like that the DNC ran so much smoother and got better ratings.

And this is the man that markofbane suggests is going to rewrite the American electoral system? Who's he going to outsource THAT to?


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I don't see how anyone without a yuuuuge amount of bias could fail to see that the DNC ran smoother. Minimal protests, actual celebrities instead of the guy from Duck Dynasty, and a hell of a lot of wonderful speeches.

The RNC, meanwhile, tried to get Justin Bieber. He agreed only on the condition that he be allowed to perform in front of BLM flags. They didn't get Justin Bieber.


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Also, I will just point out that nobody thought Hitler could get anything done, either. The trouble was, too many people thought they could use him for their own political ends. Too many people thought he was just a quasi-useful thug.

Trump could get a Muslim ban passed, if it's up to the Republicans. And if he can do that, what can't he do? I could see him demanding we delay elections "just until we figure out what's going on". Trump is warping our standards for what is acceptable. If he wins, he'll have 4-8 years in which to do so.

No, it's not likely. But Trump is a legitimately terrifying figure. I'm not ruling anything out of a candidate so willing to pander to hatred and antisemitism.

We have not been this close in a long time.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I don't see how anyone without a yuuuuge amount of bias could fail to see that the DNC ran smoother. Minimal protests, actual celebrities instead of the guy from Duck Dynasty, and a hell of a lot of wonderful speeches.

The RNC, meanwhile, tried to get Justin Bieber. He agreed only on the condition that he be allowed to perform in front of BLM flags. They didn't get Justin Bieber.

Not to mention no major gaffes. No unvetted plagiarized speeches. No political rivals onstage refusing to endorse the candidate.

Not at all sure what Kryzbyn's laughing at.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:


The RNC, meanwhile, tried to get Justin Bieber. He agreed only on the condition that he be allowed to perform in front of BLM flags. They didn't get Justin Bieber.

.. do you have any idea how badly you have to mess up for the phrase "Go Justin Beiber" to be a rational response?

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